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  #1  
Old 02-20-2011, 04:09 PM
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Location: where I grew up in West Central Idaho surrounded with Mountains and game from Elk to antelop, plus preditors. A lot of Forest Service Land
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45 Judgement Day 2.36 inch


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45 Judgment Day 2.36 in. Wildcat

Do you want to help develop a new Wildcat?

This load could be the favorite pet load for every 45LColt/410 out there not just in my cheap gun. I just found a 2.36 in case* and am now looking for a reduced load for it. I do want to push a 285gr bullet, but at a safe velocity/pressure. A safe reduced load is far harder to find than a higher velocity loads. Reduced loads with the wrong power are dangerous. I have talked this to death and asked powder companies and several times in forums. I have had no luck in finding a safe load range with the recently found 2.36 in case. The standard load would be around 800 fps at less than 12,000 psi and the +P load would be loaded up to Judge specifications say 1100 fps in a 8 inch revolver.

The +P load might be 27 gr. of Accurate or 60% case loaded with bullet seated of Trail Boss. That is put enough Trail Boss powder in the case up to where the bullet would be seat down to. Weigh that powder and take the amount of gr., multiplied by 0.60 to get a starting load. Load development is suggested to start in a Thompson Contender due to its higher pressure rating.

I assume if I handload at all, I will have to start at moderate velocities such as 1100 fps and work down to a safe reduced load. But before I buy dies and think about handloading for it, I will have to have a safe starting and ending load with the proper powder. If not, I will use factory 45 Colt loads bouncing a bullet 1.4 inches down my 3” chamber, so be it. But, I am looking for a load in a 2.36 case which reduces the jump and bump down to a quarter of an inch vs. 1.4 inch in a 3 in chamber. This case may have to be trimmed for 21/2 in. chambers depending on the bullet seating depth. This load could be the favorite pet load for every 45LColt/410 out there not just in my cheap gun. It is basically a wildcat cartridge.

Comments are welcomed that will help me reach that objective. Till then I will just have to shoot factory as most 45LColt/410 shooters do now and bounce a 45cal slug a long ways before hitting the rifling.

I would appreciate any starting/ending loads that you could offer to reach my goal.

Thanks

Kevin

*Magtech Shotshell Hulls 410 Bore 2-1/2" Brass
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct...tnumber=151679
[email protected]

Last edited by unclenick; 02-24-2011 at 09:13 AM. Reason: condensed 2 posts
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  #2  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:02 PM
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45 X 7.62 x 54R

I have used this one for over twenty years in a 45 Colt/410 Contender barrel. I use 444 Marlin cast bullet equivalent loads which amounts to 300 grain 45 caliber cast bullet ontop of 14 grains of Unique. I know of other men using very heavy loads of 2400 powder, but I won't do that. But I too have used the allbrass shotshell for the same kind of platform. The 7.62 x 54R has much heavier brass for saftey though.
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  #3  
Old 02-20-2011, 08:28 PM
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Location: where I grew up in West Central Idaho surrounded with Mountains and game from Elk to antelop, plus preditors. A lot of Forest Service Land
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45 X 7.62 X 54R
swampdoc


Yours loads seem a lot hotter for the Contender. How accurate are they? How long is the case when fireformed? So why not just use 444 Marlin brass (2.225")? Thanks for the great load ideas.

Yes, I bet the 7.62 X 54R case is stronger but it is only 2.106 long not 2.36. Is that case long enough to produce good accuracy? I want a load mid load of 45Colt range and one for 3 in 410 pressures.

I do not plan on loading to your ++P 45 X 7.62 X 54R loads for the Contender.


I checked 444 Marlin loads and have not found one under 27,000 psi.

Last edited by Kev7griz; 02-20-2011 at 09:14 PM.
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  #4  
Old 02-21-2011, 12:31 AM
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444 Marlin Case trimmed to 2.1 inch or as needed for a max COL of 2.5 with seated and crimped bullet. Use the Max case length for 3 inch chambers.
Bullets from untrimmed cases could range from 0.452 to 0.455 in. diam.

45 Judgment Day (J.D.) 2.5 inch ------- using a 444 Marlin Case or 2.36 case (Magtech brass named as 2.5 in) for a pressure range of 12,000 psi and a max velocity of 900 fps with 265gr. bullet

45 J.D. 3 inch --------- using 2.36 case shotshell brass for pressure range of 12,000 psi and a max velocity of 900 fps with 265 to 285 gr. bullet

45 Judgment Day (J.D.) 2.5 +P ----- using 444 Marlin case or 7.62 X 54 R brass for a pressure range of 14,000 psi+ and velocity of 1,100 fps+ with 285 gr. bullet

45 J.D. 3 inch +P -------- using 444 Marlin Case or 2.36 shotshell brass for a pressure range of 14,000 psi + and velocity of 1,100 fps+ with 285 gr. bullet



Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
For my own 45 Colt/410 Contender barrel; I expand the 7.62X54R up to 35 then 40 then 45 caliber for a 45 Express. In this way I can shoot heavy cast bullets without them having to "jump" into the rifling. Sorry but I can't give out loading info online, but a 300 grain cast, over a helfty load of 2400 is an excellentdeer and hog load. Anyway, this was my solution for trying to get decent accuracy out of this barrel45 X 7.62 x 54R

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have used this one for over twenty years in a 45 Colt/410 Contender barrel. I use 444 Marlin cast bullet equivalent loads which amounts to 300 grain 45 caliber cast bullet ontop of 14 grains of Unique. I know of other men using very heavy loads of 2400 powder, but I won't do that. But I too have used the allbrass shotshell for the same kind of platform. The 7.62 x 54R has much heavier brass for saftey though.

45 Express 2.5 – 3 inch +++P ------------ established Wildcat using 7.62 X 54 R brass with a pressure range of 20,000 – 40,000 psi for Contender only!

Powders may include Bullseye of other very fast powders and for the +P loads may include Accurate, Trail Boss (Hodgdon) or 410 bore powder.
Another choice for brass would be something like the 458 RCBS base case for pressures of below 40,000 psi

Last edited by Kev7griz; 02-21-2011 at 09:08 AM.
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  #5  
Old 02-24-2011, 07:36 AM
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45 X 7.62x54R

It has always been a very accurate cartridge with heavier than normal 45 Colt bullets. I admit that my "pet" load seems extreme, but its a mild shooter in my own gun. I robbed the load from a verylight 45/70 plinking load for smallgame which I use in my Super Sixteen 45/70 Contender barrel. I assumed that if it was safe for the 45/70 in my Contender; then it should be safe in the 45 Colt/410 which has an awfull lot of Free Bore for the extra power to dissipate in. It worked. I have shot 3 inch groups at 100 yards with it, and my eleven year old daughter can shoot it quite well. P.S. I'm moving to the Burley area next month. There'll be another Gunnut in Idaho
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  #6  
Old 02-24-2011, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
It has always been a very accurate cartridge with heavier than normal 45 Colt bullets. I admit that my "pet" load seems extreme, but its a mild shooter in my own gun. I robbed the load from a verylight 45/70 plinking load for smallgame which I use in my Super Sixteen 45/70 Contender barrel. I assumed that if it was safe for the 45/70 in my Contender; then it should be safe in the 45 Colt/410 which has an awfull lot of Free Bore for the extra power to dissipate in. It worked. I have shot 3 inch groups at 100 yards with it, and my eleven year old daughter can shoot it quite well. P.S. I'm moving to the Burley area next month. There'll be another Gunnut in Idaho
Welcome to Idaho:

Maybe we could even shoot together sometime!!!

So what pet loads do you have for the 45 Express! Have you chronographed them?

How long are your chambers - 2.5 or 3inch?

This thread came about due to me thinking of the name Judgment Day. I thought it would be something a ammunition company could run with and it would not be confused with the 45 Colt by anyone.

I at first thought of your round as the 45 Contender - put you gave its real name the 45 Express. It is the name that should stick.

Kevin


I am not saying I came up with the idea for any of these cartridges, I just want a special cartridge ready availible to the 45/410. I just came up with suggested pressure loads and the name Judgment Day - that goes well with the Judge pistol.
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  #7  
Old 02-24-2011, 03:40 PM
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45 Judgement Day

My chambers are 3 inch. No I have never chronoed them. I just happened to call it the 45 Express for lack of anything else to call it. Redding made the 30 to 375 expander, but the cases split too often. So Hornady made a 30 to 35 expanderand I got redding to make one for expanding 375 to 45, and now I have all kinds of crazy expanders to play with. I used to make 454 Casull cases from the same case too, but I went back to the full-lenght version, as its lots more fun in the Contender. And I look forward to shooting with someone who has some Good Sense for a change. There are way too many blasters instead of shooters in Florida
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  #8  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
My chambers are 3 inch. No I have never chronoed them. I just happened to call it the 45 Express for lack of anything else to call it. Redding made the 30 to 375 expander, but the cases split too often. So Hornady made a 30 to 35 expanderand I got redding to make one for expanding 375 to 45, and now I have all kinds of crazy expanders to play with. I used to make 454 Casull cases from the same case too, but I went back to the full-lenght version, as its lots more fun in the Contender. And I look forward to shooting with someone who has some Good Sense for a change. There are way too many blasters instead of shooters in Florida

Remmember some of them blasters may have been rich Idaneeeeeeeeeessssssss

I think you are meaning I would be shooting with someone with Good Sence. My Sence is not Common and may be totally wrong at times.

But, I do respect guns and treat even a BB gun or a fake looking gun (some that are actually real) as if it were loaded.


Thanks for the big complement!

Kevin
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  #9  
Old 02-24-2011, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
My chambers are 3 inch. No I have never chronoed them. I just happened to call it the 45 Express for lack of anything else to call it. Redding made the 30 to 375 expander, but the cases split too often. So Hornady made a 30 to 35 expanderand I got redding to make one for expanding 375 to 45, and now I have all kinds of crazy expanders to play with. I used to make 454 Casull cases from the same case too, but I went back to the full-lenght version, as its lots more fun in the Contender. And I look forward to shooting with someone who has some Good Sense for a change. There are way too many blasters instead of shooters in Florida

I forgot to tell you - the passage rights to become a Idaho Resident is to give a gift to an Idaho native (me) JOKING

But I would love to buy some of those 45 Express brass to try at low pressure for accuratecy.

So what do you call a large bullet 400-500 gr? That is probably due to your high velocities, right?

I need a small bullet to keep pressue lower and velocities up (faster than a bowling ball)
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  #10  
Old 02-25-2011, 06:33 AM
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335 grain bullets in 45 Colt

I use the LEE 457/340 Grainer which has been pushed through a 454 LEE sizer. Down here; hogs are everywhere, and a big, slow moving bullet, is all it takes. I never load Wristbreaking loads in any caliber, I instead use heavier bullets for more power. And guess what? There are a bunch of guys from Idaho Falls, Blackfoot, Pocatello, Elba, Twin Falls, etc, all over the place around Tallahassee area. A few Idaho gals have become tainted with Florida sand, and may never go back home.
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  #11  
Old 02-25-2011, 07:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
I use the LEE 457/340 Grainer which has been pushed through a 454 LEE sizer. Down here; hogs are everywhere, and a big, slow moving bullet, is all it takes. I never load Wristbreaking loads in any caliber, I instead use heavier bullets for more power. And guess what? There are a bunch of guys from Idaho Falls, Blackfoot, Pocatello, Elba, Twin Falls, etc, all over the place around Tallahassee area. A few Idaho gals have become tainted with Florida sand, and may never go back home.
I was not clear. What I meant as small was 265gr vs (285 or 320gr) Higher velocities up to around to 900 fps instead of closer to 700 fps (bowling ball speeds) while keeping pressure under 12,000psi

I assumed you were using larger closer to 400gr than under 300gr (265 or 285) and still pushing them around 1600fps at 30,000 psi instead of under 900fps at 12,000psi


Maybe, I need to go there to find a Idaho gal smiles


Thanks for the info

Kevin

Last edited by Kev7griz; 02-25-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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  #12  
Old 02-26-2011, 03:04 PM
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The solution for low pressure load seems to be:

Loading the reduced loads in brass shotshells and using an over powder wad to eliminate any air space between powder and bullet.

So it looks like I will be buying a Mec 600jr shotshell press. Does anyone know of a place to get one second hand?

Thanks

Kevin
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  #13  
Old 03-26-2011, 06:31 PM
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2.36 Judgement Day

I messed up and left my 45/70 Super Sixteen Contender barrel in Florida, but I've got some other stuff with me. On the 7.62X54R case: the Russian brass is junk but Norma brass can last indefinitely. Magtech makes brass 410 shells which use a large rifle or pistol primer, and they'll work with bullets. it will be at least another week until I get to your neck of the woods, but just watch for an old black S-10 with a homemade campershell made of galvanized tin
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2011, 10:21 PM
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Location: where I grew up in West Central Idaho surrounded with Mountains and game from Elk to antelop, plus preditors. A lot of Forest Service Land
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swampdoc View Post
I messed up and left my 45/70 Super Sixteen Contender barrel in Florida, but I've got some other stuff with me. On the 7.62X54R case: the Russian brass is junk but Norma brass can last indefinitely. Magtech makes brass 410 shells which use a large rifle or pistol primer, and they'll work with bullets. it will be at least another week until I get to your neck of the woods, but just watch for an old black S-10 with a homemade campershell made of galvanized tin
so how are you liking the Idaho weather May one day Febuary the next and then back to Rainy March Smiles.

I look forward to seeing you - I just paid my range fees! Would love to see you up this way
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  #15  
Old 03-27-2011, 02:20 AM
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45 J.d.

I've played with 444 Marlin cases trimmed to be a tad shorter than a Blackhawk 45 Colt cylinder. And I've played with combinations of just about anything which could be made to chamber in the 45/410 barrel. I've even made rimless 44-40 cases from 308 brass. But I look forward to helping you with your creation; it sounds like a real winner.
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  #16  
Old 04-02-2011, 09:11 PM
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S&W has the same handgun called the governor , see it athttp://www.smithwesson.com
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