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  #21  
Old 06-29-2011, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William Iorg View Post
I like the Rem Mags for their intended purpose, a short powerful rifle for boats, planes and snow machines. The rifles fill a need.
My pal Fostule could make these wildcats up using a neck reducing die and using a Vickerman seater.
I knew I had the article but had to hunt for it. Here are the pictures.






Great stuff William. I am also somewhat enamored with a new addition as well, the 9.3 BS (Barsness/Sisk) which handles heavier bullets a bit better than the parent .350RM, giving almost 2670 FPS with a 250gr load, 2550 FPS with a 270gr and 2550 with a 286gr. Of course, it's only recently that some U.S. shooters have turned to 9.3s, the tweener that fits between the .358 and .375, and we've seen some good bullets added to the ones from Norma.
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  #22  
Old 06-29-2011, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred243 View Post
Which one would create a bigger chambering issue, the reduced body taper or having a 40 degree shoulder ? Or would it be both equally ? Would having a 30 degree shoulder instead help ?
In a drop-block or break-open action, no issues with the taper or shoulder with respect to feeding/chambering as long as your fingers are coordinated!

In a traditional CRF or otherwise (Rem Mod 700?), taper and shoulder angle will affect feeding smoothness from a magazine that staggers the rounds (some rifle magazines feed from the center position). I've never worked with any 'AI'-type cartridges so I don't know if either taper or shoulder angle have more affect over one or the other in feeding.

Jump into the project and let us know how it goes.
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  #23  
Old 02-25-2012, 06:08 AM
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25BC (25-6.5 Remington Magnum) Ackley Improved 40

I think you are right on the money with this cartridge! It is (IMO) the ideal maximum capacity for the .257 bore.

Action alteration would be minimal (IMO) on a 98 action (open bolt face, adjust the extractor, slim and polish the feed guide).

For the M-48 a slot needs to be cut in the receiver end of the barrel, but this has to be done on any rebarreled M-48)

Ballistically it should perform identically with the 25-06 Ackley Improved in a much smaller OAL.

I am planning a project for this round on a Yugoslav M-48 action (LR98M).

An Ackley Improved version of the 25BC has an OAL just slightly longer than that of the 8mm Mauser cartridge (3.05 vs. 3.01 respectively), so the mag well doesn't need to be touched on an M-48.

By the way, Parker Ackley did not like the 6.5 Remington Magnum or its parent the 350 Remington Magnum, or the 600 Remington rifle. He regarded them as a sales gimmick.

Here is some little known history regarding the 25BC cartridge supplied by Beth at C&H Tool and Die:

"Since you seem fond of the cartridge you may be interested in a bit of its history.

In 1997 Jeff Munnell had me make dies for both the 25 & 6mm on the 6.5 Rem Case.

He commented that the cartridges had been around forever but no one took credit for inventing them so he named them Bastard Child, abbreviated BC"
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  #24  
Old 02-25-2012, 11:31 AM
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LOL, very cool !! Thank you for the info there much appreciated sir. I really really like the 6.5 Rem mag and always have. I've wanted to do this for awhile now and just haven't been able to get anything started yet, hopefully soon though. Thanks again
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  #25  
Old 02-25-2012, 12:32 PM
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twin of 25x284Win.

Dear Fred,
You are really just doing up a belted 25 x 284, which was a short action version of the 25-06. If this was chambered in a Mark X Mauser, like mine, then seating bullets out, gives 25x06 volumes. It's an almost ideal volume cartridge for the 25 bore, with a one in ten twist. You also get some of the short fat case body improvements of Rick Jamison's WSMs.

Norma decided on the slightly larger 6.5 x 284 for their target round, but those bullets are definitely seated out. My main gripe with the 25-284 was the rebated rim. The 6.5 Rem Mag., has double head spacing problems with both the belt and bottle neck. The 300 RCM's are supposed to split the difference between the 300 WSM's and the 30-06. If you start with an 300 RCM, and reform it to your proposition, I think you will be happier.

I have a shortened 270 version, for an AR, that is a volumetric twin of the 277 Titus. I'm waiting for a magnum left hand upper to emerge from Black Hole Weaponry, later this year. If you reform to a longer neck and a more reasonable case taper, the full length RCM case, necked down to .257, should be about what you desire. NO belts, no rebated rims, and it's as big around as those belts on the 6.5 Rem Mag. cases.

I would order a Hornady case forming die, about 7mm that puts all of your taper into the RCM, and does the file trim deal. Then the F.L. 25 sizer can finish the neck and set the shoulder for your Go gauge. This case is tough to form, but it has an excellent rim. I haven't pulled any off yet, as opposed to ruining several with my 25-284 file trim die. So you need to finance your chambering reamer, your Go gauge for it, and a couple of custom dies.

One is to put in your taper, (for ease of chambering), neck down part way, and to do a file trim, and the second serves to finish reducing the neck, and setting the shoulder, in your F.L. reloading sizer die. Your (Hornady) seater will be a generic sleeved 257 die. With the RCM, I believe you can borrow a 25WSSM sizer, and neck down your 1st stage, 7mm forming die, to 25, in order to have the three fired cases to send back to Hornady. But if you want to do this, you have to have the file trim die set the shoulder all the way back to what your reamer cuts.

Personally, I would leave the shoulders in the file trim die, a bit long, and grind a bit off of an old shell holder, in order to push the try case farther into the die. Lastly, use the file trim neck as a false shoulder, and adjust it to crush fit your 25 necks into your new chamber. Lastly, if you have access to a lathe, I'd drill out a Grade 8 bolt, and then ream it with your finish reamer, so that it will act as a holder for a Wilson case trimmer. You need a 1 inch diameter, 4 inch long bolt for this. You want the case to only go in part ways. Leave it, so nearly an inch stays out the large end.

Dave Kiff at PT&G will grind you a reamer from your drawing on his online template, and furnish a Go gauge made to that printed drawing. Then, you have your rifle chambered, and use the case trimmer and 25 WSSM die to get to a few rough try cases. Now you shoot a few cream of wheat loads and then some moderate live rounds to provide the cases that you send to your die grinder.

This, at least, with Hornady, eliminates the need for the roughing reamer. You order the intermediate File trim former and F.L. sizer with the first few trial cases you get out of your rifle. You actually can size down a bit in your case trimmer holder, by pressing the case in, and then driving it back out with a rod.

This looks ugly, and it' s only to get the few numbers that the die grinder needs. As a last resort, you could use 6.5 Rem Mag cases, to trim and reform. These will bulge out ahead of the belts. It's really poor gunsmithing, but it will give the die grinder the necessary dimensions. Like I said, these RCM Ruger cases are really tough Hombres. H&H Belted cases are quite easy to squeeze down, by comparison.

I know this is about as clear as mud, but I'm a real cheapskate. This would entail ordering a file trim die, at the same time, by sending an extra three fired cases, at 25 cal., and having the custom desk put the 7mm file trim shoulder into the die. This die must have good purchase on the neck to allow the file to work. But it doesn't have to be the exact taper, nor the exact head space. That will be set by the next step F.L. die. You are splitting up the working of the brass, and giving the finished case it's length. Then the F.L. sizer will do the final adjustments, as you load your ammo.

At Hornady, this will all be done on CNC equipment. They did my Boer 8 file trim die, after the fact. It came to me marked Stage 1.5. It split up the work between stages 1 & 2, and put all of the taper into my cases. My stage two was a 40 caliber. So the actual neck diameter is meaningless, just so long as the neck is held securely, against the file strokes. Later, with my Boer 10.6mm, this file trim really cuts down the work load of trimming basic brass back.

Alternatively, I found that just one plunge with a virgin factory 375 Ruger case, into my F.L. die, makes an almost perfect Boer 10.6 case. I barely have to kiss it with my trimmer. Opening up the neck seems to equal the lengthening caused by streamlining out the blocky 375 Ruger's shoulders. So necking up to .416 shortens the factory case, and streamlining out the blocky shoulders lengthens it, to the point of their cancelling each other out.

But your idea will both streamline the 300 RCM and also neck it down, so the file trim function will be important, in saving you unnecessary work. Note; that if you go the WSM route, you will run into something close to this, by necking and tapering the 270 WSM, down. And this will be a bit harder to get to feed correctly, out of most magazines. So you will have to choose between the last little bit of volume, or a slickly chambering cartridge.

In my own little RCM 270, I really went overboard with the case taper. It looks like a smaller rimless French Lebel. But when Carl, at Black Hole, told me that they had run into way too much trouble with the Rem 6mmBR, in their AR's, I just smiled. My own Rem6mmBR is exactly why I did up my 270 SSU. At least this puppy's trial cartridges will feed out of my old Mauser's magazine box. And we think it'll feed O.K. from one of the new lefty magnum uppers, that Black Hole has recently contracted out.
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  #26  
Old 02-26-2012, 04:12 AM
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25-6.5 Remington Magnum vs. 270 & 7mm Rem SAUM & WSM

After reviewing and comparing the 270 WSM, the 7mm WSM and the 7mm Remington SAUM vs. the 6.5 Remington Magnum, I have concluded that the three afore listed cartridges would be better candidate cases necked down to .257, for my Yugoslav M-48 than the 6.5 Remington Magnum.

Their total case capacities would also get me to the maximum case capacity / bore ratio for the .257 bore and put my rifle solidly in the 25-06 AI / 257 Weatherby Magnum performance area without having to make quite as much action alterations as I would with a belted case from the H&H family of cartridges,
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  #27  
Old 02-26-2012, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vonrang View Post
After reviewing and comparing the 270 WSM, the 7mm WSM and the 7mm Remington SAUM vs. the 6.5 Remington Magnum, I have concluded that the three afore listed cartridges would be better candidate cases necked down to .257, for my Yugoslav M-48 than the 6.5 Remington Magnum.

Their total case capacities would also get me to the maximum case capacity / bore ratio for the .257 bore and put my rifle solidly in the 25-06 AI / 257 Weatherby Magnum performance area without having to make quite as much action alterations as I would with a belted case from the H&H family of cartridges,
And a 25WSSM would get you one neighborhood south of those numbers, in a factory rig. Winchester stayed away from a 25WSM, and softened the shoulder angle on the WSSM line, because of feed issues. Have you come up with a way to avoid those problems? Maybe you'll be working with a single-shot instead of a magazine fed action? If so, a 25WSM should work well enough.
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  #28  
Old 02-26-2012, 10:52 AM
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Since 1982 I have loaded 250-3000 Savage Ackley Improved 40 deg in a vintage 1921 Featherlight Savage 1899.

(IMO) Nothing could have presented a greater challenge to a gunsmith than having to heavily modify the rotary magazine, feed guide mechanisms designed in the 1899.

Back then, my gunsmith in Clovis, CA did the chambering, barrel pinning and action job flawlessly and it cycles rounds to this day w/o issue.

I also own a Czechoslovakian 98 Mauser in 8mm Mauser Ackley Improved 40 deg that only required an appointment with a chamber reamer and go-gauge that required no action alterations and if feeds like a champs.

I have a NEF/H&R Handi-Rifle in 22 Hornet that will receive a barrel donation from another Handi-Rifle in 17HMR to create a 17 Ackley Improved Hornet.

I have a Remington 700 in 17 Remington Fireball that Dave Kiff made a reamer for that give the 17 Fireball a 40 degree shoulder because I want average loads in the 20 - 22 grain range on this case.

I find there is absolutely nothing wrong with owning a factory rifle in a factory available cartridge like the 25 WSSM.

In fact, if I were to only use a factory cartridge in a factory rifle only, I would choose the 250-3000 in the Savage 1899 or 99 (up to 1960) hands down.

What motivates these notions and desires to work with wildcats?

The answer is a varied as the outdoorsmen that shoot them.

I have an idea where I want a cartridge to perform based on my own experience, observations, worked up loads, chronographic data, performance on paper and performance in the field, in addition to what I think or desire can be possible (whether it is based in fact or not) and push the envelope!

Factory's develop and sell gun and ammunition as a business.

Their decisions about developing and releasing a round or firearm to the public or abandoning a round or discontinuing a firearm are based on business decisions.

Business decisions (IMO) play the smallest possible part in pursuing wildcat cartridges.

I think someone earlier already said it in not so many words as I have already: I just don't what the same thing that every other guy already has.

I want something different and hopefully something better.

(IMO) I think that pursuing a 25-6.5 Remington or a 270 WSM necked to 257 is worth investigating regardless of what decisions a gun manufacturer decided or whether it would be easier to go with yet another factory round and rifle.
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  #29  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:42 AM
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Reply to Broom

I've played with your idea sometime back. I have a 25 cal. barrel languishing next to my lathe. But here's my 2 cents. If you only neck down, your neck becomes too short, and or the shoulder angle to abrupt. So, the next step is to roll your own, using one of the short magnums as a parent case. If you go the WSM route, where are the cheap dies to form your first few "try" cases?

This is why I suggest using the slightly smaller diameter RCM case. I have discovered that with a pronounced taper, it's the front half of the new 375 Ruger case that leads the way into the chamber. The rear half is going along for the ride, so to speak. You will get a little longer neck by squeezing it down from 300 to 257, and you will get a bit more by squeezing down the sharp shoulders.

Just like in a Gibbs wildcatted 30-06, (30 Gibbs), you can leave a false shoulder and then blow out what you have squeezed down into a longer case body, and still have a reasonable length neck, left. If your case starts out as the RCM, for simplicity, and ends up closer to the 6.5Rem Mag.'s length, a .257 bullet sticking down into the case body still leaves a positive increase in space for the powder.

I haven't hack sawed any of my RUM or Ruger cases apart to check their case heads, but I have reformed a couple of 375 Ruger Basics without trimming, out to my 338RUM's length. Even with the longer neck I use, there isn't much difference in volume of H2O, IIRC. I think the Ruger case is made more economical in the case head, unlike the rebated RUM. I know my 356BB cases only have 300 Sav. capacity, and that's due to over engineering them for the rear locking M 94 BB.

If he went with the old standby, of ordering two reamers, I think he could make it work, albeit, crushing back the shoulders may doom this. But if he makes it with more taper, and a little longer, he can support the brass much better. Putting the taper in first, maybe with an overly long file trim die, and then using an elliptical expander to make a false shoulder, would prep his case for a Gibb's fireforming. Since the RCM is more slender than the WSM, you can borrow a WSM F.L. die or two, for neck forming.

If one is willing to use the slightly smaller diameter case, with a little more taper, then just one finish reamer may suffice. And that saves some $$$. My solution was to make my own Wilson style case holder with the finish reamer. I then could press my cases a bit farther into this "die", to get where the smaller roughing reamer would have been. Then it was a few cream of wheat loads, followed by one mild bulleted loading, and off to Hornady for my case forming/F.L. sizer die set. I still use my 8mm Mauser New Dimension Seater, on all of my 8mm's.

It just seemed a shame to have to pay for the rougher, when the seater die has become generic by caliber, now. But, my slightly undersized cases had to be the belted H&H jobs. These bulged out ahead of the belt, and were only a temporary fix, to get the samples for the die grinder.

To be honest, I didn't get very far with my home made sizers. These Ruger cases are just too tough. The shortened 375H&H virgin cases worked so much better. It would be a nightmare for this gentleman to alternatively size down from Ruger Basic Brass, without already having a $500 set of case forming dies. Just making the longish neck, doing a false shoulder, and then fire forming, with either a 300 RCM, or a trimmed 6.5Rem Mag. case, seems to me to be so much simpler.

I can see it's counter intuitive to squeeze a case down, in order to make it longer, and then fire form it back to something closer to it's original shape. But in my 44-356BB, this does make a longer case than just incrementally expanding the necks from .358, out to .430. This latter way cost me nearly a full mm., loss. My cream of wheat, blown out cases, kept my 51mm lengths, to about 50.5mm+. I think that brass flowed from the case's, shoulder, body, junction. These necks all mike about the same diameter, with bullets seated in them.

And there's something that Dave Kiff told me over the phone. "You can always buy a slightly larger reamer, with a shorter neck, and sharper shoulders, to adjust your case's volume". Then your earlier cases will simply blow out to the new chamber walls. He didn't mention that the first finish reamer would then become the ersatz rougher. Obviously, he wants to sell you the real roughing reamer, which is, of course, the professional way to go.
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  #30  
Old 02-26-2012, 05:25 PM
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@ Vonrang,

I think you may have misinterpreted my intent, as I am a dyed-in-the-wool wildcatter with barrels for the 6.5JDJ, 30 Herrett and 358GNR in the safe. All of those have minimum body taper and a short, sharp neck, but they are all fired from a single-shot weapon, so there is little worry about how they feed.

I have to admit that the short-fat case geometry is not as interesting to me as the "AI" type rounds. Maybe that's showing my age or maybe I was a bit turned off by the advertising hype that came with the WSM/WSSM craze. Either way, I find that I like rimmed cartridges with more standard body diameter and modest capacity. I guess you could say I like unique rounds, but not necessarily those that set the world on fire with their velocity .

A 25WSM would be a belt-less 257 Weatherby, in a shorter package. There certainly wouldn't be anything wrong with that! I'm sure the quirks of getting it to feed well could be worked out by converting it to a single-shot design, as so many target guns are. Good luck and let us know how it goes!

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  #31  
Old 02-26-2012, 11:26 PM
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@ carpooler, broom_jm, and vonrang, i thank you all for the information here and knowledge gained as a result from all of the posts here. Very helpful information with quite a bit to think about. I too like things a little different from the norm which what got me to thinking of something like this in the first place. I do have that need for speed unfortunately, but accuracy is just as important to me as well. Jason, the AI rounds i like also because as we know it adds speed. Thank you again gentlemen for all of your help !!

Last edited by fred243; 02-26-2012 at 11:29 PM.
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  #32  
Old 02-28-2012, 10:37 AM
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your own way at your own Speed

Fred 243, thanks for that atta boy. But remember, for each step forwards, you always leave something behind. So, please work through this the way you want to do it. If you jump too quick to the WSM or RCM, then you can't go back to the H&H belted jobs as a parent case.

The belted numbers preclude going back to the .284 case, and the 25-284Win. precludes making an Ackley Improved 25-06. All of these, including the 284, seem to sometimes crush shoulders in case forming steps. WSM's and RCM's, use short thick necks, which exacerbate these problems.

A bolt rifle with a spool magazine large enough to handle five WSM's, would look really pregnant. But Savage once did have a 30-30 Win., M 99, number. At the other end, Winchester advises against using their 325WSM against DG. In conventional bolt rifles, with box magazines, the feeding isn't completely reliable.

So, work through these pitfalls at your own speed, and I think you'll be O.K.. But remember to always measure three times, and then cut once.
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