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  #1  
Old 10-09-2011, 09:47 PM
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411 JDJ rimless?


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Hello everyone.

I am thinking of building a 41 JDJ rimless on a 93 Mauser. I will load it light in consideration of the action. The gun is a Spanish 1916 in 7.62x51. I will use 30-06 brass to to form cases. I may also make the gun a 41-08 due to a steady supply of 7.62x51 brass.

I am building this rifle as a lead bullet gun to shoot the 300 grain WLN that I also use in my Black hawk. It just seems to make sense to have a rifle that shoots this big bullet.

I would appreciate any experience someone might have with the JDJ or any other concerns anyone might have. I am certain SOMONE has to of done this before I just can't find any information in it.

I guess I could call it a .411 Hawk Kurz.

Ron
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  #2  
Old 10-10-2011, 03:57 AM
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Hey Ron,

So, instead of using the 444 Marlin parent case you're wanting to use '06 or 308? It looks like that might work just fine and I'm not sure you'd need to load it light, since the rifle is already chambered for 308 pressure. With cast bullets you'll need to keep it mild, though.

My only experience is with the 6.5JDJ, so no real help there. I'm not a fan of cartridges with such slight shoulders on them, though...too easy to have a headspace issue, ESPECIALLY since you're doing away with the ample rim of the 444. I'd send JD an email on your idea before proceeding. He might convince you that a 411JDJ rimless is going to be a headspacing nightmare. Now, a 444 Rimless, headspacing on the mouth, could be doable, but you couldn't use that exact bullet used in your 41 Mag.
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2011, 07:53 AM
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I have thought about a similar cartridge based on the 240 Weatherby case. Since it has a belt , that would solve the headspacing problem. Just a thought...........HD1
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2011, 10:56 AM
NFG NFG is offline
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Exclamation

You might take a look at the 400 Whelen Imp or the 411 Hawk version...and then read up on what happens to tapered objects shoved into tapered holes...AND the concept of headspacing.

There is just WAY too much biased speculation without basis or merit, floating around about this particular cartridge, promulgated by those that don't quit understand all they don't know about what they're talking about...including some "experts".

There are many other considerations that no one has brought up reguarding this particular cartridge combo, that only well informed reloaders or gunsmiths know about...you can ALWAYS headspace on the case mouth along with the shoulder if you have a problem...SEVERAl present day 50 cal wildcats using the WSM/RUM case do this without any adverse effects.

Besides whether you know it or not, in some chambers you can shoot the 444M and 308/30'06 case without any problems...I've used a trimmed 444 M, 358 W, and 356 W, loaded mixed in my Marlin 336 356 W mag tube and they all functioned without a hitch.

If you want to do a 40 cal using a '06 case, pick the improved 40° shoulder, blown out version and go have fun...it is an excellent way to obtain an excellent caliber/cartridge...and a very good price.

Depending on the condition of the receiver etc., why even bother with going to a rimless case...the rim OD of the 444 M isn't very much larger than the base, ~0.022" per side, and the Mauser extracter will work just fine, probably without any modification or grinding...probably no feeding issues either but you can check that easy enough.

Luck

Last edited by NFG; 10-11-2011 at 11:04 AM.
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  #5  
Old 10-12-2011, 07:56 PM
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Well, the bolt face and action are set up for the case, and I get all the Lake City brass I want from the base, so I'm pretty sure the 7.62x51 is what I'll go with. Headspace is not something I'm concerned about. The action is always bashed because it doesn't have a lug set back indicator and doesn't handle gas as well as the 98, but I really like the little things.
I think that starting JDJ loads should get me in the ballpark. This round should put deer and black bear down right now. It won't be a pistol and carbine combo but it will be close. Finding a barrel might be an issue.

Thanks for the comments.

Ron
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  #6  
Old 10-13-2011, 04:52 AM
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Ron,

I stand corrected on my earlier headspacing comments...that cartridge will be just fine w/o the rim!

As far as what parent case to use and what configuration, would you consider a 35 caliber model, like a 35 Whelen or 358 Winchester? If so, JES will rebore your rifle for a reasonable fee. I don't know if he'll go up to 41 caliber, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Any of the above will obviously do for deer or bear, at reasonable ranges. If you're going to go rimless (a plus when used in a break-action rifle) why not go with a more standard cartridge and make it easy on yourself?

EDIT After looking at the JES website ( www.35caliber.com ), he does list 41 caliber so it looks like you could get it rebored if you want. Then it would just be a matter of having the chamber reamed, buying 411JDJ dies, and necking up 30-'06, or 35 Whelen brass and fire-forming them. NOTE: I don't see how you could use 7.62x51 brass...it is too short to fill the 411JDJ chamber. From what I can see, you'll definitely have to use the longer '06 type brass.
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Last edited by broom_jm; 10-13-2011 at 05:02 AM.
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  #7  
Old 10-14-2011, 08:46 PM
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I understand the x51 is to short for a true 411 JDJ, but a 41-08 at slightly higher pressure will get me what I need. 300-350 grains @ 2100 fps or so. That will get everything I would point it at deader than dead.

The rebore may work as I like the length of the military barrel. He could probably leave the chamber alone and just rebore and add a neck and lead to the chamber. Otherwise I have found a few barrels that won't break the bank and still give me what I want. I was originally thinking a synthetic stock, but now I'm thinking something like a Boyd's thumbhole.

This gun is "just 'cuz" so I'll take my time and spend as much as needed to get it just right. I'm planning on having a custom gun belt and matching sling made up for this and the Blackhawk. I'll also finish the stock and the grips the same with maybe a small matching inlay. Sort of a "BBQ" gun rig.

Thanks again.

Ron
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  #8  
Old 10-15-2011, 05:03 AM
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That sounds like a lot of fun, Ron. Please be sure to share pics with us as the project rolls along...so we can live vicariously!
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  #9  
Old 10-15-2011, 10:07 AM
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Not to put too fine a point on it or rain on your parade...but when you talk "higher pressure", 2100fs, 300-350gr bullet, Mauser 93 all in the same breath it makes me nervous...you can't get those numbers in that receiver with a 308 case without getting way the HE** too high in pressure.

You MIGHT get there with a 2.25" case length, 444 Marlin case or trimmed 30-06, x57 etc. It sounds good but I've been at this game for almost 60 years and there are things you can do and things you can do SAFELY.

I have several unmodified M93 and M96 rifles and 1 M98 converted rifle. NO WAY IN HECK would I push past the ~42-46KCUP, 6.5x55, 7x57mm pressure limits of the M93/96 receivers...nor would I go much past 52KCUP in the M98.

There are several 40 cal wildcat cartridges on the 308 case, and many more on cases you seemed to not know about or looked at or lengths you are discounting, plus you are placing a lot of emphasis on getting 308 cases "cheap".

Brass is cheap and available...custom dies are EXPENSIVE AND HARD TO OBTAIN...reamers cost $150, GUNSMITHING is REALLY costly...the last wildcat I did, (all the work myself) 50 cal Rigby, the dies cost $275 and took 8 months to get. I made all the jigs to hold the receiver for the grinding work(not necessarily required)...and it still cost me more than just buying a new CZ rifle then rebarreling it.

I've been looking at 375 -40 cals(.375" to .416"), both rimmed and rimless, for a Marlin levergun for many years and there are a bunch of cases that will work, keep within the safe pressure limits of that levergun AND the M93, and I know the in's and out's of wildcatting pretty well so I CAN get'r'done, just haven't found that round toit yet.

Lots of folks obtain a military rifle then want to "trickitout"...but before you get too far you really need to do some deep researching...get the heck OFF the net,(way to much BS, lies, mis-information, dis-information, smoke and mirrors) and spend some bucks on BOOKS... Load from a Disk has many of the several wildcats available to look at and a way to calculate a resonable pressure/velocity...only a little guesswork.

I think everyone should undertake a military conversion...they would soon learn just how "cheap" commercial rifles actually are and WHAT/WHERE the dangers lurk in ANY conversion.

Luck on your project.
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  #10  
Old 10-15-2011, 11:40 AM
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OK

I'm not gonna get in a pissin contest over this, but.

You got me, I've only been doing this for about 40 years.
My M93 is a model 16 in 7.62x51, and I've shot hundreds of full power .308 loads through it. This action can handle a 50-55k psi without issue.
The lever gun works in the 40K area and 10K can do wonders to velocity with the right powders.

I have built up a bunch of mil surp wildcats like 7.7 Savage long neck-Arisaka and a 8MM-06 AI on a VZ-24. I am well aware (and happy to acomadate) the financial outlay.

I have acess to free machining by people that work on nuclear powered submarines, and can do all the hand work myself.

I apreciate your concern, but I assure you that I'll make this work and work well. If I don't make my spit ball velocity figure I'm fine with it.

No emphasis on getting cases cheap intended. Fact is the gun is set up for the 7.62x51 case and Lake City brass is fantastic stuff. I'd be willing to loose some velocity to make the project easier.

Thanks again

Ron

Last edited by noyb72; 10-15-2011 at 11:44 AM.
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  #11  
Old 10-15-2011, 11:48 AM
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Just reread this thread. I think I might have confused you. When I said "slightly higher pressure" I ment higher than the 45K JDJ, not higher than .308. Sorry if their was a misunderstanding.

Ron
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  #12  
Old 10-15-2011, 01:51 PM
NFG NFG is offline
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Cool

No pissing contest meant or implied...I don't know you from Jack, you're just a name and question on a forum...nor your level of expertise, nor who or what machining capabilities you have access to...I was not only speaking to the question and you, but also the wider audience...this is the World Wide Web...and if you have folllowed ANY forum for a while you know just how many wannabees start out on milsurp conversions only to get disappointed or totally screwed around...

Not to mention the mixups with CUP and PSI pressures conventions.

I'm not a mauser expert but from what I've read, learned and understand the M93 was originally in 7.65x53, 7.5x55mm and 7x57mm...~46KCUP/~52KPSI...within 308/7.62x51 SAAMI specs...

I'm not certain what you mean by "model 16" tho'...I haven't come across that designation before.

I won't argue with anyone...I just present the information I know is close as possible to fit the question...what I have come across wildcatting and building rifles and reloading, all these years from experience...it is up to the various individuals reading these words to either use them to their advantage....or not. It is NEVER a question of who's right or wrong, just what level the information is used at...doesn't matter one way or the other to me, HOW or IF it is used.

The problem with forums seems to be that people jump froggy at the least sniff of the slightest provocation in their minds...whether it is there or not...forums are worse than a bar showing Monday night football, about the last 3 minutes of the last quarter when the fumes alone will make you drunk...totally mindless people doing even more mindless things.

How do I know...I like to watch football AND people....can't drink anymore, but that doesn't matter either...anymore.

I stopped posting on forums for several years, then started again while I was eating breakfast or dinner...I'm very close to quiting all together now. Sometimes is like trying to teach a pig to sing...all it does is hurt your ears and makes the pig upset.

When I started this business, you had to learn the hard way and pay for it in dollars or sweat equity. Now I have software programs that will give me information in minutes that took days or weeks back then...and enough guns and equipment to test those parameters in a few shots rather than slowly working up from the bottom over days.

Luck on your project
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  #13  
Old 10-15-2011, 11:36 PM
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The model 1916 is a 93 Mauser originally chambered in 7x57 that the Spanish updated and rechambered to 7.62x51 when they went to the NATO standard. They changed the follower and ejector to acomodate the shorter round and they made some modifications to handle gas from a ruptured case better, gas handling is the 98s true advantage to the 93 or 95. Although mine is certainatly not a cream puff, it is a good, smooth,strong action that I would like to rehab into something other than a vanilla .308.

Sorry if I came across strong, I agree with your opinions of forums and have found that giving someone a little push quickly reveals if they are an arm chair quarterback or if they actually have some relevant wisdom.

I've enjoyed this. Give me a coupe days and I'll come up with another hair brained idea to go back and forth about.

By the way, you got any information on a 40 .308 wildcat?

Ron
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  #14  
Old 10-16-2011, 10:36 AM
NFG NFG is offline
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Exclamation

Thanks, that's good to know...the mausers have been futzed around with so long it's almost impossible to keep track. Kinda like the Isapore SMLE 2A receiver getting a make-over and ending up a 308. I ended up doing a 458 American on my 2A.

I know of the 411 Davis Hawg and/or the 41 Davis, several on the '06 case like the 400 Whelen and 411 Hawk, the 405 Win, Jess's 40 cal and a few on the x57 case...I've never built or played with any of the 40 cals other than designing "my own" 416's for use in a Marlin levergun and while I was futzing around with my SMLE trying to decide which caliber to jump on. I made up a bunch of dummies to use to work through the process.

I basically went with the 458 A because I can use my 458 WM and/or 45-70 dies...and use a 458 WM reamer...keeps costs down when it comes to custom vs standard dies.

Ballistics in a 40 cal will be similar to the 375 JDJ or slightly less due to the smaller 308 case, but you're using bullet SIZE to get the job done rather than velocity.

In todays world I advocate going with the "short fatty's"...WSM and RCM cases. You might need to do a minor amount of rail work with the WSM case but probably not with the RCM case and both will work with just a bit of reshaping on the extractor or using a magnum extractor. I've done 3 Ruger Tang model conversions, 2 to magnum case size without having to do any rail work and that action is a clone to the M93-M98's.

As long as you keep the pressures within the pressure specs of the receiver...PLUS remembering the increase in size of the case base you will get much better ballistics...basically the increase mirrors the decrease ballistics due to barrel shortening...this is physics playing it's role.

My advice is to buy both Cartridges of the World and Wildcat cartridges, Handloaders Manual of Cartridge Conversions and Load from a Disk software program which includes a cartridge design program and internal ballistics calculator. Add Quick Load as soon as you can afford it($165) if you want to keep messing about with wildcats.

This way you will get the straight skinny(absent the errors you will discover) and not a ton of conjecture. The web is full of extremely knowledgeable people that give excellent advice, but you never know WHO you're talking to unless you happen to meet them.

My other advice...DON'T BELIEVE A WORD YOU READ ON THE NET...unless YOU can prove or substantiat it. One very good reason I DON'T post reloading data unless I find it in a reputable reloading manual...then I give THAT as the source.

That being said...unless your receiver has been shortened some way, the original M93 could handle ~3.315" COAL so measure your mag and use the longest case and bullet combination commenserate with the mag length...THEN decide which actual available case to use or modify one...you don't want the tail wagging to donkey.

Wildcatting is long on the design process and short on the actual building.

Luck
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  #15  
Old 10-19-2011, 09:11 AM
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If you trim off a .240 Weatherby case at the shoulder and size to .429, you'd end up with basically a belted .444 marlin with a standard size bolt face. It would make a simple solution to your case issues and pressures. HD1
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  #16  
Old 10-20-2011, 08:42 PM
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The issue with the 240 is magazine capacity. I'm not a blaster but I like the idea of 5 in the box. I also wouldn't push this action to magnum pressure.

Ron
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  #17  
Old 10-21-2011, 10:14 AM
NFG NFG is offline
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The rim OD of the 240 W is the same as a 308/30'06 so the mag capacity wouldn't be affected...and you don't have to load to magnum levels in a magnum case...you ALWAYS load to the capacity of the receiver irregardless of which case you use.

Nothing wrong with using the 240 W case except in the area of cost of cases and custom dies and extra trimming/fireforming the case work...it gives you a belt to headspace on and plenty of case capacity...by my calculations...the full case length including seated bullet is less than 3.3"

The 240 W was originally designed to be used in a standard bolt face receiver and to give "Weatherby" ballistics in the 6mm platform, which it did, but you could get the same performance in many other cases without the premium cost associated with the name "Weatherby"...those cases were real spendy at one time compared to '06 and x75 cases.

Your original ideas were good ones and the 444 M case has been used for many well known and well accepted wildcats. Rimmed case versions of the 7x57 are available as is the 303 Brit if you must have a rimmed case...this isn't a "new" wildcat...versions have been around since the 444M came out and even older ones using the 303 Brit.

Now is the time to decide to go the easy route of "bendonebefore" or the more difficult way of picking YOUR cardridge and doing YOUR wildcat. Reamers are ~$140, dies slightly over ~$100...nothing left but "get'r'done".

Luck
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  #18  
Old 10-21-2011, 05:56 PM
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Noyb72: Take a look at Gunbroker auction # 256481272. The seller mentions a .44 cal wildcat that may just be what you're looking for. He describes case forming , case length etc...... HD1
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