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  #1  
Old 11-29-2011, 12:09 PM
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Another Indiana Wildcat?


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No, this isn't a totally serious investigation. I'm still very happy with my .358 WSSM, and can't afford to do it again. It's only a matter of time before we see another crop of Indiana wildcats, and the WSM will be one of them no doubt.

I just though maybe one of you with your fancy calculators could whip up some ballpark numbers for case capacity and estimated performance for a 1.8" cartridge based on the WSM case.

I could probably form brass using my .358 WSSM dies, but regardless, I drew the shoulder angle as a 25 degree shoulder, just to make case forming a bit easier perhaps.

Top is the .358 WSSM, bottom is the .358 NSSM. Bullet is roughly a 225gr Nosler Accubond seated to about the bottom of the neck of the WSSM... just a bit deeper than that in the NSSM.

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Old 11-29-2011, 12:15 PM
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2011, 12:18 PM
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"Not So Short"
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  #4  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:33 PM
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The guy in southern Indiana who chambers barrels in 358BFG (35WSSM) already has a reamer ready to go for the 35WSM - 1.8". You also might call it the 35 Sambar-Short, as the 35 Sambar is an established wildcat, down under. You can bet this one will come to pass; in fact, there are undoubtedly already rifles chambered for it.

The other two that will see the light of day are the 35x460 (a 460S&W necked down) and the old 357 Herrett wildcat. A 35 Remington case trimmed to 1.800" will also be widely used and will be the cheapest and easiest option out there. Some guys will also try a 222RM blown out straight, creating a 357 Super Maximum. My idea of a 338ME case, necked up and trimmed a bit, hasn't caught much interest. It would be as expensive as some of the others, but not as powerful.
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  #5  
Old 11-29-2011, 01:37 PM
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Can we use this now?
Looked at the proposed new length, never heard if it was approved.

Don
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  #6  
Old 11-29-2011, 07:23 PM
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I've already done it on my .358 HDH. Using the .325 WSM case, cutting and reforming it to 1.800 length, in essence lengthening the previous 1.625 inch .358 HDH (WSSM case) by .175 inch, case capacity is increased from 56 gr. to 67 gr. water. That is measured, not guesstimated. No other changes, same 30 degree shoulder and neck length.
That is close to a 20% increase in powder capacity with a COAL of 2.800 inches to work through the LR-308 magazine. A bolt gun allowing you to seat out farther would allow an even longer COAL and less intrusion into the powder space with heavy 225+ gr. bullets. As to performance, I'm still waiting for Marty to crunch the numbers on QL to see if it will be worthwhile to convert. If I don't gain at least 10% in velocity (230 fps), why bother?
ed to add: Thanks Marty. Numbers crunched and I should see an increase of 300 fps; off the reamer goes to Dave for re-grinding after the first of the year.

Case forming on the .325 WSM was cake. I ran it over the .35 expander, into the .358 HDH sizing die set to size the longer 1.800 inch case, then cut to close length and trimmed. Neck thickness was tapered from .015 at the mouth to .020 at the top of the shoulder so it will need to be turned to true up.

Proposed length does not go into affect until 2012.
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Last edited by Big Bore; 12-13-2011 at 12:19 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-30-2011, 02:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigfoot View Post
Can we use this now?
Looked at the proposed new length, never heard if it was approved.

Don
Well, general firearms season is over, so you can't use them to hunt with, of course. You CAN build the gun and shoot it all you want until the 2012 season opens up. It has been approved by the NRC and will be adopted as law sometime in February or April...can't remember which. It's worth noting that Indiana will have a "holiday" antlerless season next year, as well, which means you'll be able to use your deer rifle during general season for buck or doe and then again during a roughly week-long season from Christmas to New Year's, or shortly thereafter.

When I first moved to Indiana I was frustrated that my normal range of ~300 yards had basically been cut in half, while the amount of recoil I would have to deal with was almost doubled. I tried a slug gun for 1 season and that was enough. I hunted with scoped Contender barrels and various muzzle-loaders for several years, but truly rejoiced when they passed the PCR (pistol-chambered rifle) regulations!

As dumb as they sound (ARE!) I was still happy to have a better option than hard-kicking slugs or messy ML's. My son doesn't enjoy hunting and part of that was a result of having to deal with the mess and recoil of a ML during his first 2 seasons. My daughter LOVES deer hunting, but she has never hunted with anything but a Model '92 in 44/40, taking her 2nd deer (first buck) a couple weeks ago. She has always been able to practice with mild loads and hunt with something a little more stout, so she never grew to hate the gun, as my son hated his. Indiana is still on an island of misinformation if they believe it's a "safety issue", but they went a long way toward recruiting more young hunters when they introduced the PCR regulations. 12 year-old kids do NOT like recoil and being able to put a 357 Max up to their shoulder is a real game changer.

I'm looking forward to next year and the challenge of creating 35 Remington-Short rounds for my wife, as well as the possibility of a new wildcat for me to play with. If not, the 358GNR I used this year did a great job and is a fully capable 200-yard gun, with mild recoil...just like the 35 Remington.
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  #8  
Old 12-11-2011, 08:28 PM
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Just one problem...

There's just one problem with this drawing: The lower datum diameter of a 300WSM case is not .555 inches. It is .550 inches. The lower datum diameter of a 300RUM case is not .550 inches. It is .545 inches. The .550" and .555" they list are reference diameters. If you have your reamers made to these diameters, the case will suffer a sloppy fit in the chamber. I made sure to measure my basic cases before I had my reamer made. The 375Ruger basic is .530 inches at the .200" datum. Dave Manson machined the reamer to .533" at that point. That's nice and close-- gives good alignment to the bore. Neck bore is .338 inches and neck diameter is .336 inches, although I turn it down to .335 inches. .003 inches clearance is what the top long-range benchresters are running in their rigs, so I'm cool with the same, I guess-- especially in a long-action Montana Rifle Company M1999 with a Satern barrel...

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  #9  
Old 12-12-2011, 02:54 AM
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NVShooter,

I get what you're saying about the body of the case just forward of the rebated rim, but all of the neck dimensions you quoted have me .

Shouldn't those be .388", .386 and .385" ?
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  #10  
Old 12-12-2011, 07:07 AM
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nvshooter, 0.5550" is correct, at least it was for me. I measured every piece of new unfired Winchester WSSM brass at 0.5550".

The base diameter of my .358 WSSM reamer is 0.5563" (I used Redding's print from Dave Manson) After three loads on my brass the base dimeter of my brass hasn't moved.
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  #11  
Old 12-13-2011, 04:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvshooter View Post
There's just one problem with this drawing: The lower datum diameter of a 300WSM case is not .555 inches. It is .550 inches. The lower datum diameter of a 300RUM case is not .550 inches. It is .545 inches. The .550" and .555" they list are reference diameters. If you have your reamers made to these diameters, the case will suffer a sloppy fit in the chamber. I made sure to measure my basic cases before I had my reamer made. The 375Ruger basic is .530 inches at the .200" datum. Dave Manson machined the reamer to .533" at that point. That's nice and close-- gives good alignment to the bore. Neck bore is .338 inches and neck diameter is .336 inches, although I turn it down to .335 inches. .003 inches clearance is what the top long-range benchresters are running in their rigs, so I'm cool with the same, I guess-- especially in a long-action Montana Rifle Company M1999 with a Satern barrel...

Don't take this wrong. It's obvious that you haven't looked at a reamer print as to how they measure headspace vs the measurement forward of the case rim. Here a print of the case and headspace also chamber print and headspace. You will see kludge are correct

http://www.saami.org/PubResources/CC...t%20Magnum.pdf

Last edited by old roper; 12-13-2011 at 04:51 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-13-2011, 05:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Bore View Post
As to performance, I'm still waiting for Marty to crunch the numbers on QL to see if it will be worthwhile to convert. If I don't gain at least 10% in velocity (230 fps), why bother?
ed to ad: Thanks Marty. Numbers crunched and I should see an increase of 300 fps; off the reamer goes to Dave for re-grinding after the first of the year.
WOW!

Based on that, .35 Whelen numbers are truly attainable.

With an Accubond that's 2000fps and 2000fpe left at 300 yards. (MV=2600fps), and sighted for the same +/-3" MPBR, it's >4" less drop at 300 yards... and only 8" below line of sight.

That's going to kick a little.
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  #13  
Old 12-13-2011, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kludge View Post
WOW!

Based on that, .35 Whelen numbers are truly attainable.

With an Accubond that's 2000fps and 2000fpe left at 300 yards. (MV=2600fps), and sighted for the same +/-3" MPBR, it's >4" less drop at 300 yards... and only 8" below line of sight.

That's going to kick a little.
Yep, you're correct on both counts: The 358WSM v. 1.8" will be a short-action 35 Whelen...and kick like one, too!

I got into the whole PCR wildcat thing to come up with an Indiana-legal deer rifle that is capable of shots out to 250 yards. I also wanted that kind of range without the recoil of a slug gun or M/L with 150 grains of black powder. With this increase in case length from 1.625" to 1.800", wildcats like the 358WSM and 35X460 will enable shooters to reach 300 yards and beyond, but to get that performance they'll be dealing with considerable recoil.

I'm thinking David White's 356-Short will be a great option for single-shot rifle nuts like me and give very realistic 250 yard performance, without crossing that recoil threshold. I'm pretty sure that's the way I'll go, if a new 35 wildcat is in my future.
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  #14  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:31 PM
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Don't take this the wrong way, but we are shooting deer, right.

Wouldn't something lighter like a 180-200 grain bullet kill the deer just as dead. I'm thinking something like a 300 Savage with the shoulder pushed back just a tidge. My guess is a MV around 2500fps or so. I don't have a program, but I'm betting that will get you a 300 yard gun and not force you to take an elk rifle to a deer stand. I get the lower BC and SD and all that but really, isn't dead dead?

Ron
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  #15  
Old 12-13-2011, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by noyb72 View Post
Don't take this the wrong way, but we are shooting deer, right.

Wouldn't something lighter like a 180-200 grain bullet kill the deer just as dead. I'm thinking something like a 300 Savage with the shoulder pushed back just a tidge. My guess is a MV around 2500fps or so. I don't have a program, but I'm betting that will get you a 300 yard gun and not force you to take an elk rifle to a deer stand. I get the lower BC and SD and all that but really, isn't dead dead?

Ron
Well Ron, if we could shoot a 300 Savage, you can bet we would! The problem is, in addition to a case no longer than 1.800", the bullet used must be no smaller than .357" in diameter. The intention behind all of this is for folks to shoot lever-action rounds like the 44 and 357 Mag. The change to increase the length to 1.800" was made to include the 460S&W. A slightly trimmed 35 Remington is about the easiest way to get there and is something sure to be popular next year. It will also be well in line with the intent of the law, since range will be limited to something less than 200 yards.

Various wildcat cartridges have sprung up that meet the letter of the law, while stretching the limits of effective range farther than the Indiana DNR had in mind. I have been told by a conservation officer that they don't worry about guys who shoot wildcats (or those who shoot 15" pistols in powerful cartridges) because the owners of those guns typically know what they're doing.

Confusing, huh??
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Old 12-13-2011, 02:24 PM
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OK
I ment a 35-300 Savage with a slightly pushed back shoulder. They do make standard construction .358 bullets as light as 180 grains. I'm guessing a 200 grainer would work well in a blown out 300 Savage case with a sharp shoulder and a Gibbs style neck loaded to .308 pressure. This would be right around a .358 Win and that has taken alot of deer with 180 grain bullets, maybe only a PBR of 250 or so, but kill a deer @ 300 yards fur shure.

As an aside, I do think the 35 WSM would make a perfect deep woods elk rifle, and it is definatly on my to do list for Olymic Peninsula Rosevelt.

Ron

Last edited by noyb72; 12-13-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-13-2011, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by noyb72 View Post
OK
I ment a 35-300 Savage with a slightly pushed back shoulder. They do make standard construction .358 bullets as light as 180 grains. I'm guessing a 200 grainer would work well in a blown out 300 Savage case with a sharp shoulder and a Gibbs style neck loaded to .308 pressure. This would be right around a .358 Win and that has taken alot of deer with 180 grain bullets, maybe only a PBR of 250 or so, but kill a deer @ 300 yards fur shure.

As an aside, I do think the 35 WSM would make a perfect deep woods elk rifle, and it is definatly on my to do list for Olymic Peninsula Rosevelt.

Ron
What you suggest was done by a man named Elgin Gates, of 445 Super Mag fame, and called the 35 IHMSA. He had an entire line of wildcat handgun cartridges based on a 300 Savage with the shoulder pushed back a bit, to give a longer neck. There were 7 or 8 in all, ranging from 25 to 35, IIRC.

I have a 358GNR (445SM necked down) that started life as a 357 Magnum H&R barrel. I shoot 180gr Hornady SSP bullets with a MV of ~2325 and used it to take a yearling a few weeks ago...it performed very well, although the range was less than 50 yards. For the faster 35 wildcats, Barnes is making a 180gr TTSX that should provide good velocity and excellent terminal performance. They are a bit pricy, but most things are, when it comes to wildcats.

The existing 35WSSM produces 358Win numbers while the 35WSM v 1.8" will be a short-action 35 Whelen, statistically. If you want to work with a full-length 35WSM, do a search on the 35 Sambar. It has been used in Australia to take most of their medium and heavy game animals. It would be a great choice for Roosevelt elk, no doubt, which illustrates that these bigger 35 caliber 'cats are more than is needed for deer in Indiana.

The problem we face is if you want the flatter trajectory of a great mild recoil deer cartridge, like say a 260 Remington, but you MUST use a 35 caliber bullet, the only way to get there is to drive 'em faster. That means you basically have the recoil of an elk gun to get the range and trajectory of a typical deer cartridge. If you want to take it easy on your shoulder, you shoot something like a 35 Remington, trimmed short, and you get ~175 yards worth of range. Kinda sucks.
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Last edited by broom_jm; 12-13-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 05:20 AM
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For me it's not so much about the weight of the bullet as the flatness of the trajectory. I'm looking for the flattest shooting cartridge within the law.

The .358 WSSM gives me a MPBR of 235 yards (+/-3" from line of sight), this holds true for bullets from 180gr to 225gr. That simply blows away anything from a shotgun, muzzleloader, or pistol cartridge rifle. 300 yards is -12". With any other kind of hunting weapon a 300 yard shot is simply out of the question for all but the most dedicated shooters.

(Until the rifle law I carried a 9.5" Ruger SRH in .454 Casull. It had better trajectory than a 12GA slug, was immensely more accurate, and it was a lot lighter. I carried a shotgun deer hunting exactly once. An 1100 with a slug barrel that couldn't hit a paper plate at 70 yards and knocked my fillings out. The .454 was an easy decision.)

Secondarily I'm looking a bullet performance at maximum range. The .358 WSSM retains plenty of energy out to 400 yards for clean kills on whitetail, but According to Sierra, expansion of the 225gr SGK gets "tough" below 1900fps on whitetail -- so with that in mind ~250-260 yards is the limit. On the other hand the 200gr Hornady FTX was designed to work down to 1600fps, so 300 yards is within reach... but knowing that your bullet will be "zipping" along at 2500fps at 50 yards makes you think about whether the bullet will hold together (I think it will, but only real world data will tell).

That said, a .35 caliber hole through the lungs even with no expansion = dead deer.

Upping the ante and going to the .358 NSSM will put the cartridge performance more in line with the design intentions of the most .35 caliber rifle bullets (excluding the RN/FN and FTX designed for the .35 Remington).

The questions remaining for me are 1) expense and 2) recoil. I have enough of both already.

And yes, I'd rather be carrying the parent .25 WSSM or a 6.5mm (.260 Rem or the Creedmoor), probably good out to 400 yards, and forget all this wildcat stuff.

Last edited by kludge; 12-14-2011 at 05:27 AM.
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Old 12-14-2011, 06:33 AM
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Yeah, the 358 NSSM (1.800" WSM) is going to push the envelope into an area I'm sure the DNR would just as soon we don't go, which is a maximum PBR of more than 250 yards. However, the number of guys willing to foot the bill for such a rifle, and deal with all the hassle of loading for a wildcat, will be pretty small. I think more folks will go with 35 Remington cases, trimmed a little short, because then they won't need a custom rifle or reloading dies. Just buy a 336, trim some brass and seat some bullets. There won't even be much of a performance reduction, if any. The recoil surely won't be a problem.
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Old 12-14-2011, 07:27 AM
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Yep, the .35 Rem is in the "easy" category for recoil. And IF you can get 2200fps it's a 250 yard catridge with the 200gr FTX.

At a more attainable 2050fps it's +/-3" out to 200 yards and also just slips under 1600fps. Good enough for most deer in Indiana.
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