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  #1  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:23 PM
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370 Sako/9.3x66?


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Anyone have any experience with this one? I've been tossing around the idea of building one. I know the 9.3x62 has no flies on it, and that it is a fantastic cartridge. But, why not a little more? I also realize the 9.3x64 has more get up and go and honestly I am considering that one as well....but that requires bolt face work which can't ever be changed. I'd either have to find another cartridge with that oddball diameter, or open it up to a magnum. And if I was to go the way of opening up, then we have the 376 Steyr on the table as well.

Basically, I'm looking at some serious medium bore power for elk hunting. I want to throw 250-270gr bullets at a good enough speed to have some distance on it. The reason I have somewhat discounted the x62 is because I want a 22" barrel, I just feel the 376 or 370 would give a little more oomph with a very slightly handicapped barrel.

This will be done on an 03-A3 that in its previous life, was a 35 Brown-Whelen, so I imagine some work has already been done opening up a bit on the rails and such to feed such a straight and blown out cartridge. That is another reason I have swayed away from the sleek x62. This isn't a pretty rifle, its going on a synthetic stock, and will be coated in some way, no deep blue and wood for this one.

Oh, suggestions are always welcome as well. The rifle is going to be done by Z-Hat, so of course, the Hawk like is also on the table if someone says they had a horrible time with the 370 or whatever.
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  #2  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:31 PM
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I always like a fella that's looking "up"! I happen to own a .358 Win, .35 Whelen, 9.3x62, .375 Win, .444, .45-70 and .450. The 9.3 is a pretty stout round. I think the .35 Whelen is the best cartridge ever devised. But, the 9.3x62 has no flies on it either.

I see no need for more horsepower in any N.A. hunting over a 9.3x62, but I might be crazy...lol.
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  #3  
Old 02-14-2012, 04:46 PM
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I have a 30-06, a 308, a 300 Wby, I've owned a 300 Win Mag, 300 WSM, 7mm WSM, 25 WSSM, 270, 243....yes, I'm looking forward to looking UP haha.

Going off of handloads ballistics calculator...I'm only saving 1.5" or so at most distances (although I like the 2.3" vs near 3" high at 100 yards for sight in) but the energy is what I'm really looking at, several hundred pounds more. I know its all a drop in the hat honestly, and the elk won't know the difference, but I will! And I'm a certified rifle looney just like all of you guys. Mostly I'm a bit concerned about what work has already been done to the action, and I'd hate to end up having some feeding problems from an action that was set up for an EXTREMELY improved cartridge, feeding a much more tapered and sleek cartridge. It would suck to find out it might have problems, to only have to rechamber for my original intentions

Plus....different is cool haha. Still like the Steyr too though, and its only semi-different
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  #4  
Old 02-14-2012, 07:34 PM
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370 Sako magnum Federal ammo ballistics claim: 286gr bullet at 2550fps.

From my Remington 700 CDL (24" barrel) 35 Whelen I can load the Woodleigh 310gr bullet to 2400fps. Bullets and brass are a lot easier to source for the 35 Whelen. What's all the hoopla about?
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  #5  
Old 02-14-2012, 08:16 PM
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A 370 would likely come fairly close to 2400...maybe 2350 or so...with a 325gr bullet. What is all the hoopla with the 35 Whelen

edit to add - this is based on my general calculations, since the 370 goes about 180-200fps faster then the 9.3x62 across weights, and factory Normal 325's do 2198.
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  #6  
Old 02-16-2012, 09:52 AM
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Z-Hat has brass $$$$$$$ I was thinking about that for a 35 cal wild cat but Ken Howell beat me to it. I like the 22 bbl idea as well that's what I am going with on my 35 W.A.I. The only thing I could see is that you might be giving up quite a bit of potential whacking off 2 inches and could be nearer to the 62 ballistics after it is all said and done that is why I went to the improve route to get the 2700+fps in a shorter bbl. if that's the goal than do it and post some ballistics I am sure we would be interested to compare it with the 9.6x62 and also the muzzle blast and recoil though they will be subjective.
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  #7  
Old 02-17-2012, 10:27 PM
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Well I am kind of thinking the same thing, I could get 24" x62 performance, from a 22" barrel. Seems to be a fair trade off. I guess I just like having something a bit different. Heck I had a 300wsm about one year after it was introduced! It was fun being "that guy" with the new fangled thing.

I do believe I am leaning more and more towards the 370 vs the x62 and x64, if anything, just to have a conversation piece.
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  #8  
Old 05-06-2012, 02:53 PM
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John Barsness has published some x62 load data that he had pressure tested. He had it loaded to modern 30-06 pressures instead of the lower CIP 9.3x62 pressures. IMHO any modern bolt gun should be able to handle those loads with ease.

250gr Nosler Accubond - 2650fps from 23.6" barrel
285 gr bullet - 2450fps from 23.6" barrel

that would probably put you at 2600fps out of a 22" barrel for the 250gr. The Data was printed in the Jan. 2012 issue of "Guns" magazine and is available from their website free online digitally. I am a 9.3 fan and would love to have x66 or x64, but the brass situation kinds keeps me from them, for now. my main go to hunting rifle is a x62. With Hornady, Remington, and PRVI supporting the x62 now it is hard to not push it towards the top of the list......it's no longer an obscure Euro cartridge.....especially with modern pressure tested load data available.

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  #9  
Old 05-06-2012, 03:38 PM
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Modern powders at modern pressures plus a 24" barrel will get you so much of the Sako's velocity back in the x62 that no critter on earth would ever notice the difference. I'd stay with the Mauser.
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  #10  
Old 05-13-2012, 11:26 AM
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.35 Whelen as a Magnum?

I have been reading this thread and not knowing exactly what a .35 Whelen is, looked at it on another website that offers dimensioned line drawings of several thousand cartridges. I see it is a .30-06 Springsteen with its mouth opened to accept a .358" bullet. Nice how Colonel Whelen kept the shoulder angle at 17 30' and in the same location as on the parent. My wildcat is an adaptation of the .30-06 in that I have made it into a magnum using 375Ruger Basic brass. I looked at some brass I kept in their various stages of forming and I see a possibility: What if the .35 Whelen could be made into a Magnum? Below is a picture of my brass as it goes through the forming stages.



The Raw case is the basic brass as you get it from Hornady under p/n 8674. Lower datum diameter is 0.530 inches.

FD 1 is how it comes out of the first forming die as manufactured by Hornady. Its outside diameter at the mouth is 0.477 inches and the bottom of the shoulder bend is at 1.83-some inches from the head.

FD 2 is how it comes out of the second forming die. Its outside diameter is 0.427 inches with the neck being about 0.750 inches long on the as-yet-untrimmed case. The inside diameter of FD 2 is about 0.400 inches. See where I'm going with this?

FD 3 is the product of the third forming die. Its OD is 0.378-plus at the mouth and its ID is "red hair close" at 0.348 inches. The neck is about 0.480 long but will still have to be trimmed down a tad, yielding a finished case length of 2.494 inches. I have to "short-trim" the cases to get them to go through FD 3 and the resizing die else those two dies will crush the shoulder. Ben Syring at Hornady made a bit of a mistake when he didn't design the dies to have a straight shot all the way through. There is a slight lip on the bore of the dies at their upper mouths that impacts the case when forcing it through FD 3 and the resizing die, causing the crush if I don't pre-trim to come up short of that lip.

The case to the far right is the finished wildcat case before the neck is turned. We are not concerned with that one because it is .30-caliber.

My thinking is what if .35 Whelen fans took my dies and formed up the basic case using FD1 and FD2 from the unformed Ruger375 brass and then ran them through dies specifically made for your application by Hornady to finish out the final shape you want? As you can see, FD1 and FD2 are already designed. Prints are kept on file. It would be nothing for Hornady's new CNC machines to spin out two of those for you at $78 each. Ben Syring can then take your idea and design an FD3 for you that will take the semi-formed brass one step closer to the final product. Then he'll design the resizing die that takes it all the way. The shoulder angle on the .30-06 is so gentle, fireforming is not required. Saves you time and money. I'd expect you will have to turn the neck. I did for my cartridge, but it's not a big deal. If you don't want to turn necks, ask Dave Manson of self-named reamer fame to design the reamer so you don't need to turn. He'll leave extra clearance around the neck and you'll save the cash that a turning set-up costs. It ain't that much and once you have it, you'll never need to buy one again, save for expansion irons for different calibers you're sure to wildcat in the future. Well, maybe. And don't forget: Turned necks in a close-fit neck bore are believed to yield better accuracy. At least that's what all them benchresters say...

The wildcat resizing die is also 78 bucks. If you use Hornady reloading dies with the sliding bullet guide sleeve, all you need do is change the sleeve for .358-caliber bullets and you'll save the money for the seating die. My three forming dies and two reloading dies were right at $400.00 and took about four months to manufacture. They arrived last September. Hornady has since put one or two new CNC machines on-line and can spit out product much faster, now. Your wait may be only half of what mine was.

Now, to the rifle. You could take your present rifle, open the boltface, widen the feed rails, change out the extractor (on CRF rifles) for a magnum one with its wider radius, change out the follower to a magnum type, set the barrel back one or two threads, cut the chamber on that fresh steel and rock forward with gusto. I think that's about right, but I've been known to be wrong several times an hour. At least that's what she says. If you already have a 300RUM with a shot-out barrel and want to go up in bore you could just buy a blank barrel, have it installed, cut the chamber and do the brass thing. Just a suggestion...

Is it worth it? Is any wildcat worth it? We do it for the experience, for the experiment, for the challenge and to have something we can call entirely our own. Why do people take cars and hotrod them when it will go from A to B just as well in bone-stock condition? Well, there's always the experience, the experiment, et cetera...

Last edited by nvshooter; 05-13-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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  #11  
Old 05-13-2012, 11:38 AM
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I just noticed...

I say in the above post that the neck on the case from FD3 is 0.480 inches long. I just looked in my reloading manual and I see the neck on a proper .35 Whelen case is 0.462 inches long. That's screamin' close. Looks like the case from FD 3 is already just a spit from being a .35 Whelen Magnum. Might need just a small trimming to get it really close. Then a smash through your custom sizing die, trim to final length and you're there. That Whelen guy sure had it together, didn't he?

Another thought: Manson reamers are $200 each for the rotating-pilot type. I recommend them over the fixed-pilot type ($170) to reduce chatter as the chamber is cut. What's 30 lousy bucks when you're sneaking through unexplored wildcat territory? What's 30 lousy bucks when a rotating pilot will save you tons in break-in time and expense? I say spend the extra few bucks and know you did the best you could from the get-go. Headspace gauges are $50 each. I ordered both the GO and NO-GO. Best to take the best equipment to the gunsmith you can. Dave Manson will work with you to get to exactly what you seek in your wildcat. So will Ben Syring. I found them both to be very supportive of my idea and easy to reach via email. If you have a hankering to design a long-action, magnum wildcat that needs no expensive fireforming, uses easily-procured cylinder brass and you like .358-caliber slugs, I offer this to you for exactly what you paid for it...

Last edited by nvshooter; 05-13-2012 at 12:48 PM.
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  #12  
Old 05-14-2012, 01:38 PM
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pretty good idea, but you would be reinventing the .358 Norma mag that's not a wildcat. Also, I believe the 9.3 bore has a better selection of rifle bullets than the .358 bore.

IMHO the modern 9.3 killed support for the .358. a writer who's word i respect has stated that inorder to see a real increase in performance on game (with all other things fairly equal) you need to jump up at least .030"-.040" in diameter. With the .358 between the the .338 and 9.3, it offers no big advantages other than to fill a "want" for someone. the .338 offer better Sectional Densities for the same bullet weights and the 9.3 offers heavier bullets with good Sectional Densities than the .358.

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  #13  
Old 05-15-2012, 07:22 AM
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I do not believe you'll find the selection of bullets for the 9.3 that is there for the .358. I own both and you can get a bunch of bullet weight & types for the .35 starting at 180 (FN & TSX) and continuing on to 200, 220, 225, 250, 265, 275 and even 310 & 320gr. That being said, I'd rather have a 9.3 (the one I own now is a 9.3x74) in hand with 286gr Partition or TSX in a close encounter with something wanting to get up close & personal. I like both and think there is room for both to be useful and I prefer both over a .338 for big and nasty.
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  #14  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:23 PM
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Seriously mods?!?! WILDCATS? This thread has been moved TWICE now, from rifles, where I started it, and where I would have probably got more info, to gunsmithing, because I made mention of a gunsmith building, and now it has been moved again to wildcats? I mean, why mods? This is a FACTORY cartridge, available in FACTORY rifles. Ugh.

Well thanks for the replies fellas, I guess being moved got it some new attention lol.

I ended up deciding to go with the x62 after it was all said and done. however, the deal with Z-Hat fell through, so I'm on the hunt for another smith. If I ask who you guys recommend maybe it'll get moved back to gunsmithing lol
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  #15  
Old 05-15-2012, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
I do not believe you'll find the selection of bullets for the 9.3 that is there for the .358. I own both and you can get a bunch of bullet weight & types for the .35 starting at 180 (FN & TSX) and continuing on to 200, 220, 225, 250, 265, 275 and even 310 & 320gr. That being said, I'd rather have a 9.3 (the one I own now is a 9.3x74) in hand with 286gr Partition or TSX in a close encounter with something wanting to get up close & personal. I like both and think there is room for both to be useful and I prefer both over a .338 for big and nasty.
I have always thought lack of bullets in lots of different grains as a very poor excuse to choose/not choose a particular cartridge, IMHO. If you can get a Nosler Partition or Accubond, and a TSX/TTSX, I don't care what else is available, you got 2/3 of the best choices on earth right there. For the 9.3, you can also add in the A-Frame, and several Euro bullets, not to mention some botique stuff like North Fork, CEB and that place from RSA that I can't recall the name of right now.

Hey, if there was a GOOD factory option in 375 based on a 30-06 case, I'd go that way. But the Whelen/Hawk/Scovill, are all cats, and the 370/x62 are factory. I have no problems with a cat, I just don't want to bother with them currently.
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  #16  
Old 05-18-2012, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advntrjnky View Post
pretty good idea, but you would be reinventing the .358 Norma mag that's not a wildcat. Also, I believe the 9.3 bore has a better selection of rifle bullets than the .358 bore.


advntrjnky
I had no idea. I know nothing about .358-caliber firearms or their ammunition. Not the field upon which I play. My post was just an idea to throw out there as food upon which the wildcatters we have in these pages could feed...
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Old 05-18-2012, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by nvshooter View Post
I had no idea. I know nothing about .358-caliber firearms or their ammunition. Not the field upon which I play. My post was just an idea to throw out there as food upon which the wildcatters we have in these pages could feed...
Actually if you were using 375 Ruger as the base case, the 358 version would be more powerful then the 358 Norma, since it is based on a shortened 375 H&H case, or in other words, the standard Win Mag case.

Looking at the pics above, if you pushed the neck up more, took out some taper, basically just necking DOWN the 375 Ruger, you would stomping reaaal close on the 358 STW's front door step, if not knocking on it's door.
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  #18  
Old 05-18-2012, 06:41 PM
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I have both the 9.3x62 (cz 550 fs) and the 376 Steyr (custom 15 7/8" encore barrel). Haven't had the chance to chrony the Steyr yet, but with 232gr vulcans-- my tx hog round of choice--the 9.3x62 from the CZ gives me around 2700 fps. I'm hoping I get 2500 with the Steyr and 270 gr loads. Nice choice on the cartridge.
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Last edited by DCAMM94; 05-18-2012 at 06:49 PM.
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  #19  
Old 05-20-2012, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MileHighShooter View Post
Actually if you were using 375 Ruger as the base case, the 358 version would be more powerful than the 358 Norma because it is based on a shortened 375 H&H case, or in other words, the standard Win Mag case.

Looking at the pics above, if you pushed the neck up more, took out some taper, basically just necking DOWN the 375 Ruger, you would stomping reaaal close on the 358 STW's front doorstep, if not knocking on its door.
I offered what I did because the first two of the three forming dies a wildcatter would need are already designed and can be spun out of Hornady's new CNC machines in essentially no time at all. I waited four months for my dies. The new machines are on-line and ready to go to work for anyone who wants something special. By "taper," I assume you mean the conical portion of the case above the shoulder and below the neck. Is that correct? I chose the shoulder angle of my mildcat so as to best insure good feeding. I see the 17.50-degree shoulder as being to able to be stripped from the magazine and into pushed the chamber 'bout as smoothly as a ball bearing rolls around on glass. I have fought a rifle for six-plus years that won't feed. My fault, really: I chambered a long-action receiver (Montana M1999) for a short-action round (300WSM). My mildcat is my effort to correct my greenhorn mistake. If you mean taper from the lower datum to the shoulder, I think I have all of 0.020 inches taper (0.010 inches per side) in something like 1.6 inches or something like that. I can't remember right now. I am no wildcatting genius. I just read a few things about "bolt thrust" and discerned that a lot of case taper forces the case backwards when it's fired and can cause "sticky bolt lift." Sounds bad. Lord knows we don't want that.

The new Hart barrel should be at my gunsmith's place very soon. Maybe two weeks; maybe as many as four. I pray he gets on it right away so I can bring you the range results for four or five bullets and three or four powders. I will shoot 150-grain FMJs (for comparison to .308Win), 165-grain Hornady SST hunting bullets, 180-grain Sierra HPBT target bullets and Hornady 220-grain, jacketed, round-nose elk exploders. Also have some 178-grain Hornady A-max, but they are so close to the Sierras I ask "Why bother?" Got some 168-grain Hornady BTHP A-max Matchies but again, why bother? Powders are H4831SC, IMR 7828SSC, RL-19 and I think one of the 4350 varieties. Can't remember that, either...
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:47 PM
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N.V. Shooer. You don't really need more than one under bore finish reamer and it's Go guage. My case forming set brings those basics down; 450 bullet, 400 bullet, 35 bullet, and a F.L. 323 sizer die. Turned out that I needed one in between the 45 and the 40. This is a file trim die with a faux neck that is about 11mm. You have to grab the neck in order to file or hacksaw it. My own G.S.'s neck throat reamers did the rest, after putting on an oversized pilot.

But, I'm curious. What is the H2O volume, to the case mouth, of that 30 cal. version??

***** Lonnie Hummel set up my Boer 8mm Mag. order before Ben S. took over the Hornady custom desk. We noted that the most you can draw down this really tough Hornady case is 0.050 inch, at a time. So, what you have measured is this .050" draw which leaves things just like they came out of a F.L. sizer die, without the elliptical expander button. You could then use the correct expander, and then leave things .002" under the bullet diameter. Hornady uses this bullet diameter, minus .002" for all of it's elliptical expander buttons. To squeeze a .450 caliber out of this case, you have to use absolutely minimum body taper, and a pretty sharp shoulder angle.

My set does this, in stage one, by using a 26 deg. shoulder angle, which morphs into my 16 degree shoulder, on the Stage two Form die. But doing that and putting in all my taper, at once, was too much, so then, later, Ben Syring did up a Stage 1.5, file trim die, which only puts in the taper and a faux shoulder, to hold the case against the hacksaw blade, and or, file. This trick really evened out the work load on the press handle. It also made my Wilson case trimmer a lot quicker to spin down my case mouths. A mini tube cutter, had proved to be more trouble than it was worth.

Also, you can try to use a virgin 375 Ruger case, and it will save you a bunch of work. My drill is to use that Stage 1.5, and put all of my new taper into the blocky 375 Ruger cases, before I try and form the necks. My faux shoulder is about 11mm, so the 375 Ruger necks, slip right on through. Once you have your taper set, then you can neck down to whatever you want, as long as the case walls are fully supported, and you only go that 0.050" at a draw.

The second golden lining is that both my Lyman 416 Rigby seating die, and my custom 10.6 mm sleeved seater, can and will buckle the shoulders just enough to prevent my ammo from chambering, when I aggressively crimp my bullets. Even necking up the 375 case to .416 leaves some windage between that faux neck's 11mm, outside diameter. This stage 1.5, taper only, file trim die, irons out the bulge, and returns the shoulder to where it head spaces again, and can be chambered. Obviously, if you totally collapse the shoulders, the case is ruined.

But these Hornady custom desk wildcat reloading dies are CNC'd so close to your fired sample cases that even a 2 or 3 thousandths bulge will prevent you from chambering a round. I have worked up pretty hot, and I still haven't seen any bulging ahead of the solid case head's transition to the case body. None of my commercial rifle chambers are anywhere near this precise, using factory ammo.

Put on a really good shooting barrel, with proper bedding, and you will be surprised at what your hand loads and reloads can do.

Last edited by carpooler; 05-21-2012 at 08:54 AM. Reason: recovering from jet lag
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