I am interested in a "wildcat" using the 444 standard full length case with the Hornady FTX 444 Marlin bullet. I don't intend to stuff this in my level action because of pressure issues foremost and secondarily the other modifications that would be required, if it would even work. However, what about using a single shot rifle as a platform such as the T/C Encore/Pro Hunter series, Axis or Ruger #1.

A search of the web finds nothing on this idea, but maybe I missed it.

Why? Two answers 1) why not and 2) more power.

Thank in advance for your insights.

I'm not going to tell you it won't work, because you can do as you please. But.... the .444 already lacks case capacity. Not sure what powders you would use to improve performance. Even beyond the Marlin pressure limits I don't think you'll gain much.

Now..... neck down a 45-70 to .44 cal and chamber in a #1 with pointy bullets.... might be interesting.

Personal opinion / speculation only!

__________________
MikeG

Welcome to the site whitesheep, glad you joined us!

I don't see why it couldn't be done. Just need a little more free bore to compensate for the shape of the bullet.

__________________
Still Learnin' as I go!

NRA Life Member

Welcome to the forum, Whitesheep! I think you'll find this is just about the friendliest and most informative gun forum on the interwebz!

I'm not sure what MikeG is referring to: You're not talking about necking anything down, you're just wanting to load full-length 444 Marlin rounds in a single-shot rifle. Correct? There is certainly no trick to that. Buy/build a rifle chambered for 444 Marlin, have it throated for the longish FTX bullets (not sure which one you're got in mind) and fire away. It's not like the 444 is running at 60,000psi or anything, so you're not really working with a "wildcat"...you're shooting a 444 Marlin.

Easy-peasy.

__________________
Ask me about QDMA.

Why neck down? Just stick the 300 gr. TTSX Barnes bullet or the 250 to 325 gr. Hornady 'pointy bullets' in there and load that puppy up to full potential in a No. 1 and reach out and touch something.
Those higher BC bullets in a strong action like the No. 1 turns the .45-70 into something the originators could never have dreamed about. Personally, I feel those Barnes TTSX bullets breath a whole new life in the .45-70. And that is not speculation, that is from personally using them.

If you want to stick with the .444 for whatever reason, find a used No. 1 in .444( I think they once chambered in .444) and if you want to seat long, have it rethroated if need be. Rethroating is cheap and any smith worth the name can do that. Then all you will have to do is load 'em up and shoot 'em out.

__________________
Join the N.R.A.
On the 8th day, God created HKs.
Beware speaking with a sharp tongue as you are apt to cut your own throat.

I understand it's an unaltered .444 case. I just am of the opinion that little will be gained without more capacity, that's all.

Let use know how it works out....

__________________
MikeG

Thank you for the welcome and fast responses to my question.

The whole idea is to get more case capacity. My FTX handload match factory performance at max case capacity so I am happy about that. I tried some compressed loads above the book maximum, but accuracy degraded without much velocity increase. There were absolutely no signs of pressure issues so I thought if I had more case, I could maybe get a little more power out of this round.

FTX rounds are about 1/4 inch shorter than standard round to accommodate the longer bullet. I am not sure it would be possible to modify a .444 Marlin rifle to accept the longer bullet in the standard case unless you load one round at a time, which brought me to the idea of using a single shot rifle. But then, if you have a single shot, why bother with the FTX bullet and not go pointy. If going pointy why not just chamber a .416 Rigby and get it over with.

OK, full circle. I'll stick with the standard FTX .444 in my XLR since it kills Elk pretty dead as it is and just pull out bigger bolt action stuff if I want more power.

Thanks for helping me with my "pussy-cat" round idea.

i have 18 pcs. of .444 hornady brass for what i think you want.. let me know . to short for me to reload.

It was my assumption that the Leverevolution cases were made shorter to resolve feeding issues, and have nothing to do with the length of the throat. I don't see any reason full length cases wouldn't work just fine in a standard T/C Encore .444 Marlin barrel or any of the other firearms listed.

However, how much difference in length is there? I know for the .450 Marlin, we are only talking about a difference of 0.060" in case length. That hardly seems noteworthy. Edit: Oh, I see you answered this. 1/4" does seem like a lot, though I'd be surprised if you could measure the difference in performance.

I didn't realize the FTX cases were that much shorter, either. Sorry!

__________________
MikeG

Hi Whitesheep,

Hornady did pull a fast one here. You can only reload their shorter 444 Cases, with their New Dimension Reloading dies. Also, I don't think they will sell the large bore Lever Evolution powder. So loading the old, original 444 Marlin with the gummie tips, probably won't gain you very much. You would probably have to go more radical, and do a wildcat up from something like a flanged 375 H&H.

I made a Wildcat 44-356BB for a top ejector M-94 Winchester, before the LeverEvolutions. Because of the thicker brass, I only have 300 Sav. volumes. I can just get the 265 Gummies up into the bottom of their operating range, with IMR 4198. The early triple fours had really slow twists, while mine and the new LeverEvolutions have 1 in 20.

But be careful here. The 356BB has a different rim than the 444 Lever Evolution. The Flanged H&H Mag would have another, and the 9.3 x 74R would probably be even more different than the H&H.

edit. You might get a leg up, by having a Smith, chamber your single shot, as a true 52mm long Lever Evolution. You probably will want to use factory ammo while hunting, anyways. Simply short chamber with his 444 Marlin reamer, and use Hornady New Dimension dies. If you found a Ruger #3 single shot rifle as a donor, I guarantee you will have plenty of recoil. With a one in twenty twist, Marshall will sell you all kinds of heavy bullets. But Marlin 444's were noted for not having much throating.

The easiest way to get into this is with a 444 Handi-Rifle. Fits full length brass with whatever bullet you want and you can hot rod to your hearts content. I think the extra 20K or so with the extra capacity and 22 inch barrel would make quite a burner.
Ron

Hi NOYB,

I've chronoed my 44-356BB, in a twenty inch barreled 94 Winchester. I am topping out with 1850fps. Working range for these 265 gr. gummie tips is 1800-2200fps. You can get this top velocity out of a full length 444 Marlin. But the O.P. has noticed that these gummies won't feed from his magazine. The shorter factory 444 Lever Evolutions will, as will my even shorter (-1mm) 44 Marsh. I run out of velocity before I lose accuracy. So, I am limited to 200 yds. for a large Muley Buck. It's still one heck of a package.

What I think needs to be addressed is that shooting the factory ammo in the full length 444M chambers, means the bullet rattles along the unsupported chamber wall, before it tries to re-center itself in the leade. And they dare advertise this as an extended range job?

To add insult to injury, Marlin uses a dinky twin extractor system. So their 444 Marlin has a semi flanged rim. The 307 and 356 Winchester big bores, use a true 30 WCF rim, behind an oversized extraction groove. This is why Winchester reinforced their case heads. If the O.P. has his G.S. set his Marlin's barrel back and then short chambers it, then he will have about what I have. In the brush, a lever action repeater has it all over a single shot. The handy rifle approach will work, as these gummie tips will fit into the stock Marlin chamber leades. But this Lever Evolution package was designed to be used in repeaters.

Taking out the barrel metal for a 44 means that a Win. 94 carbine balances much like a Model 92 in 44WCF. Take that as one hard kicking carbine, over the bench.

If I had it to do over, I would have used a Marlin lever, and had my barrel set back to the 52 mm case length, so I could shoot factory Lever Evolution ammo. But my 51mm long wildcat, pre-dates these newer cartridges. Also, my top ejector post 64 lever Winnie, uses drop in guide rails and a follower, made for the 307 BB. So these three measly parts got my carbine up and running.

I am a lefty, so I don't care for the backwards cross bolt safeties and seeing the glint of the brass rim down the right cut away side of the angle ejects. But if the O.P. is right handed, then it should be a slam dunk, to redo one of the angle ejects, or even one of his Marlin 444 levers. Properly short chambered, these lever evolution factory bullets are very accurate, in the one in twenty twist, barrels.

I did up my wildcat in order to split the difference between the 401WSL carbine, and the carbine version of the 405 Winchester. With these 265 gr. gummie tips, at 1850 fps, I have accomplished exactly what I set out to do. Before these came out I was using a 316 gr. cast lead G.C. bullet with a bore riding band ahead of a full diameter, Keith style bearing band crimped in front of the case mouth. This custom bullet would work, seated in any 444 Marlin Lever Evolution brass case. It's the same length outside the case as the 265 gr. gummie tips.

I had worked up to nearly 1600 fps. with it in Buffalo Arms, old #2 Lyman alloy, before I discovered the 265 Flex Tips. These jacketed numbers are just more elegant. But shooting these cast bullets, I was getting 50% hits on a gong at 300 yards using iron sights as well as my offset 4 power scope. In a full length 444 Marlin case, these heavy cast bullets would just have to be seated deeper, to clear the receiver's ports. So, it's almost a wash.

This means there's really no reason to cram in the full length 444 Marlin cases. The new, non canister super performance powder, which Hornady loads these Lever Evolutions with, cancels out the slight increase in volume. And it's already out there in reliable factory ammo. The problem seems to me to be, that nobody has chambered a rifle, expressly for it, yet.

Tongue in cheek, here. But if my 44 Marsh is derived from 444 Marlin Short chambered, then this barrel might be stamped, as the 44 MarLE, and pronounced, (44 Marlee). The Hornady people advertize this at 2300fps+, out of a 24 inch barrel. So a twenty inch number should kiss 2000 fps. This is about 150 fps, faster than my 44 Marsh, loaded with available canister powders. Both of these numbers will out perform a 375 Win. BB, in a carbine length barrel, and make a larger hole/exit wound, to boot.

Sounds like a great time. Glad it's working for you. But the OP asked about single shots. The great thing about the gummy tips is the BC advantage compared to any other .429 bullet. Put that in front of a full length case full of slow powder at 60ishK psi and you basically have a baby magnum. I agree that a repeater has the advantage in the bush, but if you wanted a .429 bore to reach out and touch someone using a factory chamber, this is the best your going to get. You would basically have a 45-70 load for strong actions only with less bullet choice. Come to think of it a 60K load would probably be to fast for this bullet unless you let it slow down for a hundred yards or so.

The other great deal with this is that you haven't messed with the gun, so you can still use your off the counter ammo or big, heavy lead slug loads depending on what your needs are. I think it would be a great idea for someone who has a lever because the hot loads wouldn't cycle.

Thanks
Ron

I see your point, but the non canister, super performance powder, really does put an extra 200+ fps into the tank. Since they can't sell it, for very good reasons, in a 1 lb. can, then this factory stuff trumps the full length 444 Marlin cases.

My solution is; "if you can't beat em, join em". What hasn't been done is to make up some wildcats, with correct chambers for this new ammo. I stand by my statement that this "package", is meant for a lever action repeater. But it is not a Marlin rimmed 307BB, blown out. It's a longer case, by one millimeter, or 0.040". So, all in all, if the O.P. is right handed, he can work over an angle eject, or a Marlin lever, for nearly the same price as a single shot, and have three times the woods rifle.

If I were to just go for a single shot, at this power level, it would be a 9.3 x 74R. This is the same case as the 444 Marlin, but with it's own full rim, and long enough to hold enough canister powder to blow away the super performance Hornady 444 M. stuff. It's 286 grain bullets are about the same as the 265 gr. stuff in the gummie tips.

But what you may not be aware of, is that Hornady did originally make the 444 Marlin Lever Evolution ammo with the 300 gr. bullet. I bought a box of it just to pull the bullets, but even though they had two cannelures, neither of them would work with my 51mm long BB cases. Shooting these in the older 444 Marlin levers must have been a disaster, since they dropped this number like a rock.

But if someone pioneers a true 52 mm long chamber, then I bet that somewhere, there's a warehouse with a couple of tons of this ammunition sitting on some shelves. And any rifle with the new; read, late Win. M. 92, twist rate of one turn in twenty inches, rifling, will stabilize it just fine.

It also used the super performance non canister powder, and so also got the 200+ fps, extra kick. Now if that ammo came back onto the shelves, the O.P. could throat out a full length 444 Marlin single shot, load these 300 gr. gummies out, to crimp into the bottom cannelures, and then he really would have a blaster and a half. That is as long as he had the quicker twist barrel. And this one would work through the handi rifle, or a custom 444 Marlin Encore.

But with the skimpy flange for a rim, extraction might still be a problem, in any break over action. So looking back at this retrenchment by Hornady, I am sticking with my pre-evoluton, Win. model 94, 44 Marsh wildcat. My chamber is just a short chambered 444 Marlin, and so it has the exact same throating as the factory Marlin rifles. I guess I will just do without the added punch of the fancy non canister powder, and live at the cusp of 1600fps, with my heavy cast bullets.

But if I re barrel a Rem. Rolling Block, I'm going with either a full length, rimmed, blown out 30-40 Krag case, or a 303 Brit. case. Neither the BB case, nor the Lever Evolution job, really gives enough purchase for a falling block's extractor, IMO. Although I do have one RR action with the "woodruff key" version of the extractor, that did snap into the rimless 7mm Mauser's ext. groove. But this will come down to which G.S. I have do this job, in the future.

But, honestly, just putting a 45-70 Gov't barrel into one of these old rollers, would be so much simpler. And Hornady makes gummie tipped bullets for this old warhorse, too. The .429" bore will always be a revolver rated number, just as the .457 bore will always be it's big brother. And both of these were introduced way back in 1873, between the end of the Civil War, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn.

The 44WCF got it's quicker, one in twenty twist, in the model 92 Winchester, when smokeless powder came into the picture. But the ammo companies had to keep the black powder pressures, for the old original 1873 toggle locks, and black powder Colts. This started a progression which has brought us right up to this thread. Now the game is between longer cases, throated chambers, and some select factory ammo, loaded with a powder, which cannot be sold in a 1 lb. can.

I understand that Hornady doesn't use the Superformance powder in the straight walled FTX loads such as the 444 and 45-70, so you aren't missing anything. Factory 265 gr FTX loads you refer to as "gummies" in my Marlin XLR with a 24" barrel chrono at 2200 fps four feet from the muzzle. I am able to duplicate this performance in once fired factory brass using 47.5 gr of Accurate 1600, which is the max load from Hornady's load book. More powder will not fit without a severely compressed load that requires a very hard crimp. I tried and accuracy suffered with little gain in speed, but no signs of over pressure.

The factory loads and my loads are good for 1 MOA. According to my ballistic calculator when zeroed at 200 yards I will be 3.7" high at 100 yards at 2133 FPE and down 5.8" at 250 with 1347 FPE and low by 15.2" at 300 yards, 1153 FPE. In my opinion this limits this gun/load to a 250 yard setup. I shot 5x5 bull Elk on the move at 250 yards in 2011 and got the job done so I know this works in the field as well as on paper.

It would be interesting to build a Marlin 444 that would handle the longer case with a FTX bullet to keep the "woods gun" attributes of a lever. As other posters have said, if you move to a single shot, why limit yourself to a "gummie" bullet that is a compromise for a lever action's tubular magazine. I have a .340 Wby Mag Accumark that is my next step up in power in my modest collection if I need it. It weighs more, kicks more, but can shoot further more accurately than I can.

OK, if Hornady was going to use anything with the 265gr FTX loads, it would be LeverEvolution powder, NOT Superformance. Hodgdon is not currently showing any loads for this cartridge, using either.

Also, there is no such thing as "Accurate 1600" powder. I think you're referring to AA1680, but I'm not sure.

The FTX bullets offer two advantages, in theory. Hornady would have us believe they are safe in tubular magazines, and I don't think anyone is arguing that point. However, they would also have us believe that they offer a significant improvement in BC, but the larger the caliber you are shooting, the less of an improvement you actually see. With the 30 caliber bullets, it's noteworthy...with the 35's, not AS much and with the 44 and 45 caliber bullets, the increase in BC over a flat point or hollow-point bullet (like the XTP) just isn't that much at all.

__________________
Ask me about QDMA.

You are right Broom JM, I intended Accurate 1680, not 1600. I apologize.

Interesting point in the FTX not providing much improvement in the larger calibers. What is the source of your information?

I have some 320 gr Cast Performance loads that run 2100 FPS with 49 gr of H322, which is about all the powder that will fit, I pulled 2100 FPS which isn't much less than the 265 FTX at 2200. As for ballistics compared to the 265 the 320 is 6.1" high at 100 (200 zero) with 2047 FPE, 1316 FPE at 200 yards and down 7.9" at 250 with 1054 FPE. 300 yards is down 22.4" and 892 FPE. I assumed a BC of 156 for the 320 CP as I couldn't find a BC on the CP web site, but found this unverified reference on a pistol forum (the 256 FTX has a BC of .225 so neither is very good.) No offense to Beartooth as their stuff is fine, but CP is where I started with HC bullets and that is what I had on hand to test with. Ballistics courtesy of Bullet Flight L2 Ballistics on my iphone..

For hunting Elk, which is what this gun is for, the 265 gr FTX beats the 320 hands down in my opinion given my limited testing. Your results may vary considerably and I would like to hear about them.

Oh yeah, The Leverevolution poweder is not used in the .444 or the .45-70 as far as I know and you are right the Superperformance isn't either. Looks like A1680 is about as good as it gets for the FTX load.

Broom, you are half right. I was using the generic term super performance, non canister powder to describe the boost in the factory ammo. If the individual rifle powder called SuperPerformance, does come in a can, than it's a canister grade powder. I was trying to point out the advantage Hornady is putting into their Lever Evolution 444 Marlin cartridges. My understanding, is that the special powder for the smaller L. E. cartridges is available in canister grade cans. But that the special powder blends for the large bores, cannot be sold in cans, period.

My point is that re-chambering for this 52 mm. long case, with the stock Marlin throat, would trump the O.P.'s plan. My M 94,post 64 top ejector, has a claw extractor that doesn't like the Marlin's flanged rim. The later Angle Ejects, use a hook extractor, which can be tuned for the Marlin's unique rim. And of course, any 336 Marlin lever will handle them.

If you take a pair of pliers and pull out the gummie tip, you will see just how tinny these bullets are. Both the 9.3 x 74R and the 405 Win. are way ahead of what the O.P. can possibly get out of these bullets in a full length 444 Marlin case. The 300 gr. gummy tips were probably a real disaster in the earlier slow twist 444 Marlins. In a throated out full length 444 Marlin chamber, in a single shot, these 300 grain flex tips might just be what he's looking for. But Hornady is sitting on them, somewhere.

So, in the meantime, I'd suggest that he short chamber for the new L.E. 52 mm cases, with the stock throats, but only in a moderately heavy, 1 in 20 twist barrel. The accuracy at 300 yards will surprise him, and this is pushing the limits of the working range of this 265 gr. ammo. He will have a honest 100 yards more effective range than I do with my slightly smaller 44 Marsh, using canister powders. I'm holding to 200 yards, as my maximum effective range.

I believe if enough of these 44 MarLE (Marley) rifles were in use, then Hornady might release some of that neat 300 grain ammo, again. Only when these heavy flexies are out as components, will he have the bullet he needs for the full length 444 Marlin blaster, he's proposing.

There is one positive qualifying point about these 444 Marlin ideas. In the larger 45-70 Gov't. rifles, Marlin has "influenced" the magazine tube towards the loading gate. So the round setting against the receive is canted over. This adds some danger if the wrong bullets are loaded. The mag tube in my post 64 wildcat is likewise canted over, for the same reason. It helps the round being loaded, make the corner into the mag tube.

IIRC, the 1886 replicas in 45-70, and the Marlins in the 444 lever models, don't require this short cut. I just don't know about the 444 M. in the Angle Ejects. Hornady also says to not leave these Flex tips in your tube magazine, for any extended period of time. They will "mush over", from the spring tension.

If I make up another 44 Marsh, or maybe a 44 MarLE, I will use a heavier half oct. barrel, to get some balance, and to dampen the recoil. In the meantime, I have a 44 Magnum's, magnum. And yes, I am going to try out some Trail Boss, with the light duty 44 gummie tipped pistol bullets.

If my 44 Marsh, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, weighs in as a M-92, balances like a M-92, and uses the late M-92 rifling pitch, well then, maybe it really needs a M-92 class, smokeless, gummie tip, utility load. If the O.P. scores a light weight Ruger #3, to make his S.S. blaster, I betcha, he too, will learn to appreciate Trail Boss, under the 44 pistol gummie tips. Shooting a passel of these souped up 444 Marlins from over the bench, is like having too much fun! Been there, done that! Hey! (BTDT).