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Which one? 338 Win mag or the Rem Ultra?

129K views 198 replies 68 participants last post by  kdub 
#1 ·
I will most likely be moving to AK this December if we get orders as we anticipate so I find myself asking a lot of questions these days.
The bulk of my past experience is hunting in Maine (I'm hooked on moose hunting), and I understand that the Maine woods is tame in comparision to Alaska and the moose are bigger too.
It is evident to me that I need to get a more powerful rifle than my 444 Marlin or 308, so I am looking into a 338 Win Mag or a 338 Rem Ultra Mag. It seems that those are the most versatile cartridges for AK if you are going to use just one rifle. The 338 Win Mag is the MINIMUM that has been recommended to me for big Browns. The problem I am having is the 338 Win Mag ( in a Savage 116 FSAK) has a magazine capacity of 3, and the Ultra Mag has a capacity of 2 but a lot more power and range. So I would like to get some expert Alaskan opinions on that one. I plan on ALWAYS having my 500 S&W on me in the woods, but if a brownie can run upwards of 30mph (and get there quick), I don't know if there is much time to draw, aim, and shoot inside of 150 yards (after firing a rifle) if the bear decides to launch. I have been told to always prepare for an immediate follow-up shot, but I wonder if the added bullet weights, increased load choices ( I handload),and velocity of the Ultra Mag would make up for the extra round in the magazine in the Win Mag?
Could someone give me a hand deciding? If anyone has any other info feel free to tell me.
 
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#52 ·
alyeska338 said:
I don't think your ten round magazines would be illegal. That AR would be a good light setup too.

Here's the website for the Hunting and Trapping regs.
http://www.wildlife.alaska.gov/regulations/allregs.cfm
I just moved from Eielson a month ago, we spent 5 years there, and miss it terribly. I carried either a 45/70 or .300 Win Mag for hunting, as far as the pistol goes, I carried a variety from .44 to .454, but mostly my .45 Colt, it is a last ditch insurance plan. When you start hiking through the muskeg, and across the tundra, you will find that weight does become an issue. I would say the best moose hunting in that area is either off the Rex trail, the Wood river, or across the Tanana from North Pole. The .338 should serve you well, I would personally find a good 225gr or 230gr load for the interior, if you do any caribou hunting the flatter trajectory can come in handy. For the GS, a good hardcast bullet of over 400grs is all you need, don't sell the .444 short either, moose hunting in the area is often in some really thick stuff and shots aren't very long. I took a nice grizzly in Sept. '02 with my .300, but my 45/70 would have worked just as well (I was inbetween 45/70s at the time), shot him at 82 yards. People are friendly in that entire area, the Eielson BX has a decent gun counter, and even sells some reloading supplies, prices are higher due to being near the end of the supply chain, but not really any worse than California. Be prepared for long winters, and beautiful but short summers. Wish you well, and when I retire from the Air Force in 20 months, hope to move back up there, maybe do some hunting.

Dave
 
#53 ·
Thanks for the info Beeman, we will be arriving in August at Eielson so I won't have much time to scout the area. All I realy want to shoot this fall is a moose, next year I want to go all out though.

I sold the 444 in order to get the 45/70, can't wait to use it.
 
#54 ·
Joe, I figure I'd throw my two cents worth in here, I've never hunted Alaska, but I have used my 338 for evrything from field rifle competion shooting to prarie dogs to deer, and I have found in my experience that the best all around bullet in mine has beed the 225gr regardless of brand. It seems to have the best balance between weight and velocity, and when you get out there a ways, it looks even better because of retained energy and such. I have loaded everything in it from the 180gr to the 270's and while it shot the bigger stuff good, the middle weight stuff just really seemed to shine, kinda like a 180gr in a 30-06, it's just hard to beat. I would also recommend North Fork Technologies, they are made about 20 miles from my house here, and although they are costly, they are some really good bullets, and Mike (the owner) is a great guy to deal with. Keep us informed on how it goes.

George

P.S. I forgot to mention, my rifle is a Ruger M77 in 338WM
 
#55 ·
stanfield said:
Joe, I figure I'd throw my two cents worth in here, I've never hunted Alaska, but I have used my 338 for evrything from field rifle competion shooting to prarie dogs to deer, and I have found in my experience that the best all around bullet in mine has beed the 225gr regardless of brand. It seems to have the best balance between weight and velocity, and when you get out there a ways, it looks even better because of retained energy and such. I have loaded everything in it from the 180gr to the 270's and while it shot the bigger stuff good, the middle weight stuff just really seemed to shine, kinda like a 180gr in a 30-06, it's just hard to beat. I would also recommend North Fork Technologies, they are made about 20 miles from my house here, and although they are costly, they are some really good bullets, and Mike (the owner) is a great guy to deal with. Keep us informed on how it goes.

George

P.S. I forgot to mention, my rifle is a Ruger M77 in 338WM
Thanks, I will definitely make an effort to work up some 225 - 230 grain loads and give them a try. However, I don't anticipate having much time to work on any handloading until this winter. Moose season will be comming up shortly after I get to Alaska, and I probably won't get much time to do any good scouting beforehand. I plan on just settling in and if I happen upon the right situation I will get a moose. Next year should be a different story...:D
 
#56 ·
Good luck and good shooting. Man I would love to go up there and hunt, I'd have to visit before I'd know if I wanted to leave Wyoming for good, don't know that I could find a job there. One of these day's I'll go hunting there, I just gotta strike oil first since I don't have any rich uncles.
 
#57 · (Edited)
Somekin Joe...........Alasyka338 knows what is going on in his state and can give advise only most of us can speculate about in all honesty.

I am glad you have the 338 win mag! I know that using the Swift A Frames in 250 or 275 will do you justice in any of those would be bear encounters. Your 45/70 will work well also up close with the right loads, however I don't really trust the action on the lever guns for such critters in the wild.

I wish I was 30 years younger and could be in your shoes now by golly, I envy your opportunity to be in one of the best places on the planet for a hunter and one who enjoys the wild.
Good Luck to ya! :) :) :)
 
#58 ·
** .338 Ultra Mag . - AND HEAVIER ! **

I own a .338 Win. -- But wish I had the Ultra .

BECAUSE : -- In AK . , the chances of needing Dangerous-Game capability ( i.e. an exceedingly dependable weapon to face a charge with ) , is increased ) .

Brown Bears , Interior Grizzly , and wounded Moose are determined , tough animals , and when stoaked with adrenaline , -- will eat a lot of lead , and still kill you .

Non-Belted cases stack without all the wobble points , and FEED , without all the wobble points -- thus , a more reliable feed .

Make sure to get a Bolt-gun with CONTROLLED FEED ! ---
( same reason as above ) .

But , woe unto the unfortunate hunter that faces a Brownie or charging Bull-Moose with a .338 of any kind ; -- many documented cases of multiple hits with .338 not STOPPING an enraged Brown Bear , as well as Interior Griz .

The Editor of " Bear Hunting Magazine " , ( who is also an African Pro - Hunter ( I think ) ) , once said that .458 Win . W/ soft Point , is about as good as it gets to stop a Brown Bear CHARGE . --- That's an Opinion to be studied very closely . ---- These Critters charge at 40 ft per Second !

IMHO , --- in AK , hunt open country with a .338 Ultra , and 250 Gr. A-Frames , otherwise , and/or if in high-population Bear Range , hunt with a .375 H&H or larger , ( unless your partner has a .458 as backup ) .

My son now lives in Alaska , --- advised him to review S. Herrero Phd. 's book - " Bear attacks " before moving up there .

--------------- Best of luck , --- MMCOUGAR .
 
#60 ·
Alyeska 338-

The 215 grain Sierras shoot .50MOA in my .338 Ruger and have proven to be capable os 3 feet of penetration at 135 yards - not too shabby for a "light" bullet.

I also wanted to point out something that seems to be overlooked. I wrote an article about the SAKO .375 H&H carbine - yes, I said carbine, for the 1994 Gun Digest. It is light, fast, as accurate as I can shoot and recoil is not even noticed when hunting.

I used the 235 grain Speer bullet at just over 2,800 fps as my "deer load" and back it up with good solids ( Hornady or Woodleigh) when the potential for bigger, nastier animals is in the cards. There are many good solids out there.

Cast bullets for general use on deer and smaller meat animals out to 200 yards saves money, recoil is almost nonexistant, and the accuracy is just over 1.75 MOA for five rounds at 100 yards.

TheSAKO carbines are hard to find, but if I run into another one for sale I will grab it just to make sure that I have a back-up. As much as I like the .338 the .375 carbine has much to appreciate in a light, handy package.

My other "serious" rifle for dangerous nasties is my old Valmet double wearing the 9.3x74 Rimmed and the 12 guage barrel. I call this my lion and leopard gun. A good heavy bullet, such as the Woodleigh offers lots of range and punch while the 12 guage lets me take birds for the pot and load Benneke slugs or buckshot when something that can bite is in the puckerbush. Having this much stopping power with two twitches of my trigger finger is comforting. Of course I use the iron sights in the puckerbush and the Valmet comes up like a shotgun and almost, but not quite, shoots itself.

I don't know if Beretta, who now owns Valmet, will be bringing these back but I hope they do. They are strong, simple, and relatively inexpensive. They are also fairly light for the horsepower provided. With a couple sets of barrels they are a pretty good "all around hunting tool."


Bluesman

alyeska338 said:
I don't get this statement Rick. What I have found shooting the 338 Win Mag, for most long range hunting, bullets in the 225-230 grain weights are ideal for that work. The 250's just can't match them. Anything over 250 and drop becomes more pronounced. The 225-230 grain weights, when loaded near the top seem to be a little flatter than the 200 or 210 grain loads. I do have some 215 grain Sierra's, but haven't tried them yet.
 
#61 · (Edited)
338win mag

I lived in Alasaka for seven years and used the 338 win mag for everything such as sitka deer, carribou,moose.bears,and Dall sheep,at ranges up to 400 plus yards and found it to be perfectly up to the task. I used 250 grain partions loaded to 2797 fps. Today I use the barnes 225 grain tripple shocks.I also would recomend the 230 fail safe.Knowing ones rifle is more important than trojectory.I have rebarrelled my rifle with a Krieger match grade hand lapped barrel work done by Jack Huntington In Grass Valley Ca. 530-268-6877. the gun shoots .5" @ 100yards and Cronographs 3050fps, with Superior factory ammunition.
 
#62 ·
Reply to Aleska 338

alyeska338 said:
You probably can squeeze a few more feet per second, I'm not exactly sure about the penetration part. As the saying goes, I'll believe it when I see it. :D

One thing to consider when using the Barnes X bullets is Barnes recommends seating them a little further off the lands than conventional bullets with a lead core. Recommendations are to start around 0.050" off the lands. Also, the Barnes X, since it is a solid bullet, is longer for weight than conventional bullets, so even the 225 grain seated .050" off the lands and it being long, you may intrude into your powder capacity as much as the 250 grain Nosler. They are great bullets, there's no doubt about that. Some rifles like them, some don't. They copper foul barrels worse than conventional bullets also, so if you have a barrel that suffers copper fouling, the X may not be for you. My Ruger barrel is one such. It's accurate, but fouls terribly, even worse so with the X. Some have noted higher pressures when using the X bullets, but I wonder if that is because they don't back them off the lands enough or not.

There's the North Fork line, they offer a 225 and 240 grain .338" bullet. I've just received a couple boxes to start working on loads this spring. I'll let you know how the Ruger No.1 likes them. Reports have been outstanding on performance. The 230 grain FailSafe is another exceptional bullet. I've never recovered one from game animals. I can't say that they out penetrate any other bullet, but I've never recovered one. I haven't found a super accurate load with it, but accurate enough for my hunting style and circumstances.
Try the Barnes tripple shocks as they donot foul the way the original X's do, and give tremendous penatration
 
#63 ·
Bluesman said:
Alyeska 338-
I also wanted to point out something that seems to be overlooked. I wrote an article about the SAKO .375 H&H carbine - yes, I said carbine, for the 1994 Gun Digest. It is light, fast, as accurate as I can shoot and recoil is not even noticed when hunting.

TheSAKO carbines are hard to find, but if I run into another one for sale I will grab it just to make sure that I have a back-up. As much as I like the .338 the .375 carbine has much to appreciate in a light, handy package.

Bluesman
Bluesman,
Several years ago, my company purchased two rifles for us to use while working in the field. One was a Sako carbine, mannlicher stocked. The other was a push feed Winchester M70, both in 375 H&H. The Sako was indeed handy, but ours wasn't as light as I had expected it to be. While not heavy, I think it still went about 8.5lbs with the 20" barrel and mannlicher stock. The Sako was sold by the company to an ex-employee who offered collector's amount for it. Since I had always carried my own personal firearm (you know that familiarity thing) I didn't see any problem with letting it go. The Winchester is still used by our cultural dept when doing archeological investigations along the remote coast.

By the way, I was considering a singleshot wildcat using the x74R case, necking it down to 7mm. Still haven't decided on that yet or not.

I'll look for your article. Many thanks.
 
#64 · (Edited)
jwp,
I've shot some Superior Ammunition loads that were developed for my 500 Jeffery. Not your average factory loads for sure. I'd say more like a custom ammunition company than factory. High quality components loaded with meticulous detail.

Since trying some of the North Fork bullets, I think I've found the bullet for my 338. I cannot find fault with Barnes bullets, but the North Forks are not as sensitive in seating depth and seem to shoot better out my 338 than the X. I haven't tried the Triple Shok's, but will stay with the North Fork for now I believe.
 
#65 ·
I guess by this time you are up here, well there, being as I am in Anchorage. Hopefully the move wasn't too rough. Been there and done that twice now. How is the Savage working out?

I don't have a 338, nor do I pretend to like on on television, rather preferring a .375 H&H mag. Even then, in the alders (you have seen the alder thickets now haven't you?) I still feel a little under gunned loaded with 300 grain bullets. That being said, I really like the Swift A Frame and the Nosler Partition bullets for Mr. Bear in heavy for caliber loads. I don't care if he is Black, Brown, Grizzly, I just want him to lay down right now, so I load heavy at moderate velocities.

Good luck up there in the interior. It looks like it has been rather cold lately. :) brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr---- -47 without windchill last week. Here it was a balmy -10.

Breakup is coming Yahooo!
 
#66 ·
MMichaelAK said:
I guess by this time you are up here, well there, being as I am in Anchorage. Hopefully the move wasn't too rough. Been there and done that twice now. How is the Savage working out?

I don't have a 338, nor do I pretend to like on on television, rather preferring a .375 H&H mag. Even then, in the alders (you have seen the alder thickets now haven't you?) I still feel a little under gunned loaded with 300 grain bullets. That being said, I really like the Swift A Frame and the Nosler Partition bullets for Mr. Bear in heavy for caliber loads. I don't care if he is Black, Brown, Grizzly, I just want him to lay down right now, so I load heavy at moderate velocities.

Good luck up there in the interior. It looks like it has been rather cold lately. :) brrrrrrrrrrrrrrr---- -47 without windchill last week. Here it was a balmy -10.

Breakup is coming Yahooo!
We have been here since 19August and have been loving every minute that we can get out and play (unfortunately that is not often enough). After living in Maine for 6 years, I have to say that I like the weather here better; the tempurature is much more stable here, and it is much drier as well. By the way it dipped below -50 in North Pole (good weather for all the indoor projects that get neglected the rest of the year).
I did not get to do much more than scout for moose a little in September, and go up the Haul Rd for bou in October (my buddy got a nice bull with his bow about 1 3/4 mile off the road. I only had a rifle and all the animals were near the road, so I didn't even bother walking the 5 miles (we only had 2 days).
As for the Savage; it shoots great. I have it sighted in for 200 yds, and it shot a 3/4" group (3 rounds) at that distance. No complaints so far, but this year I will be putting it and a lot of other gear to the test. I am planning a remote moose hunt for September and will be doing a lot of scouting in that area between now and then.
 
#67 ·
alyeska338 said:
I don't get this statement Rick. What I have found shooting the 338 Win Mag, for most long range hunting, bullets in the 225-230 grain weights are ideal for that work. The 250's just can't match them. Anything over 250 and drop becomes more pronounced. The 225-230 grain weights, when loaded near the top seem to be a little flatter than the 200 or 210 grain loads. I do have some 215 grain Sierra's, but haven't tried them yet.
Some of the 250 grainers are not bad at all. For example, most of the factory loads around 2,660 fps with 250-grain NOS bullets and the .338 sighted +2" at 100 yards drop to maybe -9.5" at 300 yards. Then Federal 250-grain HE is loaded at nearly 2800 fps, and don't drop as much at the same distance.

My moose last year dropped to one of the Federal 250-grain HE. It was a broadside shot through the lungs, at 325 yards. Also, Woodleigh makes a 300-grain .338 bullet, and Swift makes a 275 grainer. I keep a few rounds with 275-grain A-frame while moose hunting. I load those to just over 2600 fps, and the 250 grainers to about 2670 fps. I have only shot one moose with the 250-grain Swift, two with 250-grain NOS, and the rest with 230-grain Lubalox-coated FS. I have shot moose as close as 100 yards with the FS, but most around 250 to 275 yards.

(I haven't been around for awhile, so I thought it was time to come back)
 
#68 ·
Welcome back, Ray. As you mentioned the 250 grain NP's or other 250 grain bullet will be great at the 300+ yard mark. Guess when I was thinking of long range, I was thinking of 400+ . I haven't been able to work up a load with the 250's in a 338 Win Mag that gives the same trajectory as a 225-230 grain load for those distances. I will say though, it seems the 338 is really at home with those 250 grain NP's. However, when I carry the 338 out for sheep, I opt for the flatter shooting loads in 225 grain bullets. The 230 grain FS's I have killed game with have yet to be recovered. Heck of a bullet if you can get them to shoot in your rifle.
 
#69 ·
I've used the 250 Sierra boattail over 67.5 gr of IMR 4350 in the 338 Win mag with good success - good BC. I know it's not a "stout" bullet compared to others, but with 250 grains and not super velocity, I don't really think you need that stout of a bullet for the likes of moose and elk.

I papered this load many years back and I was sighted 2.5" high at 100, it was just high (less than an inch) at 200, approx 3" low at 300, and 18.5" low at 400. That may not agree with a ballistics program, but that's what it was doing for me out of a 26" barrel Browning A-bolt. Got a nice 5-point bull elk with this in October last year.

A friend used a Rem 8 mag with 200 gr Swift A-frame a few years back on a cow elk, at just under 400 yards. Punched it through the ribs. It hardly opened up and barely left a blood trail and went about 80 yards before piling up. Good bullet, along with the partition, FS, and many others, but they can be "overstout" if simply shooting thru the boiler house.
 
#70 ·
Well, I guess I should have read the entire thread before posting.....if big bears are on the menu, whether intentional or not, I would certainly opt for the stout bullets. Disclaimer: I've never shot a big bear. But I would think, and have read many times, that the 338 Win mag is sufficient for the beasts, and with a 250 or heavier bullet, out-penetrates the 375 H&H with 300 grain bullets of similar construction.

Phil Shoemaker has written several good articles along these lines in recent magazines.
 
#71 ·
alyeska338 said:
Welcome back, Ray. As you mentioned the 250 grain NP's or other 250 grain bullet will be great at the 300+ yard mark. Guess when I was thinking of long range, I was thinking of 400+ . I haven't been able to work up a load with the 250's in a 338 Win Mag that gives the same trajectory as a 225-230 grain load for those distances. I will say though, it seems the 338 is really at home with those 250 grain NP's. However, when I carry the 338 out for sheep, I opt for the flatter shooting loads in 225 grain bullets. The 230 grain FS's I have killed game with have yet to be recovered. Heck of a bullet if you can get them to shoot in your rifle.
If you check out the long rnge hunting sites they all prefer the heavy bullets because they provide a higher bc and retain velocity better @ extended ranges if you are talking only 3to400 hundred yards then this is not a problem 225 grain bullets such as the barnes TSX's have fair bc'c due to there length but aren't as good as they should be as they have a rather fat ogivel usaully the 250 grain and up have better bc's I killed my Dall Sheep with 250grain NP's @ approx 300 yards [before laser range finders]
 
#72 ·
Most of the guys on the long range sites are shooting larger capacity cartridges than the Win Mag case, though. From what I've seen, the Lazzeroni, Lapua, and RUM cases are favorites. Maybe it's just my rifles, or maybe I don't stretch it more 600 yards, but I can't get the similar trajectories with the 250's at those ranges. Mind you, I don't shoot at game at 600 yards...

I've noticed the long range guys really prefer the 300 grain SMK for most of their shooting in the 338's.
 
#73 ·
That is true about the SMK's but Acubonds are gaining ground many do use large case's but some use 338 win I hav enot shot any game as yet at past 400 yards but I am currently Practicing out to 800+ with quite spectactular results the guy's that shooting past 2000yards are definately useing large capacity case's and 300 and 350 grain bullets a favorite in case is Wildcat bullets and these are high bc HUNTING BULLETS I have had great success with the nightforce ballistics program once you find the true bc of your bullets the night force ballistics program will take into account altitude, humidity,dew,tempature,due point and just about any variable you can think of incude multiple bc, as ti changes as the speed changes,one reason the sierra's are popular is that sierra give, different bc's @ different velocitys for the same bullet I am not a fan of these bullets close shots as I have seen them give less than adaquate penetration under those conditions I am conrectly as you know trying the 225 TSX but have discovered that its bc is much lower that advertised But the bc on the 180 30 cal TSX has been wonderflly accurate I have talked to Barnes about this and they are currently working to establish more accurate bc's
 
#74 ·
I agree about the SMK, not being a hunting bullet. I shoot a lot of 250's in my 338, but when it comes to sheep hunting I switch to the 225 and 230's. At the 400 yard mark, the 250's just don't have the trajectory that the 225's and 230 do. Maybe I haven't worked up the right load for the 250, but I am very satisfied with the 225 class bullet for that purpose.
 
#75 ·
I agre for 400 yards and under it is only when you get longer does the higher bc's come into play I have never shot any game with a 338 win with any bullet other than the 250 NP's I am now experimenting with the TSX 225 grain and love it to about 600 yards after that it falls of faster than the ballistics programs indicate meaning the bc is wrong I hope to take some game with this bullet as soon as possiable they shoot into very small groups when accurauy testing I am not saying that bigger is always best because I expect these to out pentrate the NP's and will definately shoot flatter out to 5 or 600 yards
 
#76 · (Edited)
I just want to add something about the trajectories between the 225 and the 250 grainers, but don't want you to think that I am trying to argue with you. This is just something to think about:

Of two similarly constructed bullets, lets say...225-Grain Partition and 250-grain Partition, believe it or not, the heavier one maintains its trajectory a little longer than one would expect. One would expect that the heavier one would drop sooner, but in reality it's not so.

Take a look at the following examples, out to 500 yards:

225-grain SP (Partition, or similar soft point), loaded to produce 2780 fps at the muzzle, and sighted to +2" at 100 yards.

100 yards = +2"
200 yards = 0"
300 yards = -8"
400 yards = -23.4"
500 yards = -47.4"

Similar bullet, but in 250 grains, sighted +2" at 100 yards, to produce 2660 fps at the muzzle:

100 yards = +2"
200 yards = 0"
300 yards = -8.9"
400 yards = -25.4"
500 yards = -50.9"

A difference of 3" at 500 yards is not bad at all, considering that the heavier one has only slowed approximately 100 fps more than the lighter one at that distance. For some reason the lighter one sheds velocity sooner than the heavier one at long distance.

A Federal 250-grain NOS-HE (2800 fps) drops to -44.9 at 500 yards, so if you load the same bullet to produce 2700 fps at the muzzle, it should drop from 1-1/2" to 2" at the same distance.

You can push a 225 grainer 100-200 fps faster, but still, the difference will be no more than 3" at 500 yards, and the velocity around 100 fps from the heavier one at the same distance.

Now, some of the longer and aerodynamic hunting bullets will shoot flatter, since these are of a different design. They are usually lighter in weight, too, from 210 to 225 grains. The 225-grain Scirocco comes to mind, as well as some of the Nosler 225 grainers with plastic tips.

A 225-grain Nosler Partition may shoot around 3" flatter than the same bullet in 250 grains at 500 yards, which may translate to around 5" difference at 600.
 
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