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  #1  
Old 04-07-2011, 02:55 PM
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SAAMI and CIP Standards and Drawings for Reference


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These drawings contain cartridge, chamber and, below the pressure testing information, test barrel drawings. They date from the early '90's, so some newer cartridges are missing. I understand SAAMI will be issuing updated docs over the next few years, and those will no-doubt add cartridges and update pressure test information and specifications for those cartridges that have had MAP spec in psi added to their MAP spec in cup.

SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute, Inc.) Note that the web site is only set up for Internet Explorer to operate the links in the PDF page of chamberings.

Rimfire
Pistol and Revolver
Rifle
Shotshell

Later: SAAMI now has Piezo transducer charts for some later cartridges included in among the previously established Piezo transducer standards:

Pistol and Revolver
Centerfire Rifle


CIP (Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives)

CIP Homologation Tables.

Homologation is reaching an agreement, so these are the agreed upon standards used by the CIP.

The index at the top of the page changes the category of cartridge type. The tables for each categor run a number of pages (change at the bottom). The Pt max column is the equivalent of SAAMI's MAP (Maximum Average Pressure), the number shown as limits in load manuals, except here it is in bars. If you want to see a CIP drawing, click on EN under the TDCC column to get it in English. If you want test and proof barrel dimensions that reference symbols in those drawings, click on EN in the Annexe column. All the column names have a key under the tables that you can see when you scroll down.

CIP pressures are given in bars. A bar is 100,000 Pascals or 0.1 Megapascals (MPa), which is 0.987 standard atmospheres, or 14.504 psi. So, multiply bars by that number to convert to psi.
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Last edited by unclenick; 12-15-2015 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Updates.
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:18 PM
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Thank you for for the valuable information!
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:08 PM
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CIP Drawings and information.

The CIP has a handy set of pages and tables for the cartridges they cover.

CIP - Homologation (Homologation is agreement on a standard for the cartridge in question.)

In the page, select the cartridge category tab you want at the top. A table will appear below listing cartridges. Go through the pages at the bottom until you find the cartridge you want. The table lists the original CIP standard adoption date, the most recent revision date, the country of origin, the decisions, texts, and tables (TDDC) languages available, the proof chamber and barrel tolerances appendices (annexe), the number of millimeters forward of the breech end of the case that the pressure sampling port is located, the peak pressure (in bars; multiply by 14.50377 to get psi), the maximum single round peak pressure variation allowed above that average, and the maximum load kinetic energy, all in that order (a key to the initials are at the bottom of the page).

To see a cartridge drawing, under the TDCC, put your cursor over language of choice (EN for English) and click, and the cartridge drawing comes up. Do the same under Annexe to see the proof barrel chamber tolerances (referring to the chamber in the lower half of the drawing under TDCC).
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Last edited by unclenick; 05-17-2014 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 01-10-2017, 05:41 PM
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Missing cartridge?

Used to see the 357 Maximum in the SAAMI drawings. Now I can't find it. Why would they drop it? Even if you argue that it's obsolete it costs them nothing to leave it on the list.
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Old 01-10-2017, 11:29 PM
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The questions about why and what SAAMI decides on are legendary, as are the hows. The problem arises because SAAMI has no international or even USA authoritative standing because it is owned by the US firearms industry as a collective advisory consortium. The agency, to put it kindly, is "lobby-able" to the extreme and their agenda is not transparent. I wonder if there is any firearms or ammunition or propellant manufacturer outside the USA which pays any attention to SAAMI figures. SAAMI figures can never be mentioned in the same breath as CIP or any other standards authority - that will afford SAAMI an unwarranted standing which it does not enjoy.

The South African Bureau of Standards (SABC) collaborates with CIP and in fact does actual metallurgical testing and design strength test firings and post firing measurement and analyses in collaboration with arms and propellant manufacturers before issuing a production quality approval. That is just the way it is done in a "third world nation".
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-11-2017 at 10:15 AM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 11:34 AM
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SAAMI & 357 Maximum

MusgraveMan,

Hard for me to argue. I once called SAAMI with questions about the 30 Luger cartridge. The result bore a distinct resemblance to seeing a deer in my headlights at night.

The 445 SuperMag went briefly full commercial (Winchester loaded it.) but so far as I know never appeared on the SAAMI site.

If any body preserved the SAAMI 357 Maximum page I'd appreciate a copy.
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Old 01-11-2017, 12:40 PM
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USP, you probably saw that Wikipedia states that the SAAMI pressure maximum is 48,000 psi, recalculated from their CUP measurement - probably using the Bramwell approximation formula as there is no linear translation possible.

This is SAAMIs main page where they incorrectly state that C.I.P. is the "European counterpart of SAAMI - while everybody and his dog knows that SAAMI's formal status is merely "consultative".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sporti...s%27_Institute
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-11-2017 at 12:44 PM.
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  #8  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:58 PM
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SAAMI is an ANSI standards organization. They set standards agreed upon by industry members. It is a voluntary standard for manufacturing guns and ammunition so that ammunition is compatible among different makes and models of guns. In the old days, every maker had his own version of ".44 caliber" or "22 caliber" or whatever, and custom guns often were sold with their own bullet molds correctly sized for the individual gun. So the SAAMI standard saves us a lot of grief and makes mass-manufacturing possible which makes components less expensive. It is also beneficial to shooters that it is a voluntary standard because that enables an individual company to decide to make and sell things that go outside the standard (though, for liability reasons, it is important that they say when they have done so). For example, Garrett .45-70 ammunition made for the Marlin 1895 or similarly strong or stronger actions only; it's pressures exceed the SAAMI standard for .45-70. At the opposite end, Remington Youth Loads for high power rifle are below the SAAMI standard for velocity of their bullet weights. Both are nice products to have available when they fit what you want to do.

The CIP is a regulatory organization with legal enforcement powers and can demand and enforce compliance with its standards. It is not voluntary. It can and has, for example, required every gun be sent to a proof house for proofing before it can be sold, where manufacturers here voluntarily proof design exemplars, but not every individual gun made. Their ammunition maximum average pressures and cartridge dimensions match ours as measured in their unit system and with their style of equipment, though, as discussed below, their equipment doesn't match our reading magnitudes due to its differences, even when used with the same reference ammunition.


Unspellable,

I believe you are simply seeing part of an in-process web site change. Originally SAAMI had a list of cartridges created in Word with embedded links to the individual drawings. The problem with it was the links only be worked in Internet Explorer. It didn't work in any other browser and when Windows 10 came out, it didn't work with the new Microsoft Edge browser, either. So they finally seem to have decided to let it go. Now when you click on Cartridge and Chamber drawings the link has you download the whole 2015 Standard in PDF form for each category you select, which has all the cartridges in it. If you do that and in Acrobat click on the page count near the top left and put in Page 53 it will take you to the document page 44 (the discrepancy is that Acrobat counts the index pages while the document saves Page 1 for after the indices) where you'll find the same 0.357 drawing you are used to finding.

It's too bad to see the individually available drawings go, but the web site working in all different browsers is good.

The conversion formula from Bramwell assumes the published maximums relate well to relative crusher and conformal transducer measurements. And he did find a definite though not impressively tight correlation between them. But when you look at individual cartridges you spot a tendency of the conformal transducer to get disproportionately lower readings when the pressure is lower or when the case wall radius is smaller.

I've seen an Australian study that didn't show that difference when comparing their 7.62 and 5.56 readings on their conformal transducer and European style channel transducers, and I can't account for why ours read lower than theirs, but they apparently do. I had a conversation about this with former SAAMI technical director Ken Green about ten years ago and he assured me they use the same reference cartridges to calibrate both systems, so no change to the .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum standards have been made, as claimed by people looking at the raw numbers but not understanding the two pressure systems don't track.


Examples:

Two cartridges that had the same copper crusher pressures originally to show the small radius bias:

.308 Win
52,000 CUP original standard
62,000 psi, a +19% magnitude with same reference cartridge lot for calibration

Smaller case wall radius:
.223 Rem
52,000 CUP original standard
55,000 psi, a +6% magnitude with same reference cartridge lot for calibration


Two cartridges, one smaller diameter but with higher copper crusher pressure rating originally, and one wider diameter but with lower copper crusher pressure rating originally, to show smaller radius and lower pressure bias, both at the same time:

.357 Mag
45,000 CUP original standard
35,000 psi, -22% magnitude with same reference cartridge lot for calibration

.44 Mag
40,000 CUP original standard
36,000 psi, -10% magnitude with same reference cartridge lot for calibration


Part of the problem seems likely to be that copper crushers measure the gas pressure directly through a hole either drilled in the case or made by allowing the case wall to blow out through so the piston is ultimately exposed to directly to gases. The same is true for CIP copper crushers and CIP channel transducers which have a very tight and consistent relative pressure reading with the same reference cartridges. In fact the conversion in their system is so consistent that Denton Bramwell thought their values were calculated rather than tested, until Hartmut Broemel corrected him on that point. The conformal transducer used here has a connecting rod machined to conform to the chamber and that does not move enough during a test to do more than leave a small ring mark on the case, so it is measuring pressure over top of the brass rather than measuring gas pressure directly. This is very convenient, but apparently not consistent. No attempt to compensate for that is part of the SAAMI standard. I think they feel that since a chamber doesn't get exposed to gas directly, this is an intrinsically more realistic measure of what the gun experiences.
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Last edited by unclenick; 01-11-2017 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:30 PM
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Unclenick,
Re: your Post (#8) in this thread)
Do you think the SAAMI Conformal Type Measurements are Also Affected by the Local Case Wall Thickness and Hardness affect the Values measured?
Best Regards,
Chev. William
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:29 AM
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Yes. I think that's why SAAMI has the transducer sample a position just below the case shoulder (0.175" and 0.15" below shoulder for large and small transducers, respectively), where the brass is still close to the same thickness as the neck, whereas copper crusher ports are further back, closer to the middle of the case wall. The CIP locates its transducer ports closer to the middle of the case wall, too.

The European NATO channel transducers usually sample gas at the chamber throat, just in front of the case mouth and get the same result the CIP does, though the calibration has some trickier issues, like filtering 200 kHz resonances that tend to occur with that setup. But it gets them out of having any case holes at all, making it easier to use.
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Old 01-12-2017, 03:06 PM
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357 Maximum

Page 44 is 357 Magnum. Still no 357 Maximum.
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Old 01-12-2017, 04:27 PM
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Unspellable, did you need something from the standard for the 357 Rem Max, or just lamenting its current absence?
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Old 01-12-2017, 07:26 PM
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Sorry. My fault. I misread "Magnum" and noticed it can't be accessed any longer, so I thought that was it. All the individual drawings have come down.

Look at the CIP drawings. Divide dimensions by 25.4 to convert to inches.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:11 AM
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A definitive answer

I called SAAMI and spoke to Randy Bimson (current technical director). He says the reason the .357 Maximum is gone is that as of November 27, 2005 is was declared an inactive design. This means the industry is no longer supporting it by providing reference and proof loads and action proving dummies and technical information. Apparently it never gained great popularity.

Randy says the SAAMI drawings are in their archives. He is preparing for the annual pre-SHOT show technical committee meetings at the show venue that he has to fly out for this afternoon, and says it will be several weeks before he will get out from under the aftermath of that and get time to dig out a copy of the drawing for me. I did not get time to ask if he would be OK with me posting it on the forum. If he is, I will put it up here. If not, I will PM Unspellable with a copy when I have it, but that may not be until sometime in February.

Randy said some form of the list of individual drawing links may come back at the web site, but that for now you have to download the whole standard to get the active drawings.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:11 AM
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357 Maximum

I am trying to get the drawings, specs, etc., for the 357 Maximum cartridge and chamber
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:36 PM
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Right! That's what I'm trying to get for you. It just can't be done right away because of the SHOT Show. The reason the drawing vanished in this case is that the .357 Maximum is no longer supported as a commercial cartridge. You have to keep in mind that SAAMI is a manufacturer's association and not a handloader's association so they only maintain what manufacturer's currently need. That's why obsolete cartridges disappear from the standard. You can't find a 303 Savage there, either, but it will be somewhere in their archives of obsolete chamberings.

I can tell, from QuickLOAD's database, that the conformal transducer Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) for it was 40,000 psi, and that the CIP channel transducer pressure MAP is 3,100 bar (310 MPa or 44,962 psi). Dimensions will have to wait until Randy has time to go through the archives and copy me on it. If you can't wait, use the CIP numbers. Figure the diameters will be those values as maximums and minus 0.003" for bullet diameter and minus 0.006" for other diameters. The trim-to length will be minus 0.010" (in the middle of the -0.020" limit) same as for .357 Magnum.
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Old 01-13-2017, 01:39 PM
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357 Maximum

Not in panic mode, but I'd like the complete drawings sooner or later.

Thanks
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Old 01-13-2017, 06:02 PM
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I have the 1993 copy of ANSI Z299.3 here, for centerfire pistol & revolver cartridges. Do either of you want a copy? The PM system works fine on the board here. I don't have a good place I can post them publicly.
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Old 01-13-2017, 06:19 PM
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357 Rem Max pressure limits in CUP were:

MAP 48,000 CUP,
MPLM 49,500 CUP, and
MPSM 50,100 CUP.

In PSI (piezo transducer) the limits were:

MAP 40,000 PSI,
MPLM 41,300 PSI, and
MPSM 43,200 PSI.

Case length (base to mouth) was 1.605" +0/-.020"
COAL was 1.940" min to 1.990" max
Case body was cylindrical, diameter measured .200" forward from the base: .379" +0/-.006"
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Old 01-14-2017, 11:54 AM
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Well, duh! Colossal brain gas on my part. I've had it and referred to it for years, but didn't even look in there.
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