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  #1  
Old 01-15-2017, 02:38 PM
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European data book authors just seem to better respect the shooter's technical interests than our domestic ones do. Sure, this manual includes the usual information about it's company's history and the pages are mostly load tables for different cartridges, same as ours are. But where domestic manuals often give me the sense that, like gun magazines, they are recycling old subject matter geared toward beginners, just with new authors, the Norma manual gives me information I haven't encountered elsewhere.

One interesting section is on powder moisture content and its relationship with the RH of the air it is stored in and the effect that has on burn rates. Did you know the powder inside a loaded cartridge without sealant will equilibrate with the moisture in the air surrounding it over a period of about a year? Did you know that among rifle powders a bone dry one (desiccated) can produce 12% higher peak pressure and 5% higher velocity, grain-for-grain, than one kept in 85% R.H.?

Most of the this book was clearly not written by native English speakers, but the information is no less excellent. I didn't realize Norma was the OEM supplier for Weatherby's branded ammunition and always has been, nor that they were the OEM suppliers for other smaller brands I recognize. I didn't know they've made brass not only for European cartridge companies, but for Federal and Remington at times. Anyone wondering why some cases from their favorite maker aren't exactly like others he produces, may have an "ah-ha! moment" upon learning this.

In addition, the manual goes into Norma's brass alloy composition and what trade-off they made in choosing it over straight 70:30 brass. They reveal the nominal energy content of their different powders, something kept proprietary by domestic makers. It's just a level of detail our domestic manual authors seem to think shooters won't care about, but that some of us like to know anyway.

I had a similar experience reading the last Vihtavuori manual I bought. Like Norma's it had equations for powder burn rate relationships. It had plots showing the effect on pressure curves of different grain geometries. Just more technical detail. And now that Berger has been bought by the Nammo Group (Vihtavuori's and Lapua's and SK's owner), I think it may behoove us to get more familiar with what the quality European makers are putting out, anyway. I think we may be seeing more of them.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:52 PM
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I like that. Extra information included in the manuals may be passed or skimmed over by most reloaders but, at some point, when we happen to be going through and then find that info that no one else is bothering to print, it's enlightening. I have no experience with Norma's manual. powders, or brass, but I can relate by using the Lee Modern Reloading manual. There is information in there that other manuals don't provide. Their discussion of bullet hardness, casting, "pressure", muzzleloaders, historical introduction to metallic cartridges and handloading, mathematical formulas relevant to reloading and ballistics, even the simple inclusion of useful case capacities for individual cartridges and showing CC volume equivalents for each charge of powder.

Maybe we don't always care about the "extra" information, but when the day comes that it piques our interest, we're glad it's there. I might have to take a look at Norma's manual.
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Old 01-15-2017, 03:34 PM
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Thats good to know Nick. One of my local suppliers has started carrying Norma powder but I really didn't have much interest. Might rethink that and acquire one of their reloading manuals.
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:31 PM
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I have Norma's #2 manual, which is the current one as of this writing. It has less load data than some manuals, though still a lot, but it is one of my most valued manuals precisely because of the technical data Nick refers to. Whereas General Dynamics, Hodgdon, and Alliant wouldn't give you the time of day as regards technical info about powders, even if you offered them cash money, Eurenco (Norma powder manufacturer) happily provides it in their loading manual!

I wish I'd bought the last hard-copy Vihtavuori manual. It appears they may have quit publishing them now...
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Old 02-03-2017, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by unclenick View Post

One interesting section is on powder moisture content and its relationship with the RH of the air it is stored in and the effect that has on burn rates. Did you know the powder inside a loaded cartridge without sealant will equilibrate with the moisture in the air surrounding it over a period of about a year? Did you know that among rifle powders a bone dry one (desiccated) can produce 12% higher peak pressure and 5% higher velocity, grain-for-grain, than one kept in 85% R.H.?
Yep, I've referenced that a few times in the past few months in a couple posts around.
Pretty sure MZ5 has seen that in his bloody sweat-hut he calls a tee-pee down in AZ

MZ5:

Interestingly, when I still had dirt cheap SMP-842 from a dealer in Ky, I could actually get a bit of info from GD; and of course if you can catch him, Emary. But since Hodgy "created" CFE223, that well has run dry.
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Old 02-03-2017, 09:11 PM
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Searching through some of the reloading sources of info I have squirreled away in my reloading room, I found some early Norma reload info I still have.
- The first is a sheet form of some Norma Ballistic Tables Loading Data.



- Second, a Norma Ballistics Table booklet.



- Third, The Norma Gunbug's Guide, the actual manual.



- On the cover of the manual, pictured are three cartridges that apparently are the result of an cooperative effort between Norma and Schultz & Larsen. And, being as I'm a Schultz & Larsen fan, I've acquired three of their rifles in those calibres. Top down
1/ A model 68DL in 7x61 S&H
2/ A model 65DL in 308 NM
3/ A model 68DL in 358 NM.

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Old 02-10-2017, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
One interesting section is on powder moisture content and its relationship with the RH of the air it is stored in and the effect that has on burn rates. Did you know the powder inside a loaded cartridge without sealant will equilibrate with the moisture in the air surrounding it over a period of about a year?
What confuses me on that is without outside pressure, how is the equilibrium of the moisture squeezing through between the bullet and neck of the cartridge? I remember contemplating using bullet sealer years ago and put some rounds in a bucket of water overnight and they fired fine and IIRC nothing noticeable in velocity difference. I remember considering it based on hunting in wet weather and seems if this is so, this would probably be a more important reason to seal. And how much will it affect the cartridge firing and performance?
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Old 02-10-2017, 10:27 AM
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1/ A model 68DL in 7x61 S&H
2/ A model 65DL in 308 NM
3/ A model 68DL in 358 NM.
Love the 358 Norma Mag!
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Old 02-10-2017, 05:18 PM
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Love the 358 Norma Mag!
In all honesty, until I decided to go for that three gun Schultz & Larsen group I wanted, I never really gave the calibre much thought. When I did advertise for a Schultz & Larsen, I was offered the opportunity to pick up a model 1651 Husqvarna in 358NM. After seeing photos of it, I weakened and picked it up. Too 'pretty' to turn down.





Now I have two.

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Old 02-11-2017, 04:36 AM
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Beautiful gun. I'm a big 35 caliber fan. Have you fired it much or shot anything with it?
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Old 02-11-2017, 06:29 AM
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What confuses me on that is without outside pressure, how is the equilibrium of the moisture squeezing through between the bullet and neck of the cartridge? I remember contemplating using bullet sealer years ago and put some rounds in a bucket of water overnight and they fired fine and IIRC nothing noticeable in velocity difference. I remember considering it based on hunting in wet weather and seems if this is so, this would probably be a more important reason to seal. And how much will it affect the cartridge firing and performance?
Water vapor (or steam; humidity) can get through much smaller spaces than liquid water. Just one reason is surface tension. How much humidity change affects cartridge performance, in terms of speed but also pressure, is addressed in the manual.
Another interesting consideration is how we mostly load powder by weight. As moisture content changes, so does powder weight, yet there has been no change in the mass of nitrocellulose or nitroglycerin.
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Old 02-11-2017, 08:13 AM
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Beautiful gun. I'm a big 35 caliber fan. Have you fired it much or shot anything with it?
I've punched a bit of paper with the Husqvarna but haven't done any reloading for it or used it in the field, yet. Not reloading for it was because after purchasing components, I lucked out and picked up seven boxes of factory ammo from the guy that sets up the gun shows locally. Not using it in the field, or actually doing any hunting for the last almost two years is because of a cataract issue. That issue was 'delt' with about a month and a half ago, so, back to hunting this season and with any luck at all, the Husqvarna will get the call for Moose in the B.C. central interior this fall. With the eye condition being as compromised as it was, I didn't think it wise to be doing any hunting. Sorry for babbling on.
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Old 02-11-2017, 01:59 PM
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What confuses me on that is without outside pressure, how is the equilibrium of the moisture squeezing through between the bullet and neck of the cartridge? I remember contemplating using bullet sealer years ago and put some rounds in a bucket of water overnight and they fired fine and IIRC nothing noticeable in velocity difference. I remember considering it based on hunting in wet weather and seems if this is so, this would probably be a more important reason to seal. And how much will it affect the cartridge firing and performance?
Whenever you have a difference in gas concentration across an imperfect barrier, the gases try to equilibrate their concentrations due to differences in potential energy states of the differing mixtures. With water vapor, if there is more capacity to dissolve water on one side of the barrier than on the other (drier air on one side than the other), that will gradually pull water vapor from the other side. Metals are not gas permeable to a practical degree, so microscopic channels between the bullet and case and between the primer and case due to surface imperfections will be the route over which the lower concentration side can pull moisture. Water molecules are really small; among the smallest and are about 2,000 times smaller than a wavelength of visible light, and 500 times smaller than the surface roughness of the best quality optical glass. So to have them find channels through bullet and case fit or between primer and case fit isn't much of a challenge. The equilibration takes as long as it does just because of the large number of water molecules it takes to make significant difference.

As I mention in my first post, there is something like a 12% difference in pressure produced by a grain of powder in a given case depending on whether the powder was stored in bone dry air or in 85% RH. It's not just the water, but there are solvents in the powder that get pulled out as it desiccates, too.
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Old 05-09-2017, 12:22 PM
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Per my last sentence in the OP, more overseas powders are coming in. Midsouth now has a brand called Shooter's World. These are actually all the Lovex powders listed in QuickLOAD. Click on the individual powders to see their descriptions, which include the Lovex numbers.
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Old 05-28-2017, 10:40 AM
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Wait.....

I knew that Norma loaded for Weatherby, and Unclenick didn't???

I'm writing that tidbit in the calendar...
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Old 05-28-2017, 11:05 AM
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Wait.....

I knew that Norma loaded for Weatherby, and Unclenick didn't???

I'm writing that tidbit in the calendar...
I'm gonna tattoo it on my leg!

Shooting factory ammo in a Weatherby chamber without free-bore can be an exercise in proof testing. Hard bolt lift is almost always explained by a shiny round circle of brass that flowed into the ejector hole.
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Old 05-28-2017, 11:37 AM
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Searching through some of the reloading sources of info I have squirreled away in my reloading room, I found some early Norma reload info I still have.
- The first is a sheet form of some Norma Ballistic Tables Loading Data.



- Second, a Norma Ballistics Table booklet.



- Third, The Norma Gunbug's Guide, the actual manual.



- On the cover of the manual, pictured are three cartridges that apparently are the result of an cooperative effort between Norma and Schultz & Larsen. And, being as I'm a Schultz & Larsen fan, I've acquired three of their rifles in those calibres. Top down
1/ A model 68DL in 7x61 S&H
2/ A model 65DL in 308 NM
3/ A model 68DL in 358 NM.


Those are very nice looking rifle's. Year's ago, when I was shooting a 7mm Rem mag and a 338 Win mag my favorite powder was N-205. I guess they had trouble reproducing it with the same quality's and quit producing it. I haven't seen the first can of Norma powder in a lot of years. I used some of their case's in th 7mm mag and they were nice case's but heavier than Rem, Win and Fed. And even back then, early 70's, their product's were hard to fine. Lived about 25mi south of Kalispell, Mont then.
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Old 06-18-2017, 10:47 AM
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Wait.....

I knew that Norma loaded for Weatherby, and Unclenick didn't???

I'm writing that tidbit in the calendar...
Yep! It's probably what I get for never having owned and shot anything chambered in the Weatherby rounds. I'm sure the information has been mentioned in different places, but every once in awhile there is something you just manage to miss seeing even if it's right in front of your face and even if it's there more than once.
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