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  #21  
Old 03-18-2017, 04:39 AM
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Just bumped into this.
Federal cyanide trap injures eastern Idaho boy, kills dog | Fox News
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  #22  
Old 03-18-2017, 10:28 AM
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This story is causing a fire-storm in Idaho today. The question is this: Did the kid walk past all the big warning signs on purpose or was he on a trail that didn't have them and if not why not.

I had a gov. trapper at my place several years ago after having a dog killed by an especially aggessive pack. I have other dogs and would not allow poison but allowed snares and leg holds during a week I was gone. Even with nothing but traps, he put signs on every place anybody could cross a fence or get close to the sets.

Trappers and sportsmen around here would like to see the gov. guys banned from the state. Why pay tax money to a guy to shoot 50 coyotes a day from an airplane and let them lay?
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  #23  
Old 03-19-2017, 07:51 AM
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Is federales involved in this incident. Does the state do any of this?
The whole concept is foreign to this flatlander.
Sheriff should have pictures and stuff in short order I would think.
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  #24  
Old 03-19-2017, 08:57 AM
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Idaho does NOT use poison, but do call trappers to take care of problem areas. This is a BLM deal 100% and should throw gas on the fire to keep the Federals OUT!

In 1995, USFW issued a picture of federal wardens turning "the first" wolves loose on Profile Summit just out of Yellowpine, ID. THAT picture was passed around Yellowpine THREE YEARS earlier. I saw it. The whole outfit is infested with college liberals looking for unicorns.
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  #25  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:15 AM
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Too bad about the dog. Hope the kid comes out OK (always hard losing a dog).
Seems like our new president is inclined to restrict spending on a lot of stuff. Perhaps some involved in this thing will get "pink slips"? Let the citizens and the state handle it.
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2017, 08:16 AM
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Can not throw the Feds off of federal land. It is theirs. They own it. They bought and paid for it. They, not the states, are sovereign on that land.
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2017, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
Can not throw the Feds off of federal land. It is theirs. They own it. They bought and paid for it. They, not the states, are sovereign on that land.
I'm assuming that your sense of humor is showing BAGTIC.


Just found some more about this.

USDA must rethink cyanide bombs that injured boy, killed pets, lawmaker says | Fox News
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2017, 09:30 AM
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Many people lose track of the "problem" that started the decades long string of un-intended consequences.
The west was crossed by farmers going to Oregon and California and settled by miners and the ranchers that fed them beef, mutton and wool. When wolves killed sheep, the sheep ranchers posted bounties and wiped them out. When the coyotes took over from the wolves the sheepmen couldn't afford to kill them all so they got bigger dogs and for the first time started carrying guns. When the government 'took over' the unsold land, the sheepmen kept the grazing rights but have to pay the rest of the citizens for the grass, same with cattlemen. Since the rancher has to pay for the grass on BLM land, why not keep your BLM coyotes off MY property (sheep). So, the government got in the varmint control business. BUT, sheep aren't profitible unless the government props up prices because New Zealand and Australia have a lock on the wool market.

SO the sheepmen pay the government for grass to eat for sheep that lose him money unless the government pays him more than the wool is worth and if a government coyote eats a private enterprise sheep the government to pay for it....so they spend millions on airplanes, pilots, shooters, trappers and poison baits.

"Eat a lamb for Lunch--
Ten million coyotes can't be wrong"

Local bumper sticker.
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Last edited by JBelk; 03-21-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2017, 10:11 AM
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Thanks. I needed that. Too far away.
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  #30  
Old 03-24-2017, 03:25 PM
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esperience count?

Since I started this web I would like to try to round off the edges a little since it appears many posts have never used nor seen the results of an M44 or something similar.

Note 1. The pictures of the Game Getter that killed the dog is not like any M44 that I have ever seen. It looks as big as half a pop can. Must be some improvement over my 1948 models. How does it fit into the mouth of a coyote??

Note 2. I think that I have a dozen new M44 s somewhere in my trap shed, never used them since I couldn't buy the cartridges.

Note 3, Every M44 Game Getter that I have ever seen or used was a piece of pipe (maybe conduit) about 7 inches long and a half inch in diameter. It just would let a 38 Special case slip inside. The threaded top held a mainspring and firing pin. The .38 primed case was placed into the top, held by the rim and screwed on. If you pulled on the top (about an inch long) the pin struck the primer and the "blast" came up through the opem end of the case.
simple.

Note 4. In 1945-1048 when I used/watched them, the cartridge was a primed 38/357 case with a small amount of cyanide powder in the bottom and then plugged with ?? The trapper with whom I worked took a 1X2 inch piece of burlap and tied it around the cartridge. The 7" tube was driven in to ground level, the loaded cartridge screwed on and some lure rubbed on the burlap. It looked very much like a scrap of deer hide. Any dog or coyote passing by would instinctly grasp it with teeth, pull up and the cyanice blasted into the back of mouth. The coyote usually was found within 10 or so feet.

Note 5. These shells were provided by the local gov't trapper to us running sheep but would be (or are) easy to make by any handloader. Just need primed 38 cases and some cyanide.

Note 6. The results. Please keep in mind with regard to posts about public esposure, where we ran our 3 bands of sheep in the Eagle Cap Wilderness we were beyond 18 miles from the nearest road. In the 4 summers that I workded there there was at MOST one other person come riding up the main trail. Usually the forest ranger checking on our range management practices. It was over 50 miles beyond us to the next home.

Because each band kept 3 well-trained sheep dogs, we would set the M44 at least 3 miles down ridge AFTER the herd had passed.

I checked the set each day. Often the dead coyote was lying nearby. In some cases the lure holder (top of cartridge) was eaten, chewed, pawd upon by a second or more coyote. BUT it had fired and could not harm it. Some post mentioned that the set "killed the other dog" THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE
unless they are somehow using the cyanide poison that was fired into/onto the coyotes mouth roof, back of throat. ??? The shell only fires once!!!!

Note 6. In the 4 summers I saw only dead coyotes. Never a bear, bobcat nor fox or ??? However if you ever use one of these I recomend covering the bait so the birds (magpie, bluejay, et al) do not see it. If available a dry cow pie is great and no passing coyote will miss the smell.

Finally Note 7. Injury to kids, et al. I once saw our camp tender get careless when he screwed the loaded bait onto the pipe and it fired into his hand. It made a painfull blister almost an inch across on his hand where the fire from the 38 hit it. He jumped back to avoid any exposure to the powder. Need I mention that he wore gloves next time!!!

Now I repeat, the fire and power here is from a single .38 Special primer ONLY. Other than a direct upward pull the gun is unlikely to fire.Maybe. I am not sure about that. I am totally ignorant as to the danger from the cyanide powder if it was not in the mouth of a coyote. I stand listening and eager to learn from those of you who see perils here that I have missed. Jack in Oregon
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  #31  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:04 PM
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The M-44 used here, according to a local guy that says he knows, is the same size, shape and operation as a smoke grenade but more pop. It throws cyanide powder and an orange dye several feet in all directions. He says he's seen three dead coyotes in a ring around the bait rigged with one.
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  #32  
Old 03-24-2017, 04:36 PM
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Guess things have changed in the last 70 years (smile!). The getters I have are half inch conduit, one end pinched shut for driving, other threaded. I used a half inch bolt to drive pilot hole then drive the getter to ground level and so only thing above ground is baited cartridge, lured. Easily covered with cow pie. Seems harmless to anything not actually touching it, except for the poison powder. I have never purchased factory shells and am too lazy or uninterested to make my own. It all seems now to be too much bother although I do set quite a few traps for coyote each winter and catch an occassional bobcat in one. And a pine marten sometimes.


The wild turkeys are back now that most of the snow has gone off. Wife feeds birds and squirrels on the deck railing and some falls off so yesterday tere were 13 turkeys under my deck. Seemed most were toms. Guess the hens are all looking for a dry nesting place.
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  #33  
Old 03-25-2017, 11:01 AM
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Be patient, I'm about done! I know this is a thread Re. cartridges, let me ask about the coyote-getter guns.

Is it illegal to just posses those?? I bought them about 25 years ago and assume they are still hiding somewhere in the debri of my trapping shed shelves. Have laws changed since then???

Are the guns themselves something that I could sell?? Collectors?? Gov't trappers?? We have a gov't trapper who drives up passed my hunting camp occassionally, his dog running along loose with a big collar on, an antenna sticking up from the dogs's collar. I should ask him if he buys or is provided them. anybody want one. Several? What are they worth?? (my old, old friend, cowboy, used to say " A hoss is worth what it'll fetch".

A person could easily make your own shells but obviously from these posts it is simply not worth the hassle, danger, liability and efffort. I catch all of the coyotes I want with my #3 traps although let there be NO Dought these getters are a really, really effective way to kill coyotes. Lots of them.

Jack in Oregon
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  #34  
Old 03-26-2017, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAGTIC View Post
Can not throw the Feds off of federal land. It is theirs. They own it. They bought and paid for it. They, not the states, are sovereign on that land.
The last time I looked at the US Constitution, it started "We The People". The Feds work for us, not the other way around. We still have the power, not them. Don't like what "they" are doing...Fire them. Get up and do something about what "they" are doing.

Since when does the "employee" tell the bosses how it is ?????
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  #35  
Old 04-05-2017, 08:46 AM
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Conflicting information here. "Unmarked" and "always marked" and "with permission".
Cyanide 'bomb' victim's family files petition to stop its use | Fox News
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  #36  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:02 AM
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Conflicting information is right. e.g. Bagtic you mention "set & forget". People just do not understand exactly what these are. Why would you forget it?? You buy and set these and when done you dig them up and use them over and over. I checked every day, took the dead coyote for its hide or scalp and RESET. The only power is the primer in the .38 Special case. If I were reloading my own I would use about 1/8 of a teaspoon of cyanide. Also if the cyanide is not blown into the back of the coyote throat, how does it kill?
I mentioned one day we had a dead coyote about 10 feet away but tracks showed where two more had pawed, chewed, bit on the top of the getter. It can only shoot once unless you replace the fired primer. If it killed the boys dog then what injured the boy?? I think people are talking about something vastly different than the standard M44 game getter, after all the primed .38special case is hardly a "bomb".
"
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  #37  
Old 04-05-2017, 10:44 AM
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I'll stop polluting your thread OG32. I for certain understand the difference between what you showed in your OP and what my links are showing. This thread was the first I heard of the dammed things.

Thanks for posting here, and please pardon me.

Cheezywan
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  #38  
Old 04-05-2017, 11:05 AM
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Old Guide32-
Somebody REALLY lazy set at least two 'scatter grenade-M44' in a public area without warning signs of any kind. The same thing happened in Wyoming that killed two dogs last year and the same people are said to be involved. (It is rumored, the Gov. has their own version of 'shoot, shovel and shut-up' when it comes to dogs near 'sensitive areas'). There are lawyers involved so we'll hear something under oath one of these days.

It is my understanding (that is faulty at times), ALL of the set guns, flare guns, poison pens, and any other 'irregular' gun or cartridge is now controlled by the BATF as 'other weapons'. There is an exception for 'scare poppers' used by orchard men in shotguns to run off birds.

Since cyanide is a carbon-based 'grenade' to just about every thing that breaths and probably rated as a hazardous material, a very deep post hole in a dry area seems a good idea. If you know a 'modern' gold miner that works a heap-leach operation, you could ask about 'killing' the cyanide. I know the mines use chlorine but I don't know how, how much or what happens, but it could be a way of burying them with something that will eventually kill them.
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  #39  
Old 04-06-2017, 09:37 AM
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Understand that if and when I find my old game-getters, there are no cartridges and therefore no cyanide. I have not had any carridges for over 40 years and am too lazy to make my own. The "guns" are half-inch conduit pipe closed at bottom end and threaded at top. The top 2 inches unscrews to accept the primed .38 Special case with a little poison in it and plugged. As is they are completely harmless and probably legal. I have over the years however thought about if someone (stupidly) were to insert an Actual .38 Special cartridge into the top, it would blow the H#ll out of things. And probably not even kill the coyote. If I uncover them some day I'll hang them on the shop wall as a "conversaton starter" for the next back yard weiney roast. Probaly do a replay of this entire thread!! Jack in Oregon
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