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  #81  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:21 PM
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RR schizophrenics live in their own reality, they can't determine what's real from what's not. You seem to want things both ways which is Utopia another unreality.
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  #82  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezywan View Post
Do you consider that monster "we"?

Cheezywan
No, we are not the "monster", we should be the controlling element.
Sooner, than later (hopefully) WE will need to recognize that all citizens of this country should not have access to firearms.
Jim
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  #83  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:25 PM
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This is a good thread. The longer I post on this site, the more I am learning about how those of you who are more pro gun than I am think. Very informative. Threads like this one are part of the reason why I joined this site. I'm pro-gun, but I'm also pro-keeping them out of the wrong hands.

This issue of people with mental health problems is one that is personal for me. I had an uncle with mental health issues who decided to buy a gun he ended up using to shoot the owner of a mobile home park because of a dispute over a trailer my uncle purchased. Mr Wright wanted the trailer moved, and my uncle refused. He shot Mr. Wright five times before the owner's son shot and killed my uncle with a 9mm in self defense. I was only 12 when this happened, and can still remember my parents talking with my grandfather about how much they tried to get the gun taken away from him after he bought it. They knew he had no business owning one, but couldn't do anything about it. Fortunately, Mr. Wright survived. But what my uncle did hurt a lot of people, including bringing much shame to my father's family. Grandpa was one those old school Latinos who greatly valued honor, dignity, and the family name. Dad was a deputy sheriff at the time, so it greatly affected him as well.
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  #84  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grizzer View Post
RR schizophrenics live in their own reality, they can't determine what's real from what's not. You seem to want things both ways which is Utopia another unreality.
As I mentioned in another post, I've worked in a mental health facility. Even with my limited training (Associate Degree in Human Services), I could easily determine who posed a threat and who didn't. All schizophrenics are not the same.
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  #85  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:51 PM
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Well I am one of those guys that think that a person that can't recognize fantasy from reality should not have a gun. I would bet some of the officials in Anchorage said the same thing about the Ft. Lauderdale shooter as they were giving his gun back, "He's not a danger to anyone".
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  #86  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:19 PM
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It's just not that simple

[QUOTE=MikeG;1460234]You have it backwards. Drugs gain FDA approval when the companies submit cherry-picked data that omits failures; when enough tens of thousands of people die from them, eventually the truth bubbles up to the surface (look up Vioxx).

But my point is - let ONE gun kill ONE person in the hands of ONE deranged/terrorist person - and it is the GUN'S fault. People don't kill people, guns do. And all the law-abiding gun owners must suffer further infringements on their rights, even if they weren't involved.

50,000 people die from a particular prescription medication? Oops, that was just an accident. No worries! Drugs don't kill people, accidents do. The company that made that mistake, though, will never suffer nor be held accountable, even if data was omitted/fabricated in the trials.


Because the FDA who is supposed to be our watch dog failed us! (intentionally?) Budget cuts, increasing workloads, corrupt big pharm, is it any wonder some drugs are missed, or at worst brought to market fast, to make $. (speculation on my part) Are there drugs that do harm to some/many of it's users? YES! Are their miracle drugs that save lives with very few incidence of an adverse reaction? Again YES! R&D takes years to develop & more to get approved. DO YOU PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH & TAKE NO meds ever? I'm about as anti big Pharm & the FDA as there are, but do we have a choice. Would we have been better off without the Polio vaccine, penicillin, lithium, chemo, etc.? The gun double standard is a whole other debate for another time. We have a **** load of double standards like reverse discrimination to name just one. We BOTH better chill before we each need a pill.
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  #87  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricochet Rico View Post
As I mentioned in another post, I've worked in a mental health facility. Even with my limited training (Associate Degree in Human Services), I could easily determine who posed a threat and who didn't. All schizophrenics are not the same.
I sincerely doubt you, or anyone, can predict with 100% certainty who will turn out to be a violent nutcase, and who will not. The more we learn about the human mind, it seems the less we really know.

All one has to do is look at the failures in the field to shudder at the thought.

If someone is enough of a violent nutcase to warrant locking them up - then lock them up, after being adjudicated as incompetent. There is a process.

And taking away someone's gun, or making it illegal to get one - that hardly ensures disarmament and/or lack of violence. Chicago, Mexico.... et al. Duh!

Oh and there are a number of reports of the airport shooter having converted to Islam. So if that is true then well, the whole thing gets a little more obvious.
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  #88  
Old 01-10-2017, 03:11 PM
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How do you wanna go?

Shot, blown up by an iud, run over by a truck, serin gas, yada yada???
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  #89  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nachogrande View Post
Shot, blown up by an iud, run over by a truck, serin gas, yada yada???
Right you are, Nacho. The crazies don't care. Whatever does the job. A subtle point lost on the gun-control crowd.
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  #90  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:49 PM
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Judicial Watch just broke a story on this Muslim Convert. He converted years ago, and when things got too tough, he headed down into the biggest Muslim enclave that he knew of. Not rocket science. The Obama admin. has tried to bury this story in a larger one about NYC being a possible target.
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  #91  
Old 01-10-2017, 09:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I sincerely doubt you, or anyone, can predict with 100% certainty who will turn out to be a violent nutcase, and who will not. The more we learn about the human mind, it seems the less we really know.

All one has to do is look at the failures in the field to shudder at the thought.

If someone is enough of a violent nutcase to warrant locking them up - then lock them up, after being adjudicated as incompetent. There is a process.

And taking away someone's gun, or making it illegal to get one - that hardly ensures disarmament and/or lack of violence. Chicago, Mexico.... et al. Duh!

Oh and there are a number of reports of the airport shooter having converted to Islam. So if that is true then well, the whole thing gets a little more obvious.
Nothing can provide 100% accuracy. That doesn't mean that we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing about people with mental health issues buying guns. We need to do everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them because of the danger they pose to civil society.
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  #92  
Old 01-10-2017, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Ricochet Rico View Post
Nothing can provide 100% accuracy. That doesn't mean that we stick our heads in the sand and do nothing about people with mental health issues buying guns. We need to do everything we can to keep guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them because of the danger they pose to civil society.
OK, so with your skills at predicting homicidal behavior, you can perhaps help identify islamic terrorists before they strike?
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  #93  
Old 01-10-2017, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK, so with your skills at predicting homicidal behavior, you can perhaps help identify islamic terrorists before they strike?
We're not talking about islamic terrorists. We're talking about people with mental illness. I know for a fact that by the time people with schizophrenia get the attention of mental health professionals, a history of violent or non-violent behavior already exists. The best predictor of future behavior is prior behavior. I've seen it firsthand time and time again. You can deflect all you want, but the fact remains that a loophole in current gun law exists when it comes to people with mental illness. It needs to be addressed, but I doubt that it will.
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  #94  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:02 AM
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Is a firearms forum, but in for this conversation it's important to keep anything dangerous away from the people you are discussing.
A person with mental illness driving a tractor/trailer through Chicago on the interstate during rush hour going the wrong way. Somebody flips him the byrd and it pushes him over the edge. He just happens to have derringer in his back pocket.
Perhaps counseling could help? Could make his firearm illegal? Restrict his driving privileges? Better signage on the interstate?


Cheezywan
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  #95  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:36 AM
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These killers, mentally ill, jihadists or whatever, do not fear the police, they do not fear prison, they do not fear the consequences of their actions. What they must fear, if this is to stop, is their victims. We should be putting a gun into the hands of every American. Then these freaks will no longer find a safe place to carry out their evil. They may get one or two but then they will be dead and nobody will care a bit about them. There will be no fame, no glory for allah only death And ridicule for being so stupid. Then, what's the point for them to try this?
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  #96  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:16 AM
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It's worse than that, Joe. They don't fear dying, either. The only way to limit the carnage is to restore the right to self defense to people it has been taken away from.

Speaking of carnage.... our friends on the left, who like to never let a good crisis go to waste, will constantly and incessantly beat the drum about this alleged danger to the continuance of civilization.... but mass shootings, however defined, are only a very small part of the murder rate of the country, which is only a very small part of the accidental death rate of the country.

In fact mass shootings are even significant compared to the annual murders in Chicago, that great gun control mecca of peace. If our friends on the left actually cared about saving human lives, which they don't, they would instead insist that we just round up every inner city youth wearing gang colors, just on the premise that gang members are in fact responsible for a disproportionate rate of murder and mayhem. But, the howling from the civil libertarians .... I can hear it now....

And, still, despite it being pointed out many times in this thread alone, our friends on the left ignore the fact that there are already processes to adjudicate people as mentally incompetent. No no no.... we don't need to follow any existing process or law, we just KNOW when someone shouldn't have a gun!

We see this on the forum after every such (tragic) event; the knee-jerk reaction and the 'opportunity' for the left to come onto the forum, and simultaneously promote their moral superiority vis-a-vis, while at the same time displaying appalling ignorance of very simple math, and equally appalling ignorance of existing law.

And they love to pretend such things would stop terrorists! I wonder if there was an equally ignorant faction in 1944/1945 who suggested that new mental health laws were all it would take to stop kamikazes, vs. the more expedient solution that the Navy found in the quad-mount 40mm Bofors?
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  #97  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:46 AM
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You're correct about the left not really caring about saving human lives.
It's evident as obama has released 872 felons from jail. More than the last 11 presidents combined. Most are violent drug dealers.
Many will go back to their neighborhoods and commit new crimes and the left will use the carnage as new evidence for gun control. Never mind the fast and furious felonies and their minions will continue to drink the kool-aid.
You can't make this stuff up.
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  #98  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by roseman View Post
You're correct about the left not really caring about saving human lives.
It's evident as obama has released 872 felons from jail. More than the last 11 presidents combined. Most are violent drug dealers.
Many will go back to their neighborhoods and commit new crimes and the left will use the carnage as new evidence for gun control. Never mind the fast and furious felonies and their minions will continue to drink the kool-aid.
You can't make this stuff up.
Can I get an AMEN!!??
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  #99  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roseman View Post
You're correct about the left not really caring about saving human lives.
It's evident as obama has released 872 felons from jail. More than the last 11 presidents combined. Most are violent drug dealers.
Many will go back to their neighborhoods and commit new crimes and the left will use the carnage as new evidence for gun control. Never mind the fast and furious felonies and their minions will continue to drink the kool-aid.
You can't make this stuff up.
Actually, the commutations were not given to any felons who committed crimes that involved violence, but I'm sure that doesn't matter to the bash Obama no matter what crowd.
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  #100  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:45 AM
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Any more political postings will cause this thread to close. Fair warning.
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