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  #81  
Old 03-19-2017, 09:30 AM
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Got the book...


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I have started on the book. Right, if interested in this topic it is a necessary read. How was Remington able to keep their side of this lawsuit from the public record.

Thanks for the documentation. The memo is hard to read. Did the word "theoretical." at the time cloud the issue?
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  #82  
Old 03-19-2017, 10:19 AM
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Every judge agreed to hold the proceedings under seal because there is a part of some law that says you can't ruin a business by revealing their trade secrets through court documents.
Part of the 'discovery' process is a request for information from the plaintiff's team. They essentially want the company to copy everything in every drawer, every filing cabinet, hard drive, library, data center, minutes of meetings, memos, letters, customer service records, testing records, engineering changes, tool changes, material changes and all the data sheets for every thing supplied.
I once spent ten straight days in a conference room going through about 88,000 pages of copies much like we see above. It is IMPORTANT that the lawyer be specific in exactly what he wants, in what form and what it should cover. NOT pages and pages of scrambled models when only one is at issue. It complicates matters when the same trigger is used in 25 different models, too. I don't care for handling paper. I no longer get bankers boxes totally full of rubber banded bundles of copies. I down load zip files, now.

"Theroetical" is the geometry of the drawing compared with the reality of the part. Walker calculated how high the safety sear (Early Walkers had two sears) would rise above the top of the connector. You see TINY clearances there. Sear lift now is .008 to .012". In December 1946 they were seeing ACTUAL lifts of less than .003. That sets up a 'door stop' debris interference should the trigger be pulled during the time the sear was lifted that tiny amount. Actual 'scrubbing' of the sear on the connector as the trigger is pulled on safe usually causes an FSR.

SO, as early as Dec. 1946, Walker knew the clearance was critical and more was better but he was faced with having to used STAMPED metal parts that weren't heat-treated 'glass hard' like case hardending. The wear parts had to be made of sheet metal, capable of blanking and forming and still be hard enough to wear in a place that took a LOT of it. He correctly foretold the safety cam top wearing that .003 and causing an FSR every time.

The SAME sear lift problem is what caused the Model 600 recall. More than 50% of brand new guns still in the warehouse had NO sear lift!!
Remington's 'cure'? Knurl the top of the safety cam. I'm pretty sure they'd execute the engineer that did that in China.

Thank you for getting and reading the book. It was the biggest risk I've ever taken.
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Last edited by JBelk; 03-19-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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  #83  
Old 03-19-2017, 03:08 PM
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Video of walker trigger showing connector moving off of the rest of the trigger 'body' during firing cycle.

The purpose of the video is to educate gun owners on the possibility of debris getting between the connector and the trigger body, which can result in the sear engagement reduced, as well as the angle being changed, if the connector does not re-seat. Forum members can draw their own conclusions about what risk this might present on their firearms that have the Walker trigger.
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File Type: avi highspeedvideooneofseven.avi (3.94 MB, 28 views)
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  #84  
Old 03-19-2017, 03:10 PM
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If anyone can't open the video, let me know. I temporarily enabled the .avi extension so I could upload, then disabled it for security / bandwidth reasons. If it turns out there are other videos that may concern safety issues, I will consider uploading them, depending on how this goes.
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  #85  
Old 03-19-2017, 08:36 PM
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Something else I learned today, through ACTUAL OBSERVATION and TESTING - the threshold of what size of 'crap' could have fallen through my Walker trigger, and jammed it.

First - the clearance between the sear and the trigger body is about 0.004" as measured by a common feeler gage. 0.005" was a real tight fit. Note that the 'post' sticking up on the top left of the trigger, was just a hex bit out of a screwdriver set to hold the pieces together.

Second, the clearance between the trigger body, and the connector, was about 0.0015" or so. A 0.002" gage would not go between them.

So, debris larger than 0.005" would likely not have been able to get inside the trigger mechanism. Debris smaller than 0.001" would have likely fallen on through without incident. The 'danger zone' would be between those two measurements. Other examples of the walker trigger may have different numbers, but these are correct for mine.

Complicated? No. Anyone with a set of automotive feeler gages, and some curiosity, could answer the same questions. This is in contrast to one of our more well-known gun writers, who felt it incumbent to add this to the description of one of his articles on the issue:

Quote:
....is the Rifles editor for (deleted). His writing ability and knowledge of firearms are often referred to as "godlike."
Indeed! I'm going to mail the guy a set of feeler gages, along with this exact trigger at my expense, if he will consent to actually looking at one of the triggers and then using his god-like abilities to describe how the pieces work together...

But don't hold your breath.
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Remington makes news again-walkersearclearance.jpg   Remington makes news again-walkerconnectorclearance-1.jpg   Remington makes news again-walkerconnectorclearance-2.jpg  
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  #86  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:21 AM
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Great thread !....

reminds me of a Jaguar I used to own----- nice car, when everything worked.
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  #87  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:35 AM
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You just reminded me of the 1980s dacia duster 4x4. It was certainly an off road vehicle, very few people could keep them going for long enough to get them on the road.

I m guessing that there would have been a lot fewer (dangerous) walker triggers and common fire controls out there if gunzine writers had called the things out for what they were

Rather than trotting out the same bs as the joke story about the Diecast copy of a type 47 Nambu pistol tells (if anyone's not seen a version of it, say and ill post one)

Over here, Remington rifles are a horrendous price, and the reputation that leads people into paying that price is totally unjustified.

Without the fawning coverage of all things green, we probably wouldn't have seen the post 64 model 70
I think that the gunzine scribblers are more to blame for distorting people's perceptions than Remington is.


Not that du pont are in anyway angels ( check out the story behind the race baiting propaganda film, reefer madness, and the du pont connection)
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  #88  
Old 03-20-2017, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ICL View Post
Over here, Remington rifles are a horrendous price, and the reputation that leads people into paying that price is totally unjustified.
I cannot imagine the prices you guys have to pay for one given that I think they are overpriced in the U.S. as well.
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  #89  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:04 AM
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Where I'm at......Do it.

It may not be for years before this Walker Trigger business is resolved in the minds of those who have followed the suit pro and con. Underlying my stuff is that I have successfully used Remington 700's for many years. During that time the only problem firearms were those tuned by Bubba. In business and as shooter handling many 700's none of these problems surfaced. This only means that problems did not show up in my personal experience.

What to do now? I downloaded the information and returned my 700 SPS stainless 7mm-08. Got the box and shipping label and could have arranged a pickup. It took longer to get authorization to ship than to get the rifle fixed. Replacement predated this thread.

For Me:The rifle was returned having the trigger replaced and been test fired. Shooting off hand the trigger was fine but a little heavy feeling from the rest.The next will be the 721.

Why? It's not worth the risk of having an accident. Am I going to adjust new the trigger? H....no, not in this lifetime. Incidentally, It's taken longer for Savage to fix a B-Mag. I'm still skeptical but not willing to take the risk.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 03-20-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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  #90  
Old 03-20-2017, 09:20 AM
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Which trigger did your rifle end up with? Any idea on the pull weight? How does that trigger 'feel' vs. other rifle triggers?
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  #91  
Old 03-20-2017, 02:52 PM
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Mike, excellent questions. I will scramble to find document that came with the rifle to give you the exact nomenclature. We guessed the weight to be five pounds, probably some less, as the trigger pull gauge died. The trigger felt taunter and it broke cleanly. There was no creep and the over travel was adjusted correctly. Honestly, this trigger is an improvement. The trigger can be adjusted with a 1/16 Allen wrench but not by me. Also, thanks for you work in this thread. Also, would the animations make a good "sticky"?

Last edited by William A. Reed; 03-20-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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  #92  
Old 03-20-2017, 02:54 PM
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WAR--- If the face of your trigger is smooth and gray or silver, it's an XMP. You say it's adjustable by allen wrench, that means it's a second model XMP. You can back that screw out to reduce the pull WITHOUT hurting anything. That trigger actually has two return springs, the one you can see is just to play with.
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  #93  
Old 03-20-2017, 03:15 PM
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Trigger-Silver with a screw

The trigger is silver with screw in the center. Also, thanks for your considerable efforts explaining the situation on the Walker Trigger. After all this work I hope you guys make sure there is a sticky with the animations.

Thank also for the information on the trigger. I'm gonna leave it be until the rifle has been shot some more.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 03-20-2017 at 03:18 PM.
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  #94  
Old 03-20-2017, 04:10 PM
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William, that's the "New and Improved" XMP that's adjustable for "pull". It goes from really really heavy down to just a bit more than really heavy. There should have been a weee (1/16") allen wrench come with the rifle. At least that's how my 25-06 LR came.

RJ
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  #95  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:06 PM
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RJ--You're right. The 'real' spring is hidden and sealed under the stock. The external adjustment only ADDS to the weight.
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  #96  
Old 04-26-2017, 01:23 AM
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Trigger pull on the new trigger....such as it is.

Trigger Pull: This rifle is a 700 SPS Stainless in 7mm-08. I had been asked about the trigger pull after the retro fit/recall. On the upside the trigger had no creep. Off hand the trigger was somewhat heavy as estimated at five plus pounds. As it came the pull was six and a quarter pounds consistently, I'm really having trouble handling this rifle from the bench. This weight pull is the only concern. An aftermarket trigger is becoming more attractive.

Addendum: After some adjustment the pull is now 4.5 pounds. That's a great improvement. The adjustment screw on this trigger did make a difference.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 04-26-2017 at 01:58 AM.
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  #97  
Old 04-26-2017, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
RJ--- When a home gunsmith 'adjust' a Walker trigger and it fails, we blame the 'smith for doing it wrong.
The Walker trigger can 'adjust' itself at ANY time and then resume normal operation. For that we blame the engineer that designed an 'uncertain' trigger mechanism AND the company that continued to use it for 60 years after THAT engineer told them what the error was AND how to correct it.

The Walker trigger is DEFECTIVE in DESIGN and is made worse by manufacturing mistakes and amateur adjustments.
Mr. Belk, I've read and followed your posts here from the first time I read one. And as usual, I agree (again) with your opinion here. The single most condemning factor is the fact that Remington was told, YEARS ago, by the engineer that designed the trigger, that there was a problem. They decided to put profits ahead of safety, and CONTINUED to use the design(!!!!!) for YEARS after being told there was a problem, having it explained to them, verified by independent engineers, and evaluating what it would cost them to fix it. Only recently did they ever change the trigger design to get away from the problem. I know, being in manufacturing, the expenses incurred in making a production change. I deal with them every day. I also know the expenses incurred when you have to pay up when somebody gets injured or even killed due to a product. Why ANYONE in the position that the board was in would decide to ignore their own engineers opinion, and CONTINUE to use what they had been TOLD was a defect, KNOWING the liability had to be there, I'll never fathom. The expense of rep[lacing all those triggers WHEN THEY WERE FIRST INFORMED is infintismal compared to what they will see NOW, and in the future. If they think the ambulance chasers have been thick before, they ain't seen nothing yet.
I won a Remington 788.Different trigger. Used to own a Sendero, which IS the 700, and the Walker trigger. Never had a problem. Loved both guns. Remington squandered a LOT of customer loyalty when they made the decision to stay with what they had been told, repeatedly, was a problem. Their recent decline in quality is further eroding that position. I just hope this doesn't bankrupt them. I'd hate to see that. But it would almost befit them. Another fine American company suffering at the hands of whiz bang MBAs who know only figures at the bottom of a page, more concerned with that bottom line than how the company got to where it is.
Sadly, far to common in US business today. Not just in firearms, but across the board. I sum it up with two words. "NO PRIDE!"
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  #98  
Old 04-26-2017, 04:52 AM
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Quote:
The adjustment screw on this trigger did make a difference.
I looked at a new 700 out of the stock last week and noticed the secondary spring (top of the trigger) was under compression. That one, and evidently yours too, was pre-loaded with both springs. That means the lightest pull will be with the adjustment screw all the way out or that spring removed entirely.

That's in keeping with Paul Mauser's 'standard' of "Half friction-half spring" that I've used for decades.
Material failure is my biggest concern with the XMP at this point. Once you see one broken it sours the outlook for a 'good' trigger, for me.

It is the sear-trigger over-lap, called the "sear engagement" that determines three things:

PULL-- The sear engagement is where more than 99% of the FRICTION comes from in a trigger pull.

CREEP-- The 'creep' we feel is the trigger movement against the sear. Proper GEOMETRY, finish, accuracy of engagement and heat-treat all play a part in preventing creep or creating it.

SAFETY-- The safety of the rifle depends on about .002 square inch of steel where the SEAR rest on top of the TRIGGER. You can see it through the inspection hole on 99% of all triggers. THAT overlap is SO important that lives depend on it.

IF the sear engagement is too much, there will likely be creep, if the geometry is wrong (flat to flat without a 'climb'), there will be creep. If the surfaces are not engaged properly and evenly, there will be creep. If the surfaces are rough and finished poorly, creep is the result. If a gunsmith (or Bubba) decides something is 'wrong' without knowing how it's 'right' we called it a badly 'adjusted' or 'altered' trigger.

The very fine line all over-ride triggers ride all the time is the fragility of the connection between sear and trigger. To be a "good" trigger it has to VERY close to "too dangerous to use". Look at one to see the truth in that statement. What we consider a 'good' hunting trigger would have been considered a serious target trigger a hundred years ago.
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  #99  
Old 04-26-2017, 10:54 AM
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Well, went another direction-adjusted the new trigger

Remington 700 SPS Stainless 7mm-08: This is the way it worked out. Swore not to fiddle with new trigger. However, nobody could explain the benefit of 6.25# trigger pull on a 7.60# rifle. Backing the trigger adjusting screw out did reduce the pull to 4.5#. Much better. The adjustment will be left there for the time being. Still no creep or over travel.

My feeling is that Remington did this, to adjust trigger heavy, for a reason. Set heavy made any additional adjustment by the owner. This adjusting made accidents on me like my responsibility.

jBelk: Thanks for your comments on the trigger. I'll turn the screw but it will be a cold day in **** when that spring gets taken out. That would really put the ball in my court if something unfortunate happened.

Also, got two cartons from Remington last week. Phoned the recall number since there were no documents enclosed. The retro fits are still on hold pending outcome of the appeal. Furthermore, the lady said I should not have gotten cartons. Told her that one the rifles included was a 721( I remember your comments on those rifles). She explained that 721's were not to be retro fitted. Depending on the outcome of the appeal a voucher would be offered. Well, ten years from new....Thanks again.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 04-26-2017 at 11:31 AM.
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  #100  
Old 04-26-2017, 11:55 AM
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I can only imagine the chicken house of confusion going on trying to handle the re-call of the '06-'14 XPM and questions about the Pollard case. I can see how shipping boxes could be sent to every address on a list....a combined list.

The M721 is the worst of the Walkers and has all the features later dropped in an attempt to make them safer. If you have a really nice gun that you want to preserve the original formed trigger and stamped safety, I can repair your trigger by replacing the double sears with a single and affixing the connector with the proper grind to keep it attached and cutting the safety lever so it no longer locks closed. That makes it as safe as an aftermarket trigger while retaining the M721 unique look.

On a using, sporting rifle, replace the Walker with a solid trigger aftermarket of your choice.
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