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  #21  
Old 05-17-2017, 02:22 AM
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With our second amendment right, we are citizens. Without it we become serfs.
The left understands that the control over us they seek can not come to pass if we remain citizens.
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  #22  
Old 05-17-2017, 06:25 AM
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Although there is lots of reasons to keep the second amendment intact. Reason the founding fathers included it seems to escape the liberals. It is there to keep the government from ruling by decree instead of by representation.
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  #23  
Old 05-17-2017, 06:39 AM
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Good Morning, MontyF,

The sad reality is we've been ruled since 1913. The republic that was patrimony of our Founding Fathers exists as only illusion.
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  #24  
Old 05-17-2017, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci View Post
Good Morning, MontyF,

The sad reality is we've been ruled since 1913. The republic that was patrimony of our Founding Fathers exists as only illusion.
Afraid you are right. Never noticed before these last eight years.
The thing that drove it home was with the highly tanted Affordable Health Care fiasco. The provider I had for 15 years dropped me. Since they were not renewing old policies or writing new ones. Then paying a penality for not having insurance which I couldn't afford.
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Last edited by MontyF; 05-17-2017 at 07:04 AM.
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  #25  
Old 05-17-2017, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci View Post
BearBear,


We have been duped in to believing that government can determine which rights we have. It can't. Government is powerless to interfere with God's will."
Government may not be able to determine what rights we have but it can put you in jail if it has a different interpretation than you.

I used extreme examples to demonstrate that the rights are not ABSOLUTE. Once we are past that, then we start talking about degrees. Since the 1930s one has had to have a special license to possess fully automatic weapons. Is that reasonable or not? Opinions differ. What about a hand grenade? An RPG? If I can own a revolver but not a semi-automatic am I denied my right to bear arms? These are the questions that must be settled by political and social means, not by just yelling about our rights all the louder.

What we need are judges that can read the 2nd Amendment and understand that the word "bear" means "carry," whether he likes it or not
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  #26  
Old 05-17-2017, 01:00 PM
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Its the right to bear arms. Those who don't like that read it as, bare you of arms.
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  #27  
Old 05-17-2017, 04:08 PM
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BearBear,

The fallacy of your reasoning is that if our rights are not absolute, government would determine the extent of them. That's a frightening concept, a concept that initiated our Revolutionary War. Jefferson explicated colonists' rights that King George III had trammeled which justified our separation from the crown.

Madison knew that government was powerless to infringe upon our natural rights, rights that John Locke had identified in the 17th century.

Who in government do you trust to determine the extent of your rights?

Keep and BEAR arms eliminates extremism. I'm not sure of its extent. The Second Amendment was written to give Americans ability to retake their government should it fall under control of a tyrant. Using Madison's intention, maybe a RPG would be covered by the Second Amendment.

Full automatic weapons should not be regulated. If a guy wants to shoot a fully automatic weapon, what rationale could government give to satisfy you that it has power to tell an American citizen he can't own one?

We've jumped on that slippery slope in 1934. We've gone downhill since. We need to stay off of slippery slopes. And we need to call BS when pettifoggers and judges/justices shove their totalitarian agendas down our throats. Denying Americans their rights in a USC felony. Start imprisoning judges/justices & we'll restore maximum individual liberty.
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  #28  
Old 05-17-2017, 06:03 PM
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Just powers are derived from consent of the governed. The constitution does not grant the government power to regulate ANY arm.

If you want to ban citizens from owning nuclear weapons then go get a d@@@ constitutional amendment.

Should be easy enough to do.

There is a process. Follow it.

Getting things past a simple majority is far to easy. That's why they made it hard to do. We are NOT a democracy. For very good reasons.
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  #29  
Old 05-17-2017, 06:31 PM
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Interestingly, the appellate court ruled that the National Firearms act of 1934 was unconstitutional. That ruling was reversed by the supreme court and the assault on the second amendment began.
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Last edited by roseman; 05-18-2017 at 09:53 AM.
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  #30  
Old 05-18-2017, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci View Post
BearBear,

The Second Amendment was written to give Americans ability to retake their government should it fall under control of a tyrant. Using Madison's intention, maybe a RPG would be covered by the Second Amendment.
Interestingly, the introductory part of the Amendment puts that in context. Anti-gunners want to say that the amendment allows the National Guard to have arms, which is hogwash. The militia was and is all able bodied citizens. Being well regulated means to be trained and equipped. being necessary for a free state means that there should be a force of citizens to counterbalance the threat of a standing centrally controlled power. The problem we have is just having arms does not ensure protection against tyranny. A bunch of yanoos running around with Winchesters is not going to present much of an impediment. The states should re-invigorate militias apart from the National Guard where citizens can be properly trained (regulated). While I wouldn't want my idiot neighbor engaging in target practice with his RPG, I wouldn't mind my local militia barracks having and training with them.
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  #31  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SansSouci View Post
BearBear,

The fallacy of your reasoning is that if our rights are not absolute, government would determine the extent of them. That's a frightening concept, a concept that initiated our Revolutionary War. Jefferson explicated colonists' rights that King George III had trammeled which justified our separation from the crown.
You are a bit late on that issue. Even in revolutionary times when the Bill of RIghts was passed, there were limitations on what appeared to be absolute rights. There were laws against slander and pornography on the books. Within ten years, Congress passed the Alien and Sedition Act.

Also, the Bill of Rights only prohibited federal action. The states did not have to ensure the same rights (most did) and the rights did not apply to everyone until the 14th amendment was passed just after the civil war.

Now it is hard to say the rights are absolute. Maybe they should be but they have not been so treated at any time by our courts. A few examples:


1st. Right of the free exercise of religion is not absolute. Plural marriage, peyote smoking, and animal sacrifice are just some of the prohibited practices.

Right to peaceably assemble can be regulated by license.

free press does not allow malicious libel

free speech does not allow slander or incitement if imminent violence

3rd The government can prescribe the conditions under which Soldiers can be quartered in your house.

4th Warrants can be issued without probable cause and without a description of the particular things sought pursuant to many recent laws.

5th You may be held in jeopardy for the same offence in state court and then federal court. You can be held for trial by the filing of an "information" rather than an indictment by a grand jury.

7th fewer and fewer matters are tried pursuant to common law

8th excessive bail is routine

9th and 10th more and more people claim if your right is not found in the constitution, you don't have it, the opposite of what the amendment says

Felons lose many of their civil rights even though the Constitution has no stipulation.

To me, the important thing is to ensure the people we have in positions of power exercise it or refrain from exercising it in a reasonable manner
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  #32  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:27 AM
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One's right to life is absolute unless he fails to get out of the womb fast enough!
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  #33  
Old 05-18-2017, 10:34 AM
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I just came across this. It was in the first draft of the Bill of Rights introduced in the House by James Madison:

Art. 5. A well regulated militia, composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed,

The parenthetical "composed of the body of the people" clearly defines what a militia is.
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  #34  
Old 05-18-2017, 02:12 PM
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Hi BearBear,

We appear to be dedicated to the same concerns. We differ on how they're interpreted. James Madison authored our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. Hamilton, Jay and he explicated Madison's intent in the Federalist Papers. Madison authored The Federalist No. 46. In it, he wrote that should all constitutional safeguards he created to prevent tyranny fail the We, the People have the right to own arms so that we could retake our country's government by force. Let's pray it never comes to that. But his intent was crystal clear: we have the right to retake our country by force of arms from a tyrant should necessity arise.

We have screwed up by not insisting that the Second Amendment be amended consistently with Article V before our RIGHT to keep and bear arms was infringed.

The Second Amendment is not about hunting, target shooting, collecting, plinking, home defense, or any other reason. Our Second Amendment is about securing and defending the patrimony of our founding Fathers.

The only legal method of infringing upon our right to keep and bear arms is via Article V, for any law that contradicts the United States Constitution is null and void.

Watch this video. This woman nailed it, and US senators knew that she had nailed it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1u0Byq5Qis
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  #35  
Old 05-18-2017, 03:00 PM
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The worst law enacted in our country was the Federal Reserve Act. It is unconstitutional because it violates Article I, Section 8, Paragraph 5 of the United States Constitution. Only congress has power to coin money. The Creature from Jekyll Island obliterated the concept of government of the people, by the people, and for the people. It surrendered our sovereignty to a cartel that has seized control of our government. The Federal Reserve Act replaced self-government with rule of America's ruling elite. President Wilson acknowledged that his signing that law destroyed the country created by our Founding Fathers.

There are many reasons that Democrats and neocons fear President Trump. He isn't of America's ruling elite caste. He's his own man. Like JFK who had tried to destroy the Federal Reserve, President Trump can expose it for the fraud that it is.

“Give me control of a nation’s money supply, and I care not who makes its laws.”
---Mayer Amschel Rothschild

“I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men.”
---President Woodrow Wilson after signing the Federal Reserve Act into law

We are not a free people. We are ruled by the cartel that controls the unconstitutional Federal Reserve, which is a private money printing scheme, not a US governmental agency.
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  #36  
Old 05-19-2017, 07:53 AM
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We have to remember that the old Soviet Union had a wonderful constitution, quite like ours guaranteeing all kinds of rights. But it was just words on paper. It is the people in government and the citizenry who determine whether rights are truly protected. Influencing those people to follow the principal of the sovereign individual is our true mission. And its one citizen at a time.
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  #37  
Old 05-19-2017, 01:44 PM
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None of this would matter that much if....

you-all would just smoke more of that legal marijuana that's become available these days.
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