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  #1  
Old 04-14-2017, 12:21 PM
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Military Rifle barrels


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OK to start I shoot old Military Mausers.
I shoot Cast Lead bullets in all of them.
Have been shooting with lead for about 40 years
I have always had black patches no matter how many times I run the brush through the bore.
First is black and then it gets cleaner each time.
But run the brush again and you again get a black patch.
Do it 20 times and it is the same.

Recently someone told me that older military barrels (pre WW2 ) always do this something to do with the barrel steel so I am curious and want to know a difinative answer.
Do they always do it or am I doing something wrong all these years.

Cleaning regimen is.

Clean with ED;s Red
brass brush.
3-4 passes per shot.
patch with ED's Red 3-4 times.

Do again until bore shines but still shows black after brushing on first patch.


old beekeeper

Last edited by old beekeeper; 04-14-2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:32 PM
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First off, how's your accuracy? If you're getting satisfactory groups, then, as long as there's no corrosion, or lead build up, I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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  #3  
Old 04-14-2017, 06:12 PM
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Military rifle barrels

On the one I am most interested in I am able to hold 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards and 2 1/2 at 200 yards.
It is an Israeli Mauser in .308 with a 1-14 twist barrel
I shoot a 155 grain 312 diameter bullet using 28 grains of IMR 4198.
Am able to get it out to 465 yards but am not able to hold a decent group.

The barrel is 1950"s vintage
It is on a converted Yugo Mauser sold to the Israeli"s during their war for freedom and converted in England to .308.
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  #4  
Old 04-14-2017, 07:32 PM
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I shoot nothing but moly-coated bullets and use nothing but a Bore Snake to clean with. Several barrels that have shot moly-coated bullets have come through my shop for patch cleaning and never seemed to come completely clean. That's a good thing with moly!
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Old 04-14-2017, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old beekeeper View Post
On the one I am most interested in I am able to hold 1 1/2 inch at 100 yards and 2 1/2 at 200 yards.
It is an Israeli Mauser in .308 with a 1-14 twist barrel
I shoot a 155 grain 312 diameter bullet using 28 grains of IMR 4198.
Am able to get it out to 465 yards but am not able to hold a decent group.

The barrel is 1950"s vintage
It is on a converted Yugo Mauser sold to the Israeli"s during their war for freedom and converted in England to .308.
The Israelis converted them to 308, not the British. They started importing them here in the late 70s
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  #6  
Old 04-15-2017, 09:58 AM
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I use Ed's Red with lanolin in all my cast bullet guns. After a session, 1 wet patch while the barrel is still warm, 2 more wet when I get home followed by 5 dry and that's it until I shoot again. I never use a brush unless, during load development, I get some leading. I just don't get leading that would require brushing for the most part.

We're talking military rifle barrels, as opposed to handguns which I do brush.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:24 AM
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I will suggest that you have not been patient enough with your cleaning technique and solvents. Is easy (relatively)to get the loose stuff. Harder to get to bare barrel. Need to get there once, and then see what it takes to keep it there I think.

Cheezywan
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  #8  
Old 04-16-2017, 01:55 AM
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I suspect the reason for all the crud build up is most of the military barrels were drilled and broach cut and this procedure leaves thousands of ridges to collect carbon residue where hammer forged and button rifled barrels of later years leave less tool marks.

It is amazing to learn what a good bore scope will tell you. For instance the grooves in the hundreds of barrels I have scoped show no more than 50% bullet contact in the centers. I have seen barrels with no bullet contact evidence in one part and very faint contact evidence in other areas.

What is really interesting is to see the heat checking on the tops of the lands and none in the grooves. This is very prevalent in 7MM Mag barrels I have scoped.

I too like Ed's Red as the best all around bore cleaner I have ever used. Ed sent me the formula about 12 years back and I made up 1 1/2 gallons and knew immediately that was a keeper. I have about four 1 quart bottles of it around the place and use it on many things. I have given away to friends a smaller bottles of it since that time and all started making their own as well. I still make up 1 1/2 gallons at a time but I don't add the acetone as I get too much on my hands.

I once left a 1903A3 barrel wet with it and stored muzzle down. 14 months later I borescoped it and barrel was still wet.

I have also used the Swiss method of using grease to clean bores and it is rather unique in that you can't spill it. I always said there has been more Hoppes #9 spilled than ever got put in bores. Those tall thin original bottles are a dump waiting to happen.

In 2012 I got on the grease and figured out I could pre grease patches and put them in a wide mouth jar and take them to highpower matches. As soon as I got off the 200 yard line I ran a pre greased patch down he bore about 30 passes.

This was repeated when I got off the 300 and after 600 I used about three patches with 30 passes each.

Oh yeah, forgot to add I have 260-270 cal nylon brushes and I cut my GI patches in half and pre greased them. Makes for a nice snug fit in 30 cal barrels when the are applied like the stripes on a barber pole.

I also used 22 cal bronze brushes, did 30 passes with a full sized GI patch, removed it and rewrapped it clean side out and did another 30 and it fit snugly as well.
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  #9  
Old 04-16-2017, 05:17 AM
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Cheezyan,
When I bought this particular rifle it was listed as a u-fix-um.
After a month with an electrolysis cleaner the barrel was as clean as it would come and I started a normal cleaning regimen on it.
It has never come completely clean and has always showed black on the first patch.
Back when I was building it I cleaned for as much as an hour at a time and never got it any cleaner than it is now.
That is the reason for asking the original question.
So it is not from lack of cleaning


old beekeeper
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  #10  
Old 04-16-2017, 06:47 AM
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Every once in a while I get what I call "brown" patches coming out of what I believe are VERY clean barrels. Probably down to bare steel. My theory is that I'm scorching (burning) the very tight patches due to friction as they are being pushed through the barrel. Does this make any sense to anybody? I'd like confirmation or de-bunking of my theory. It sometimes drives me nuts!

Luisyamaha
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  #11  
Old 04-16-2017, 07:07 AM
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You are NOT scorching patches!! That' is surface rust that forms on perfectly clean barrels OR the varnish that forms with some gun oils.

I clean customer barrels with strong cleaners, solvents and sometimes it even takes abrasives to get out the fouling.
My own barrels shoot moly coated bullets and get a Bore Snake pulled through it every now and then. It's bore scope proven to work whether it makes sense or not. It DOES work.

I would invite anybody to look at barrel interior micro-graphs and see how much surface area a rifle barrel actually has. The very best of custom barrels are lapped BEFORE rifling to kill the radial machining marks from the reamer that cleaned up the same marks made by the drill. Factory barrel do NOT do this so they still have the radial tool marks that are 'ironed' in by pulling through the 'button' which forms the rifling.

Look close at this Remington barrel and imagine some of those marks are deep enough to have been 'smeared' closed by the button. Those hidden 'wrinkles' hides fouling that leaks out with solvent over time.
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-16-2017 at 07:23 AM.
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  #12  
Old 04-17-2017, 09:07 AM
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A month does seem a long time (for cleaning a barrel), but the fact that you are not yet getting clean patches indicates you are not down to bare naked barrel steel yet. Don't want cleaning rods to cause damage. I've used a couple of wet patches in the morning before work, and a couple more wet patches when I get home from work before. Just stay after it until clean.Days, weeks, whatever it takes. It has to get clean eventually (so long as you are not adding any fouling).
How long did it take to get that dirty?
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Old 04-17-2017, 09:13 AM
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Suggestion, drop by Wally World and qet a quart of Mobil 1 synthetic motor oil. 0W20 or 5W20. Apply to a patch on a slotted jag and mop it into your bore. Then take a paper towel and fold it twice making a square and place on floor with muzzle on it and let it sit overnight or longer. Run clean patches down and save them. Repeat the above and see if the second set of patches are just as dirty.

It also makes good gun oil.
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Old 04-18-2017, 02:25 AM
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Tight metal to metal contact. Internal combustion. Engines. Gun barrels. Hmmm.
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  #15  
Old 04-18-2017, 09:43 AM
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Jbelk: these "scorched" patches are coming out while I'm just about finished with the cleaning. They are the last dry patches through the bore, before I put some oil for storage (Mobil 1 ATF). My wet patches are already coming out clean. No blue, no black, no bluish green. Nothing. These are not barrels that were cleaned a month earlier either. I mean, I live in a very high humidity area, but I can't believe my stainless steel barrels are rusting within minutes of being cleaned. I'll take it under advisement though, and next time I notice it, I'll put some Naval Jelly on the patch and see what happens to the "scorch" or "rust" marks. I assume "scorch" marks won't be affected by the rust-dissolving Naval Jelly, where rust would be. It's worth testing.
Thanks for the alternate idea.

Luisyamaha
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:47 AM
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BTW, what is this "Swiss method of using grease to clean bores"? I'd like to hear about that, Humpy.

Luisyamaha
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Old 04-18-2017, 09:56 AM
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I lived for several years with home-generated power by a big (650 lbs) 6 HP diesel engine with 24 inch external flywheels. It only turned 600 rpm but that's 62 feet per second on the exterior of the flywheel. There's no way to scorch a rag on it unless there's a highly leveraged 2x4 behind it. (You can blister a hand beneath a wet leather glove, though. Lesson one learned the hard way with a Lister 6-1, test horsepower and governor operation with a 2x4 not your hand!!)

The scientific method demands a test!! Who has a pellet rifle and a chronograph? We need a cloth pellet to see at what speeds the scorch shows up!

If I had the $$$ to spend, I'd buy everybody with a rifle a Bore Snake to fit it. Until you see one work, it does defy logic. Once you SEE one work, it's only logical to use nothing else.
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-18-2017 at 10:01 AM.
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  #18  
Old 04-18-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luisyamaha View Post
Every once in a while I get what I call "brown" patches coming out of what I believe are VERY clean barrels. Probably down to bare steel. My theory is that I'm scorching (burning) the very tight patches due to friction as they are being pushed through the barrel. Does this make any sense to anybody? I'd like confirmation or de-bunking of my theory. It sometimes drives me nuts!

Luisyamaha
Try a different brand of oil / gun cleaner and see if you get the same results.... just a thought.
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Old 04-18-2017, 04:48 PM
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Swiss cleaning kits come with a container of grease called Automattenfett (not sure on that spelling) but it is black. They dip bronze brush in it and scrub barrel. Then put the same grease on a patch and run them multiple passes. You never see a Swiss rifle with as bad bore and they have been doing this since I think 1890s??????

I use Grease Auto and Artillery GAA or Grease Aircraft Wide Temperature Range WTR.

On another thread (This rifle made for walking) that is the only cleaning method employed on it since new and it has like 67 rounds on barrel now.

When you get through you will have a very light coating of grease on surface of barrel. I leave it there and it reduces the wild first shot of a cold clean barrel. to give you an idea of how thick the coating is take the patch off the brush and wipe it on a window or your glasses. All it will do is smear them a bit, there is not buildup. It also protects bore from rusting.
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Last edited by Humpy; 04-19-2017 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:21 AM
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Hmpy: Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll try that in the "never quite clean" Mosin-Nagant surplus rifles.

JBelk, Mike G: I'll experiment. I'll clear up that this "scorching" I've seen is on stainless steel Krieger barrrels (4 of them) not on regular steel new nor surplus firearms. If memory serves, I've had these down to bare metal with brake cleaner after no longer getting any color in the patches with solvent. Just running dry patches through to make sure they are dry before putting some Mobil 1 ATF for storage. My usual bore cleaner is Butch's Bore Shine, but I do have other stuff I use on other rifles. I can give it a try on one of the Kreigers. I even have Ed's Red I use (a lot of) in the Mosins. I'll play with it and report later. thanks for all the ideas/theories.

Luisyamaha
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