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  #361  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:04 AM
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Anyone know of penetration tests done with the 357mag, is there a problem with over penetration and don't mean on the human body, missed shots going through exterior walls into the neighbors house or into the street where innocent bystanders may be hit?
Just wondering why police don't use the round much anymore.
I know that revolvers don't do well in drop tests, seen those.
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  #362  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:09 AM
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I know that revolvers don't do well in drop tests, seen those.
There has never been a failure of a DA revolver in a drop test. Details please.
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  #363  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
There has never been a failure of a DA revolver in a drop test. Details please.
I don't recall where I read it Jack but for you to say there's never been a failure in a drop test for a DA revolver doesn't seem possible. Logic would seem to indicate that any mechanical device with an exterior part that can be damaged {hammer} could be rendered inoperable under the right circumstances. Semi-autos with internal hammers would seem to be the most capable of being fired at least one time. The ability to fire a second shot from a beat up gun would surely go the semi-auto with revolver cylinders being somewhat fragile.

The more I think about it I believe it was a military test.
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  #364  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:34 AM
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Maybe we should define 'drop test'. Quality DA revolver designed since 1898 have a combination of POSITIVE safety features that prevent them from firing when they're dropped. They are the ultimate in SAFE.

It sounds like you have it mixed up with durability test. The autos win that because JM Browning made it easy to field strip and clean.

I'll admit that quality DA revolvers are too fragile to crawl around in the mud and don't operate when they're dirty or abused....and adjustable rear sights are fragile too.

BUT DA revolvers shoot when you pull the trigger, right handed, left handed, upside down and backwards. If the first round is a dud, you 'clear it' and shoot by pulling the trigger again. They take no training, they don't go bad by being loaded for nearly forever and don't lose magazines.

I carry an auto because they're flat, not because they're reliable.

BTW-- I told the story of my shift captain in the sheriff's office that carried an in-operable Python for more than a month! Page 37 "Unsafe by Design".
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-15-2017 at 08:37 AM.
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  #365  
Old 04-15-2017, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Quality DA revolver designed since 1898 have a combination of POSITIVE safety features that prevent them from firing when they're dropped. They are the ultimate in SAFE.
Much respect for you and your trade. Not challenging, but have memory of being in the guts of a revolver or two. Pre-transfer bar for certain. Very fragile looking interference "thingys" to keep the hammer from making contact with a primer. Left me with an "impression" to not trust with a fall on the hammer.
You would know for sure Mr. Belk. I can't remember what I was working on? Perhaps were just el-cheapos (is a Mexican technical term)?

Cheezywan
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  #366  
Old 04-15-2017, 04:25 PM
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I can't remember what I was working on?
It sounds like a Buffalo Rohm. The worst of the cheap import single actions.

DA revolvers have multiple blocks, locks and interceptors that positively keeps firing pin away from the primer.

A common S&W will withstand total destruction and it can't fire without the trigger being pulled and KEPT pulled.

Some of the secret is in tight fitting parts that don't have room to deform. If you hit the hammer hard enough to bend the safety bar the hammer still can't fall. The safety bar is still there. Should it have been taken out (some"gunsmiths" do), the hammer STILL can't hit the primer unless the trigger is pulled because the rebound slide is in the way. The rebound slide doesn't collapse and fail because the side plate is holding it together.
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  #367  
Old 04-15-2017, 06:01 PM
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As I recall, when Evan Marshall first collected one-shot-stop records, the Federal 125 grain .357 Magnum load had the best record in police one-shot shootings that he found at that time. There are lots of problems and legitimate criticisms of his Marshal's work, but, for what it's worth, the idea the .357 is a poor defensive choice would seem hard to support in light of the record it had under Marshalís limited set of criteria. It suggests rather strongly that the cartridge itself does just fine. If you get into arguing double action vs. single action control and indoor sound levels, etc., then you may argue it has problems for shooter-related reasons that some other cartridges would not, but such limitations, as with all particular firearm choices, will depend on the ability of the shooter to handle them.

I don't buy the argument that because 9 mm bullets have been improved greatly since the studies by Fackler and McPherson for the FBI that it means they have necessarily gotten ahead of the .40 cal minimum recommendation for semi-auto pistol cartridges. My reasoning is that every time a new line of 9 mm is introduced as the latest and greatest, the same engineering is then applied to all the other chamberings that manufacturer makes.

As an example, the Federal Hydra-shok was, I believe, the first 9 mm round that began to keep up with the .40's and .45's on ballistic gelatin penetration. But then there came to be Hydra-shok .40's and .45's in the line as well. Indeed, one of the criticisms of the .45 for law enforcement was that a bullet had to start out at about 1100 fps to reliably break tire walls rather than bounce off them. Well, the 185 grain .45 Auto +P Hydra-shok for LE beats that velocity, neatly eliminating one of the long-standing objections to the chambering for LE purposes. So, 9 mm isnít the only cartridge for which improvements have been made.

As to home and carry defense, I cannot think of any incident Iíve read of that required a civilian to shoot out tires or through car doors. My imagination can conjure some up, but I always think relying on imagined scenarios rather than studying real situations is a little like believing Hollywood fictional action scenarios are likely to occur in your real life. Tire and hard barrier penetration is a rather silly to spend much time fretting over in the citizen defensive shooting context.
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  #368  
Old 04-20-2017, 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinbear View Post
Anyone know of penetration tests done with the 357mag, is there a problem with over penetration and don't mean on the human body, missed shots going through exterior walls into the neighbors house or into the street where innocent bystanders may be hit?
Just wondering why police don't use the round much anymore.
I know that revolvers don't do well in drop tests, seen those.
When I went to the academy way back when the range officer asked me what I shoot the most. I simply answered a tuned series 70 Colt. He was glad, they were already moving people away from wheel guns decades ago.
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  #369  
Old 04-21-2017, 04:29 AM
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Those flimsy looking things that are supposed to prevent a revolver from accidentally firing when dropped are, in fact, VERY effective. They only have to stop a firing pin from striking a primer. The tests some of these revolvers have been put through include being placed into a vice and striking the hammer with a ball peen hammer.
As for over penetration from misses, ALL calibers over penetrate when the bullet doesn't strike its intended target.
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  #370  
Old 04-21-2017, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by kudu40 View Post
As for over penetration from misses, ALL calibers over penetrate when the bullet doesn't strike its intended target.
Nope, depends on construction where you are.

.357 and 44 mag will punch a CA type wall, 45acp won't. We've tested it.
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  #371  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:03 AM
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Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Nope, depends on construction where you are.

.357 and 44 mag will punch a CA type wall, 45acp won't. We've tested it.
YOU tested it with EVERY bullet type? As we have seen in MANY situations, a bullets terminal performance & path of travel is about as unpredictable and unique as can be. Any volunteers to stand on the opposite wall for your test?
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  #372  
Old 04-21-2017, 06:18 AM
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I don't/won't miss indoors because I hate doing drywall.

Not many of us (less than 2%) will ever need to pull the trigger on a home invader. Of those 2%, only 20% will have had any FORMAL (military or LEO) training with a firearm . . . . . . . . . . So, again tell me how y'all gon 't go all gangsta on dey a$$ homey.

Harsh words? Maybe. Truth? 100% Click on the link below and tell me you wouldn't immediately crap your pants, which is what the other 98% of us would do if confronted by an intruder.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...82&oe=597A16F5

Tell the truth guys, how would it really go down.

9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, .357, 44 mag, 45ACP or 45-70BRF, you'd be needing new diggers.

Me? I woulda already gone Barney Fife on him and locked Andy and Opey out of the car!!!

RJ
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  #373  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by recoil junky View Post
I don't/won't miss indoors because I hate doing drywall.

Not many of us (less than 2%) will ever need to pull the trigger on a home invader. Of those 2%, only 20% will have had any FORMAL (military or LEO) training with a firearm . . . . . . . . . . So, again tell me how y'all gon 't go all gangsta on dey a$$ homey.

Harsh words? Maybe. Truth? 100% Click on the link below and tell me you wouldn't immediately crap your pants, which is what the other 98% of us would do if confronted by an intruder.

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0...82&oe=597A16F5

Tell the truth guys, how would it really go down.

9mm, 40S&W, 10mm, .357, 44 mag, 45ACP or 45-70BRF, you'd be needing new diggers.

Me? I woulda already gone Barney Fife on him and locked Andy and Opey out of the car!!!

RJ


AWWWW!!! WE BE CRAZY UP IN DIS HIZZOW! You ever seen da Revanent movie? Dat bear messed him up! Now we bout to mess dis bear up! GONE BE EATIN FRESH BEAR TONIGHT!!!

DONT NEED NO GUN! ILL GO ALL EDWARD SCISSOR HANDS ON DAT BEAR! BE SERVING HIM UP LIKE HIBACHI GRILL!


On the serious side, I don't expect it to be pretty. Even with all their training and mental preparation lots of soldiers and law enforcement choke the first time they're in a life or death situation. I don't think I will choke but I'm sure I'll panic at at least a little bit.


My experience has been the ones who talk the biggest game who have no experience usually fall very short of what they say they'll do when they get in an actual confrontation.

Last edited by Trent12; 04-21-2017 at 07:17 AM.
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  #374  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:13 AM
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My last movie had Roy Rogers fighting a guy with unlimited ammo in his SAA. I quit watching movies about that time because there is NO accurate firearms information contained therein. (Maybe even less than a current 'gun magazine'.)
Lets stick with guns and leave out the fiction, please.
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  #375  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:37 PM
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I must be unlucky because although I've never shot anyone I have held a loaded gun on 2 different people. I was ready to drop the hammer both times and pretty sure they new it and kept themselves alive by following my instructions.

Over penetration on hits as well as misses is a real concern in home defense situation, I'll take a 45acp or 40 anyday over more powerful guns for that reason.

On the drop test I'll say it again I was referring to the durability of semi-autos over wheelguns, I don't believe that even the most ardent revolver guy would not admit that they are more susceptible to damage by being thrown or dropped than an auto, not to mention an attacker can grasp the gun tight enough in a struggle to keep the cylinder from turning/gun from firing. Before any flips out over that statement one would assume that an attacker is physically more powerful than you or you wouldn't be trying to shoot him.
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  #376  
Old 04-21-2017, 02:54 PM
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I moved into an abandoned and very remote desert facility as care-taker about 16 years ago. In the first two weeks, I'd shot 18 packrats running around inside the place.....with a .41 Mag. Over-penetration was a problem of great magnitude even though the closest neighbor was ten pistol shots away. The log siding suffered.

As a deputy, I traced bullet holes from a TV in one mobile home through three more to find a one way out hole and talk to the kid that had been 'dry-firing' a Garand with AP ball ammo. There were eight walls, four kitchen cabinets, one with cereal boxes lined up, and it bounced off the top of the TV and bounced off the ninth wall and surprised a guy and his date.
(He plead to reckless endangerment and dodged the bigger felony rap the grand jury indicted him for.)

I tell in my book of a case in N. Sparks, NV where a guy turned loose a 117gr RN 9mm from a Calico pistol. It left his house through an outside wall, went through a pine board fence, through the adjoining house wall, through the chest of a one year old boy and into his mother's thigh. Both recovered, the shooter went to jail.

And a .22 Ely Match short that went THROUGH a floor and broke a hundred gallon tropical fish tank....

NEVER underestimate bullets!!

No doubt revolvers are more fragile, but that doesn't mean the shoot when they fail. They fail to shoot!

My first serious scrap as a deputy was with a guy named Hatfield that showed up to shoot his wife while I was standing by making sure he didn't. I saw the revolver in his pants pocket as he approached and when I tried to talk to him he jammed his hand in to get it. I grabbed the gun through his pants and held on long enough to lighten him up with a left-handed flashlight blow up side the head. He was trying to shoot it as I was trying to trip him while holding on for dear life.

I heard (MANY) stories of and from an old deputy that TWICE grabbed a top-break revolver and broke it open, which empties it, with a bad guy holding it on him. He was a jailer at 71 years old and could pick a quarter out of your hand before you could close your hand on it and do while staring you in the eye. He worked evening shift and me midnights and he'd win a quarter just about every shift change.
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Last edited by JBelk; 04-21-2017 at 03:07 PM.
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  #377  
Old 04-21-2017, 03:13 PM
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I have not tested a 45acp much however I've shot lots of 40 smith and Wesson through drywall, doors, 2x4's and appliances {165 and 180 flat points}, if anything it has a under penetration problem, takes very little to stop the 165. Back in the early 90's I dozed a small subdivision of houses down, it was in a rural area where there wasn't a problem with shooting, I had Glock 23 at the time, had a alot fun in them the day before I leveled them with a D7.
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  #378  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:12 PM
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I once looked down and there was a snake beside me and his head was a few inches from my foot. I had a 4 5/8" Ruger Blackhawk in my holster. It was a .45 Colt, with some 260 gr Keiths at about 950 fps or maybe 1,000 fps. I am a real chicken about snakes, so I instantly drew and shot the snake in the head, but the shock wave hit my foot hard and until I noticed I wasn't bleeding, I thought I'd shot myself in the foot.

My foot isn't a steel plate and if you'd felt that shock you would definitely be very comfortable with a comparatively slow .45.
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  #379  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:02 AM
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Oddly enough I got into a discussion over this topic last night at the local cigar lounge when a guy blankly stated that revolvers are more reliable than semi-auto's.
Funny that the same guys who claim that Smith revolvers are weak and have all kinds of issues when it comes to 44 and 357 magnums seem to think there absolutely unbreakable and 100% reliable in self defense scenario's.
Someone also claimed that the only reason police have went to auto's is because there terrible shot's and need hi capacity magazines to increase their odds of hitting someone.
I reminded them of the endurance tests.
Then brought up the military's choice of auto's for over 100 years, no one had an answer for that.
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  #380  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:59 AM
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The military tried to use revolvers and they tried to use GOOD autos, but found more tolerances are needed in dirty situations. Cops don't have that problem and revolvers ARE MORE RELIABLE than any auto ever made. That is simple fact that can't be denied. To be able to 'clear a bad round' and shoot a fresh one with one hand is a tremendous asset and was a serious consideration during the trials of the 1911 adoptions.

I spent a year in Korea in a front line artillery unit. Eight months of that was as battalion armorer. I've seen M-14s so caked with mud or dust they're hard to recognize. Even flap holster 1911s would become filthy after 14 days in the field.
Cops have to fear WD-40 and lint.

The post-war S&W 'short action' is in NO WAY subject to failure....IF humans will stay out of them!! I've seen a BUNCH of cop guns ruined by 'a trigger job' or 'action job' by some clown without a clue. (I consider a 'tuned' Smith to be ruined 99% of the time.)

The old Colts with the frame mounted rebound lever are much more fragile but very rarely become un-reliable to the point of being dangerous.

I was a deputy in the first half of the '70s. There were two autos carried in my department of about 80 armed deputies. We very honestly had deputies that I would NEVER trust with any auto, just like I saw Army trainees that should be cooks, clerks and cannon fodder. The level of training needed on autos is more than double the point, pull and shoot of revolvers.

Up until autos became the 'issue gun' of large departments cops got shot by bad guys but not so much themselves. I know THREE cops with Glock scars!!

High capacity breeds contempt of marksmanship. THAT is just human nature!
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