Not hating on the .45, but . . . - Page 2 - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handguns Category > Handgun Cartridges
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree197Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-11-2017, 07:23 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West coast central Florida
Posts: 3,565
Steel plates


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


Satisfying results with "smaller" calibers can be achieved with heavier/flat/large meplat bullets. Many people ask me what I'm loading my 357's with as they hit the steel & bowling pins with authority, it's actually my powder puff 148 gr double ended wad cutter 38 special load. I haven't gotten around to a 9mm 147 gr flat cast YET, but I think it would knock over your steel plate. I too prefer shooting a 45acp over full house 357's. NOT saying one is better, both can be very good.
BearBear likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:18 AM
Skipper's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: CA
Posts: 253
All arguments aside, watch how fast this perp goes down from a 45 ACP hit

Two go in, one runs out-Atlanta gun store robbery | The Firearms Forum
__________________
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."-- Abraham Lincoln
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:56 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West coast central Florida
Posts: 3,565
Great instincts & shot placement

But, I think at that (what?) 20' any # of calibers would have had the same result, with the right bullet.
One example doesn't prove anything. U tube probly has a video of someone going right down from a 22. There are no MAGIC bullets/calibers. Only good shooters. He should get the did society a favor award.
will52100 and BearBear like this.
Reply With Quote
 
  #24  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:59 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 589
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
You assume you know where the bullets went? Quaint.

No, you told me the guts. If the .357 bullet had gone through the heart or a major artery, you wouldn't have the anecdote to share.

You don't suppose, you assume again. Not doing so well here.

I don't assume, I suppose. It is a hypothetical since they were not actuially shot with a .45. Changing when dissatisfied with a product is common, whether there is a basis for it or not. That's why I keep changing cell phone carriers.

They were both exceptionally happy with their 1911s after the Training Officer and I (with some others) took them up to the range and ran them through a bunch of old gunsite and IPSC stuff.





Thank you for belaboring the obvious. Ought to get out in the real world and learn a few things.
If it is obvious, you do not need to remind me that my statement was my opinion.
__________________
BearBear

__________________________________________________ _____

In theory, theory and practice should be the same. In practice, they are not.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:16 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: SoCal
Posts: 589
Knocking down steel plates has little to do with wound channel size. I remember when I was in High School and they had the old paper straws, I would amaze my friends by jamming the straw an inch into an apple. The trick was speed. If you were too slow, the straw would crumple but if fast, it would drive into the apple. I think even a bigger, heavier straw would have crumples.
But the wound channel issue was simply interesting to me. Certainly one is not under-gunned with a .45. I have two in strategic places in my house/garage/basement. I also have a .357, a .44 special and a 9mm at other locations and do not feel any are bad SD weapons to fight my way to my long guns. I do believe all are nearly equivalent in wounding capability and the choice of weapons depends, for me, on other criteria and I now that the effectiveness of each is directly related to shot placement, not size of hole.
__________________
BearBear

__________________________________________________ _____

In theory, theory and practice should be the same. In practice, they are not.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 23
.45" is .097" bigger than .357. How does the smaller diameter create a larger hole. It'n not physically possible.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:28 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,918
Bullet expansion. A 9mm has to expand to be as big as a .45 before expansion. Of course the .45 can expand, too....
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:34 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: So. Ca.
Posts: 9
Bigger hole yes, safer no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
The .357 produces a bigger hole than the .45. The reason the .357 is more effective than the .45 has nothing to do with hydrodynamic shock or energy dump. The reason is that it makes a bigger hole.


If you trust the calculations of permanent wound channel produced by the Beartooth bullet ballistic calculator, that is the result. It makes sense because the hydraulic cutting from the high speed fluids jetting from the meplat is what opens a wound channel. That depends on the speed of the bullet.
If you take a .45 hard cast flat point bullet with a .30 meplat at 230 grains and 900 fps, you get a .675 permanent wound channel. If you have a .357 cast with a .30 meplat at 124 grains going 1400 fps, you get a 1.05 wound channel. I use the same meplat because the .357 mag can handle up to a .357 meplat while a .45 can't be so aggressive for feeding issues. A .357 sig would likely need a smaller meplat.
If you used an expanding bullet that expands 150% of the bullet diameter, a .357 would have a .52 meplat while a .45 would have a .67 meplat. With the same velocities above, the results would be a 1.82 wound channel for the .357 and a 1.51 wound channel for the .45. Ergo, the .357 crates a bigger wound channel and is more effective in disabling an attacker. A 9mm at 1200 fps is almost identical to the .45. Penetration for all should be sufficient.
Therefore, the 9mm or the .357 seem superior choices over the .45 for SD.
However, the .40 135 gr at 1300 fps and a .28 FP (again, feeding issues) hardcast would yield a 0.91 channel and if opened in an hp to .60 would result in a 1.95 channel, beating them all.
Of course, the opening of the hps would dramatically slow the bullets and those with greater mass would retain more velocity through the target so that there would be a cross-over where the heavier bullet was going faster and creating more damage. That is likely toward the end of travel.
I had always disparaged the .40 as a poor compromise between the 9mm and .45 but am reconsidering its effectiveness as a SD caliber. There is likely more to the decision to use the caliber in LE than simple whim.

All the same, I love shooting my .45s and they are part of my SD tools. It's just they are not the best choice.
The problem I have with the .357 is that it goes and goes and goes. Im not going to be using a pistol cartridge to shoot something 200 yds away. I want knockdown power but not something that requires I know the background of everything miles away. If you shoot a .357 outside of a house, it can go completely through it if it doesnt hit enough wood. I told my brother to load his .357 with glaser so it won't be as big a danger to his neighbors. I like the 45. Enough knock down without the extended distance of a .357
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:37 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: CT
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
The .357 produces a bigger hole than the .45. The reason the .357 is more effective than the .45 has nothing to do with hydrodynamic shock or energy dump. The reason is that it makes a bigger hole.


All the same, I love shooting my .45s and they are part of my SD tools. It's just they are not the best choice.
OK take a look at Skippers video on page 2. A 357 today is a good pocket gun but when you have to shoot fast and hit hard you can't beat a big bore auto. Nuff said about this nonsense.
will52100 likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:45 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Western States
Posts: 132
First of all, nothing said here or anywhere else will ever settle the argument between the 45 cal vs. 9mm, 357, et al!
But it might provide some light to THIS discussion to review how the 45 cal cartridge initially came about. The US
Cavalry needed a cartridge with a bullet large enough to drop large cavalry horses (I've been told there were (Morgans sp?)).
Thus the US Cavalry adopted the 45 Colt. Later due to ammunition and budget considerations and Remington revolvers,
the 45 (short) was adopted, with roughly the same ballistic qualities.

After the US military initial involvement in the Moro Rebellion in the Philippine Islands, our military wanted something
more than their double action revolvers chambered in 38 spl. John Browning not only came up with the gun (1911) but
the cartridge as well: 45 ACP! The results is the larger bullet dropped the Moros as well as causing more bleeding
regardless of how they wrapped themselves in garments. Something the 38s didn't do very well.

The 1911 in one variation or another, and one manufacturer or another, as is the 45 ACP cartridge are both
still around today, 2017. And just as deadly, or possibly even more deadly when loaded with modern bullets
and powders.

Yet, as with any firearm, it's reputation often rest with those who shoot/use the firearm. And as typical, those
that don't like the noise, recoil, muzzle blast, or weight, or whatever will opt for something else. Be my guest.
But for the rest of the shooting world, the guns and the cartridge work just fine. And we can definitely shoot
the guns accurately!
JBelk likes this.

Last edited by travelr47; 01-11-2017 at 01:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:52 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Owensboro,Kentucky
Posts: 160
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
I compared flat points to flat points and expanding to expanding.
The variables are meplat and velocity. When comparing meplats, the caliber of the bullet is irrelevant. So two bullets with .30 meplats going the same speed are going to make the same diameter wound channel regardless whether one is a .357 and the other is a .45. However, the heavier bullet will retain velocity better and go deeper. But generally a .357 will be be going faster. Therefore, it will have higher pressure fluids jetting off the meplat and cut deeper, making a bigger hole than the slower bullet.

Maybe y'all believe the wound channel is always the bullet diameter but, if that's the case, you shouldn't care what nose shape or meplat size is employed. If the wound channel is larger than the bullet diameter, what causes that? It has to be the force of the fluids shooting to the sides of the nose and the faster the bullet, the more the pressure and the faster the fluids.

The .45 will still slow more slowly and may or may not penetrate deeper, depending on the initial speed differential.

As far as expanding bullets go, I rarely see them with a rounded nose after expansion. They usually have a central indent and a flat angle to their nose. Most calculations suggest using the expanded meplat diameter. Of course, that does not take into account the slowing that takes place while deforming the bullet and wound diameters are over-stated.

However, all of the wound channel diameters are only fractions of inches in difference
While 38 caliber revolver bullets would not take out Moros in the Samar area the big fat 45 layed them out and for good! I will take my 45 and you can take your chances.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 01-11-2017, 01:56 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,918
Bear Bear-- Would it be predictable that a bullet calculator invented by a bullet company would come up with a reason to buy their bullets?
unclepaddy likes this.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:03 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 71
My biggest complaint about the 45acp is not being able to hold more rounds. They are my favorite gun though
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:41 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Parker Colorado
Posts: 2,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
Knocking down steel plates has little to do with wound channel size. I remember when I was in High School and they had the old paper straws, I would amaze my friends by jamming the straw an inch into an apple. The trick was speed. If you were too slow, the straw would crumple but if fast, it would drive into the apple. I think even a bigger, heavier straw would have crumples.
But the wound channel issue was simply interesting to me. Certainly one is not under-gunned with a .45. I have two in strategic places in my house/garage/basement. I also have a .357, a .44 special and a 9mm at other locations and do not feel any are bad SD weapons to fight my way to my long guns. I do believe all are nearly equivalent in wounding capability and the choice of weapons depends, for me, on other criteria and I now that the effectiveness of each is directly related to shot placement, not size of hole.
You are correct on the steel plate/human flesh comparison however when a guy is shooting them at relatively close range and they don't fall yet can be pushed over with your pinky finger it doesn't do much for your confidence in the cartridge.
Add to that all the police reports where bad guys are shooting each other and survive multiple hits and it seems to add credence to the argument.
It just occurred to me that with all the murders in the Chicago area they must be better shots these days.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:49 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 63
45 Versus the 375

Having used the 375 H&H on Water Buffalo and mostly the 458 Win mag I would be inclined to disagree, the 458 wins hands down. The 458 has the ability to smash bone more so than the 375 H7H, I once shot a buffalo(458) with a texas heart shot he run another 20 feet and was spewing ****. Never had one run from the 458Win Mag.
It has been said that the 458 is under capacity, but I never found it so, though it does need to be loaded to about 2150FPS with the 500 grain pill. I suspect the Australian made powders have a lot to do with that ,Hodgson4895 to you guys.
Australian water buffalo are much easier to shoot than your cape buffalo as the have no enemies except humans even the big crocks tend to leave them alone.
The Cape buffalo always faces you head on denying a the shooter a side shot at the front shoulder you have to hit something vital first shot or you are history whereas all the water buffalo I have shot casually turn their head to check you out always presenting a shoulder shot with Both shoulders smashed they are going no where. I do not think the cape buffalo is any tougher than the water buffalo just has the killer mentality.
NOPE Bigger is better.
Cheers Vaughn
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 01-11-2017, 06:00 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: West coast central Florida
Posts: 3,565
Wink true enough, A CENTURY AGO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryLee View Post
While 38 caliber revolver bullets would not take out Moros in the Samar area the big fat 45 layed them out and for good! I will take my 45 and you can take your chances.
With improvements in powders & bullets???
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 01-11-2017, 10:46 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryLee View Post
While 38 caliber revolver bullets would not take out Moros in the Samar area the big fat 45 layed them out and for good! I will take my 45 and you can take your chances.
That was the 38 Long Colt which failed so miserably, and the reason for which the far superior .38 Special was designed to replace it.

No doubt the failure of the .38LC was in mind when developing the 45acp, but by the time it was issued to US troops in the Philippines, there wasn't much Moro action going on.

Bullet design have changed a little in the last century since then.
Tree Top likes this.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:33 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 337
Quote:
Originally Posted by carracer View Post
.45" is .097" bigger than .357. How does the smaller diameter create a larger hole. It'n not physically possible.
Bullet expansion by mushroom effect
__________________
The government is not going to ban firearms, they are going to ban gunpowder and ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 01-12-2017, 04:20 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 567
I have always had great respect for the .357 Mag. but not in the 125 grain loads. I have seen first hand how they fail to penetrate on humans. The same for the 180 grain in a .40. The shootings I have first hand experience with involving .45's, were much more to my liking. Bottom line is, if the bullet doesn't get to where it has to go, it is MUCH less effective. I have not seen that problem with the .45 or the heavier .357's. I have with just about every other common defense caliber.
There HAS to be a reason everyone uses the .45ACP to compare their favorite cartridge to.

Last edited by kudu40; 01-12-2017 at 04:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 01-12-2017, 04:31 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: n.y. state
Posts: 19
The long range pistol shooters jacked up the .357 magnum with the .357 maximum to knock over the longer range targets. The .357 mag. is a great cartridge but if I had one shot to put down a perpetrator I would want to be holding a 45 acp. If your looking for a self defense caliber I want the biggest and heaviest bullet available at lower speed for penetration and knock down power. If I'm shooting at something a longer ways away I'll get a rifle.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
.45 ACP in .45 Colt die? unclepaddy Handloading Equipment 17 09-18-2014 02:18 PM
9mm vs. .45 ACP pricing nenun Handgun Cartridges 26 07-28-2014 04:31 AM
.45 Cowboy Special CoyoteJoe Cowboy Loads and Guns 36 10-22-2009 04:52 PM
.45 Colt stalker76z Handguns 19 07-09-2008 07:57 PM
.45 2 7/8" Sharps Case Thickness? Arctosman Handloading Procedures/Practices 7 05-06-2008 08:49 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:43 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1