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  #1  
Old 01-09-2017, 10:23 PM
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Not hating on the .45, but . . .


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The .357 produces a bigger hole than the .45. The reason the .357 is more effective than the .45 has nothing to do with hydrodynamic shock or energy dump. The reason is that it makes a bigger hole.


If you trust the calculations of permanent wound channel produced by the Beartooth bullet ballistic calculator, that is the result. It makes sense because the hydraulic cutting from the high speed fluids jetting from the meplat is what opens a wound channel. That depends on the speed of the bullet.
If you take a .45 hard cast flat point bullet with a .30 meplat at 230 grains and 900 fps, you get a .675 permanent wound channel. If you have a .357 cast with a .30 meplat at 124 grains going 1400 fps, you get a 1.05 wound channel. I use the same meplat because the .357 mag can handle up to a .357 meplat while a .45 can't be so aggressive for feeding issues. A .357 sig would likely need a smaller meplat.
If you used an expanding bullet that expands 150% of the bullet diameter, a .357 would have a .52 meplat while a .45 would have a .67 meplat. With the same velocities above, the results would be a 1.82 wound channel for the .357 and a 1.51 wound channel for the .45. Ergo, the .357 crates a bigger wound channel and is more effective in disabling an attacker. A 9mm at 1200 fps is almost identical to the .45. Penetration for all should be sufficient.
Therefore, the 9mm or the .357 seem superior choices over the .45 for SD.
However, the .40 135 gr at 1300 fps and a .28 FP (again, feeding issues) hardcast would yield a 0.91 channel and if opened in an hp to .60 would result in a 1.95 channel, beating them all.
Of course, the opening of the hps would dramatically slow the bullets and those with greater mass would retain more velocity through the target so that there would be a cross-over where the heavier bullet was going faster and creating more damage. That is likely toward the end of travel.
I had always disparaged the .40 as a poor compromise between the 9mm and .45 but am reconsidering its effectiveness as a SD caliber. There is likely more to the decision to use the caliber in LE than simple whim.

All the same, I love shooting my .45s and they are part of my SD tools. It's just they are not the best choice.
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  #2  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
All the same, I love shooting my .45s and they are part of my SD tools. It's just they are not the best choice.
Your opinion.

I've had two friends on duty shot by .357, one point blank in the guts. Both recovered and went back on duty. Both retired their Model 66s and went to Colt1911s in .45acp

Last edited by rojkoh; 01-10-2017 at 03:09 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:09 AM
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Sometimes there is more to a bullets effectiveness than what can be explained through mathematics or test media. I consider the .45 a gold standard. When comparing different rounds or bullets they are generally stacked up against the .45.
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  #4  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:09 AM
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Agree on diameter. Prefer 45 Colt.

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  #5  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:22 AM
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RNFP .45 Colt 250 gr. moving about 950 fps. does what's needed and been doing so since the 1800's. One of, if not, my favorite bullets. Comfortable to shoot and accurate. Not putting down the 357 magnum as I have two of them.
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  #6  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
The .357 produces a bigger hole than the .45. The reason the .357 is more effective than the .45 has nothing to do with hydrodynamic shock or energy dump. The reason is that it makes a bigger hole.


If you trust the calculations of permanent wound channel produced by the Beartooth bullet ballistic calculator, that is the result. It makes sense because the hydraulic cutting from the high speed fluids jetting from the meplat is what opens a wound channel. That depends on the speed of the bullet.
If you take a .45 hard cast flat point bullet with a .30 meplat at 230 grains and 900 fps, you get a .675 permanent wound channel. If you have a .357 cast with a .30 meplat at 124 grains going 1400 fps, you get a 1.05 wound channel. I use the same meplat because the .357 mag can handle up to a .357 meplat while a .45 can't be so aggressive for feeding issues. A .357 sig would likely need a smaller meplat.
If you used an expanding bullet that expands 150% of the bullet diameter, a .357 would have a .52 meplat while a .45 would have a .67 meplat. With the same velocities above, the results would be a 1.82 wound channel for the .357 and a 1.51 wound channel for the .45. Ergo, the .357 crates a bigger wound channel and is more effective in disabling an attacker. A 9mm at 1200 fps is almost identical to the .45. Penetration for all should be sufficient.
Therefore, the 9mm or the .357 seem superior choices over the .45 for SD.
However, the .40 135 gr at 1300 fps and a .28 FP (again, feeding issues) hardcast would yield a 0.91 channel and if opened in an hp to .60 would result in a 1.95 channel, beating them all.
Of course, the opening of the hps would dramatically slow the bullets and those with greater mass would retain more velocity through the target so that there would be a cross-over where the heavier bullet was going faster and creating more damage. That is likely toward the end of travel.
I had always disparaged the .40 as a poor compromise between the 9mm and .45 but am reconsidering its effectiveness as a SD caliber. There is likely more to the decision to use the caliber in LE than simple whim.

All the same, I love shooting my .45s and they are part of my SD tools. It's just they are not the best choice.
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  #7  
Old 01-10-2017, 04:41 AM
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.357 bullets get bigger, .45 bullets never get smaller.
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  #8  
Old 01-10-2017, 05:19 AM
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I just checked a handout (over 10 years old) that I received in a handgun defense course. With quality bullets, the .357 (125 gr), .40 S&W, and .45 ACP all had one shot stops in the 90 to 95% range. The better 9mm (115gr JHP +P) bullets were about 90%. Of course bullet improvements have been made since then, but I don' feel under-gunned with any of these.
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  #9  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:03 AM
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An expanding bullet generally ends up in a round-nose shape, which is the least effective shape for wounding. One of the reasons that there is not really a direct comparison between an expanding bullet, and a flat-nosed bullet that does not expand.

So that is a major flaw in the comparison.
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  #10  
Old 01-10-2017, 07:10 AM
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I'm thinking about all the stuff I've read and used related to drag and drag coefficient. Drag is usually not considered by most, because it's complex, but it's drag that does the energy transfer to any medium with elastic properties.

For any form, drag increases exponentially with increasing diameter. Unless physics has changed recently, it's been a well documented effect for a few thousand years.

Now, a .357 pushing a 110gr HP as fast as it will go might top a .45 poking along as wound cavities go, but if speeds are equal, and bullet designs are equal, and that can easily be the case, the .357 is not going to be the winner.

Point being, comparisons need to be well defined to make a valid statement or comparison.
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  #11  
Old 01-10-2017, 09:26 AM
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Think when this was asked years ago Jeff Cooper answered with statistics. Out of the shootings various police departments across the country was involved in, those who used 9mm were more often sued by the perp. His conclusion was those using .45s had fewer suits because the gobblins were less likely to survive.
I miss Jeffs reasoning!
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  #12  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
An expanding bullet generally ends up in a round-nose shape, which is the least effective shape for wounding. One of the reasons that there is not really a direct comparison between an expanding bullet, and a flat-nosed bullet that does not expand.

So that is a major flaw in the comparison.
I compared flat points to flat points and expanding to expanding.
The variables are meplat and velocity. When comparing meplats, the caliber of the bullet is irrelevant. So two bullets with .30 meplats going the same speed are going to make the same diameter wound channel regardless whether one is a .357 and the other is a .45. However, the heavier bullet will retain velocity better and go deeper. But generally a .357 will be be going faster. Therefore, it will have higher pressure fluids jetting off the meplat and cut deeper, making a bigger hole than the slower bullet.

Maybe y'all believe the wound channel is always the bullet diameter but, if that's the case, you shouldn't care what nose shape or meplat size is employed. If the wound channel is larger than the bullet diameter, what causes that? It has to be the force of the fluids shooting to the sides of the nose and the faster the bullet, the more the pressure and the faster the fluids.

The .45 will still slow more slowly and may or may not penetrate deeper, depending on the initial speed differential.

As far as expanding bullets go, I rarely see them with a rounded nose after expansion. They usually have a central indent and a flat angle to their nose. Most calculations suggest using the expanded meplat diameter. Of course, that does not take into account the slowing that takes place while deforming the bullet and wound diameters are over-stated.

However, all of the wound channel diameters are only fractions of inches in difference
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2017, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Your opinion.

I've had two friends on duty shot by .357, one point blank in the guts. Both recovered and went back on duty. Both retired their Model 66s and went to Colt1911s in .45acp
Good for them the BG's shot placement was so lousy. I suppose if they had been shot in the guts with .45s, they would have survived and would have retired their .45s and changed to something else.

By the way, unless I attribute thoughts to others, everything I post is my opinion.
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  #14  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:12 PM
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[QUOTE=MontyF;1459218]Sometimes there is more to a bullets effectiveness than what can be explained through mathematics or test media{/QUOTE]

The math answers, etc etc are basically mental masturbation to sell a product typically most prevalent in gun rags.


The FBI is the only known agency that actually takes the time and spends the money to use properly prepared test media including the use of simulated bones and cartridge. People on Youtube don't have that kind of budget.
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Old 01-10-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by MontyF View Post
Think when this was asked years ago Jeff Cooper answered with statistics. Out of the shootings various police departments across the country was involved in, those who used 9mm were more often sued by the perp. His conclusion was those using .45s had fewer suits because the gobblins were less likely to survive.
I miss Jeffs reasoning!
Didn't always agree with the man (especially about the Bren 10 and the Scout rifle of 30 years ago), but he was something. Mike Horne and Mike Harries always came up with things they wanted to try and if it worked, they took it to gunsite.


Frankly, I think Jeff would be seriously frustrated at what goes on these days. He never thought much of the "wonder 9" and it's why the Mozambique drill was invented.
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  #16  
Old 01-10-2017, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
Good for them the BG's shot placement was so lousy.
You assume you know where the bullets went? Quaint.

Quote:
I suppose if they had been shot in the guts with .45s, they would have survived and would have retired their .45s and changed to something else.
You don't suppose, you assume again. Not doing so well here.

They were both exceptionally happy with their 1911s after the Training Officer and I (with some others) took them up to the range and ran them through a bunch of old gunsite and IPSC stuff.


Quote:
By the way, unless I attribute thoughts to others, everything I post is my opinion.

Thank you for belaboring the obvious. Ought to get out in the real world and learn a few things.
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  #17  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:06 AM
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Originally Posted by BearBear View Post
The .357 (.357 in) produces a bigger hole than the .45 (.451 in).
yeah sometimes, I've seen some .22lr (.22 in) make larger holes than a 9mm (0.355 in). If you want big holes then get large diameter ammo.
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  #18  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:16 AM
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Totally anecdotal and may not be relevant but the reason I carry a 45 is what can be observed shooting steel plates, smaller calibers look like toy guns on the heavier plates, 45acp knocks them down with authority.
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  #19  
Old 01-11-2017, 04:37 AM
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Wink Everyone has an opininion

It's not the size of the hole, it's the motion of the ocean. You are entitled to your opinions. You could also ride a rice grinder motorcycle up to a biker bar, stroll up to the bar & order a cosmo. Know your audience.
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  #20  
Old 01-11-2017, 05:18 AM
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Clang, clang, clang, "next target..."

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Totally anecdotal and may not be relevant but the reason I carry a 45 is what can be observed shooting steel plates, smaller calibers look like toy guns on the heavier plates, 45acp knocks them down with authority.
First pistol competition I entered, first target plate would not fall despite three loud/visible hits. RO says "You got it, next target". That's at 15' with 9mm UMC 115gr FMJ. Everyone else was shooting .45 ACP that day, and all knocked that plate down with one shot on it. I now only use a .45 when I want to kill steel plates.

Not hating on the .357, but I find the .45 more pleasant to shoot.
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