1986 FBI shootout in Florida - Page 2 - Shooters Forum
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  #21  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnCruel View Post
I recently read an interesting article (Is .40 S&W Dead?) that discussed this very topic. The author's conclusion is that analysis of this firefight led the FBI to adopt a standardized test protocol for ammunition, but then the test protocol led ammunition manufacturers to improve their products to meet the requirements. Over time, the FBI's dalliance with 10mm and .40 S&W has become unnecessary as 9mm has evolved into a more effective caliber.
The best 9mm is definitely better, no question.
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  #22  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:22 PM
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Somebody is going to have to do some more talking to convince me that 9mm is more effective than 10mm. Am I missing something here?
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  #23  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William A. Reed View Post
Somebody is going to have to do some more talking to convince me that 9mm is more effective than 10mm. Am I missing something here?
No one has made that claim.
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  #24  
Old 02-15-2017, 09:08 PM
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The Fed's edge, if you can call it that, was that when you rob a bank, you have to observe normal banking hours. So they fought it out in daylight. I've watched the movie Patriot's Day, twice, and I didn't fall asleep once. Shooting it out in the dark really throws a monkey wrench into these calculations. Hollywood's exaggerations or not, that was one incredible cluster flub.

Last edited by carpooler; 02-15-2017 at 09:10 PM. Reason: diction
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  #25  
Old 02-16-2017, 12:11 AM
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Showed what in a ballistic gelatin test?

I'm sorry for my failing memory but was there not some information (propaganda) from ballistic gelatin test that showed 9mm wound channel etc. with the newfangled bullets was comparable to the other calibers we are discussing? In these test, wonder if the bullets ,other than 9mm, were state of the art? My time machine is broken. Wonder what the spiel will be when we get the next generation of, "What were we thinking..." in twenty-five years? Is somebody urinating on our back and telling us it's raining? If 9mm is such hot stuff what happened to 357 SIG in this dance?

Last edited by William A. Reed; 02-16-2017 at 12:19 AM.
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  #26  
Old 02-16-2017, 03:43 AM
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There is always mention that new bullet technology has greatly improved the 9mm to where "it is now the equal of the .40 and .45".
Have not bullets in .40 and .45 also seen improvement ? Or have improvements in ammo technology only helped the 9mm round ?
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  #27  
Old 02-16-2017, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandog View Post
There is always mention that new bullet technology has greatly improved the 9mm to where "it is now the equal of the .40 and .45".
Have not bullets in .40 and .45 also seen improvement ? Or have improvements in ammo technology only helped the 9mm round ?
Apparently the top end self defense bullets have allowed the 9mm to pass the FBI required tests, this was not the case in the past. Balisticaly in my opinion and experience the 45 has a ballistic advantage in its best loading, but this needs to be balanced with the added magazine capacity of the 9mm and lower recoil.
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  #28  
Old 02-16-2017, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandog View Post
There is always mention that new bullet technology has greatly improved the 9mm to where "it is now the equal of the .40 and .45".
Have not bullets in .40 and .45 also seen improvement ? Or have improvements in ammo technology only helped the 9mm round ?
the big difference is the 9mm is capable of being loaded to higher pressures and thus higher velocities.

IIRC, there are studies done that rank the 9mm +P+ load as second only to the 357mag 125gr in one shot stop rating. Something like 93-94% of the time.
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  #29  
Old 02-16-2017, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Yeah bullets are a LOT better. Are they good enough? I don't know. But for sure they are a lot better.

The Gold Dot, in particular, is a very interesting 9mm bullet and I have known people who put them through hogs with massive damage.
Trick is, shot placement under pressure. Still not enough training going on for this one.
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  #30  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandog View Post
There is always mention that new bullet technology has greatly improved the 9mm to where "it is now the equal of the .40 and .45".
Have not bullets in .40 and .45 also seen improvement ? Or have improvements in ammo technology only helped the 9mm round ?
They all have been improved. The gap between them is still the same. .40 and .45 are still what they were, which is marginally better than 9mm. The only difference is that 9mm can pass the FBI/Govt. tests for a service pistol now. Before it couldn't, so they used the bigger pills. The gap between cartridge performance is the same as always.
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  #31  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:13 AM
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Getting Smaller....Flunks what?

Looks like over time we are getting smaller. There was a day when 380 was, many thought, a bare minimum for personal protection. Next came the dramatic, or so it was claimed, new improved bullets. Next came where most everybody offered a 380 handgun. All this was going on while the same line was used for 9mm. Better bullets. What happened to all the glory heaped onto the 40 cal. Wonder what comes next. Into the future: Would it be that the new bullets failed in the field. Or, we found the heavy high velocity bullets to be vastly superior in the field. The gun magazines will get on the bandwagon. I wonder who starts all this stuff. Will it be that ,with improved bullets, 32ACP is the answer? This whole deal flunks the smell test. Meanwhile, I'm putting the 40cal. barrel back into my G23-no more 9mm SIG.
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  #32  
Old 02-18-2017, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by William A. Reed View Post
Looks like over time we are getting smaller. There was a day when 380 was, many thought, a bare minimum for personal protection. Next came the dramatic, or so it was claimed, new improved bullets. Next came where most everybody offered a 380 handgun. All this was going on while the same line was used for 9mm. Better bullets. What happened to all the glory heaped onto the 40 cal. Wonder what comes next. Into the future: Would it be that the new bullets failed in the field. Or, we found the heavy high velocity bullets to be vastly superior in the field. The gun magazines will get on the bandwagon. I wonder who starts all this stuff. Will it be that ,with improved bullets, 32ACP is the answer? This whole deal flunks the smell test. Meanwhile, I'm putting the 40cal. barrel back into my G23-no more 9mm SIG.

William,
I think your perspective is spot on. The sizzle of the "hot new thing" is always louder than the plain facts. Well said.
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  #33  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Trent12 View Post
They all have been improved. The gap between them is still the same. .40 and .45 are still what they were, which is marginally better than 9mm. The only difference is that 9mm can pass the FBI/Govt. tests for a service pistol now. Before it couldn't, so they used the bigger pills. The gap between cartridge performance is the same as always.
You honestly think "requirements" are always realistic? The move to 9 was political for the military and since it's easier to go to 9mm (it is easier to shoot), that requirements can't be changed? They often are.
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  #34  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:29 PM
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What's best...Let's look and see

The naysayers have already gathered for the GD2 rounds. One of aspect that is showing up is failure of the GD2 bullet. I cannot testify to any of that-just don't know. Speer's ballistic data has, for me, put the 9mm at the bottom of the list. Also, it looks like this 9mm handgun is nothing more than a self-loading +P revolver. I did go back to the original 40caliber barrel in the G23 with Winchester Supreme Elite PDX1's 180 gr. cartridges. That's my vote. If some of those folks shot more that once a year perhaps they would have made a different selection.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 02-19-2017 at 07:43 AM.
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  #35  
Old 02-19-2017, 06:51 AM
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Hmmm... a self loading +P 38 Special. What an insightful way to put it. But then again, I think a Smith model 10 with a 4" bull barrel and 158gr pure lead hollow points is a pretty good (if dated) solution to the problem.

The problem with police agency's picking a single gun/ammo for their officers is nothing is just right for everybody. I have pounded on the FBI some in this thread but, to be fair, the most effective FBI agents may simply be lousy with guns and fighting in general. The FBI has set itself up as a national police force which we do not need. So in the end the FBI and others end up with the lowest common denominator in guns/ammo. Not what is best but what is barely adequate that the broadest variety of agents can carry and shoot. It's not the right way to do it but it is more right than giving them guns/ammo that most of them cannot effectively carry or shoot (which they did and it's pretty stupid).

Skill with guns will always trump caliber. So while the losers cry for bigger bullets and bigger magazines they ignore the need for training in gunfighting. So starting with some version of a +P seems ideal to me. Getting good at gunfighting skills does not call for more power or even for more than a 6 shot revolver. The disconnect I have is that agents/LE who are able to master more significant guns/cartridges should be encouraged to do so. It will always be a balance between the size/weight of the firearm, diameter/power of the cartridge and the terminal effect of the bullet. And that has fueled billions of words on the internet.

Personally I am a 45 acp guy. I have studied terminal ballistics at an amateur level for nearly 40 years and just can't get around the qualities it offers. But a personal choice is light years away from what is good for everyone else. IMO.
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  #36  
Old 02-19-2017, 03:46 PM
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Another Traumatic Learning Experience?

This is kinda of an interesting thread. We are speaking our mind on our preferences for handgun caliber. The other end of this thread has to do with making the decision by the FBI. In the end the FBI is responsible for the decision to go back to 9mm. I don't have much of a feel for what went into this decision. There is an old saying about a camel being a horse designed by a committee. Hope this decision doesn't turn into another traumatic learning experience.
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