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  #1  
Old 01-31-2017, 07:33 AM
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1986 FBI shootout in Florida


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Before deciding on a personal defense cartridge, you need to go to youtube and enter "1986 FBI shootout in Florida". There is a lot of video footage and reenactment videos based upon personal accounts. There were eight FBI agents and two bad guys. The FBI was shooting 38+P revolvers and 9mm semi-automatics at first and then one shoot gun at the end. The bad guys were shooting 357 mag revolvers and one 223 rifle. One bad guy took 4 hits and the other bad guy took 6 hits. No quarter was asked and none was given. Be warranted, some videos are brutal.

It was this gunfight that made the FBI change to 40 S&W. The FBI determined 9mm and 38+P were not the most effective cartridges for stopping an armed and determined person.

Recently the FBI has decided to return to the 9mm. In the FBI report, the decision was based upon several factors. 1. It was decided that shoot placement was more important than any other factor. The 9mm has less recoil and their agents can put more shots on target. 2. Gun fight analysis shows that only about 15% of the shots fired by agents are actually hitting the bad guys. 9mm hand guns hold more cartridges and therefore give more hits on target. 3. Cost. 40 S&W guns wear out faster than 9mm guns and 9mm cartridges cost less.

Disclaimer, I have not actually read the FBI report on their decision to return to 9mm. My information is based upon video discussions of the report. Someone that has read the report may want to give their view point.

The 1986 FBI shootout has made me rethink my personal choice for concealed carry. I no longer carry my 38 S&W airlight revolver. Now I carry a 357 S&W model 66 with 2 inch barrel or my Colt Commander 45.

Also, the videos shows how brave the FBI agents were. They stood their ground against superior fire power and fought to the end.
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  #2  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:39 AM
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Modern advances in how we manufacture pistol bullets has improved ballistics far more in the last few years. A 9mm is far more effective now than it was back in the 80's.

Carry what makes you comfortable. I carry a .40 S&W. I don't feel any less safe with the 9mm on my hip, I just prefer the slightly larger bullet.


The same people who talk about caliber superiority in pistols do it in rifles. The guy who says a .45 Auto is a "one shot fight stopper" says that a 5.56x45 is gunna take multiple shots to put down a target. A 5.56x45 has much more "fight stopping" ability than any of the big 3 pistol cartridges.

Use whatever floats your boat.
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  #3  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:41 AM
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Yeah bullets are a LOT better. Are they good enough? I don't know. But for sure they are a lot better.

The Gold Dot, in particular, is a very interesting 9mm bullet and I have known people who put them through hogs with massive damage.
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  #4  
Old 01-31-2017, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
Before deciding on a personal defense cartridge, you need to go to youtube and enter "1986 FBI shootout in Florida". There is a lot of video footage and reenactment videos based upon personal accounts. There were eight FBI agents and two bad guys. The FBI was shooting 38+P revolvers and 9mm semi-automatics at first and then one shoot gun at the end. The bad guys were shooting 357 mag revolvers and one 223 rifle. One bad guy took 4 hits and the other bad guy took 6 hits. No quarter was asked and none was given. Be warranted, some videos are brutal.

It was this gunfight that made the FBI change to 40 S&W. The FBI determined 9mm and 38+P were not the most effective cartridges for stopping an armed and determined person.

Recently the FBI has decided to return to the 9mm. In the FBI report, the decision was based upon several factors. 1. It was decided that shoot placement was more important than any other factor. The 9mm has less recoil and their agents can put more shots on target. 2. Gun fight analysis shows that only about 15% of the shots fired by agents are actually hitting the bad guys. 9mm hand guns hold more cartridges and therefore give more hits on target. 3. Cost. 40 S&W guns wear out faster than 9mm guns and 9mm cartridges cost less.

Disclaimer, I have not actually read the FBI report on their decision to return to 9mm. My information is based upon video discussions of the report. Someone that has read the report may want to give their view point.

The 1986 FBI shootout has made me rethink my personal choice for concealed carry. I no longer carry my 38 S&W airlight revolver. Now I carry a 357 S&W model 66 with 2 inch barrel or my Colt Commander 45.

Also, the videos shows how brave the FBI agents were. They stood their ground against superior fire power and fought to the end.

The shootout caused the FBI to change their test and they adopted the 10mm "light" basically the 10mm loaded with a 180 grain bullet under 1000 fps. The 40 S&W was introduced after the FBI choose the 10mm.

The FBI has since went back to 45 ACP's, 40 S&W and now back to 9mm.
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  #5  
Old 01-31-2017, 09:04 AM
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https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/281-...rain-p-hp.html

This is a good load for a 9mm pistol. It's a hot 124gr load that out of a 4" 9mm (Glock 19) will match or at least get close to a 3" .357magnum load. It's what I keep loaded in the one 9mm pistol I keep. I also use gold dots in my .40, .45auto, and 6.8 SPC rifle.
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  #6  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:17 AM
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The FBI went to the Model 13, 3" .357 in the mid '70s. I have one. I thought they went to the M39 S&W after that but don't know.
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  #7  
Old 01-31-2017, 11:50 AM
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The government spent some serious money on the "study" that got them to re-think and re-arm. As posted, the 10 mm made the cut for ballistics, but didn't work for the "agency".

US armed forces do the same thing (with different criteria). Police do it too. Money is part of it (lowest bidder? I hope not!).

My personal armament is dictated from a totally different viewpoint. Is still a balancing act though.

Wonder what off-duty everyone carries? Shorts, T-shirt, grocery store thing?

Cheezywan
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  #8  
Old 01-31-2017, 12:08 PM
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"It was decided that shoot placement was more important than any other factor. The 9mm has less recoil and their agents can put more shots on target"

It took a study to figure that out.
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  #9  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:00 PM
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I agree HarrySS. The FBI has agents of all different sizes though. Cops, military, etc. the same. "One size fits all" is NOT what I do.
"One size fits me".

Cheezywan
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  #10  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:38 PM
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IMO the first problem has nothing to do with firearms. Nothing to do with ammo or caliber either. The FBI does not want to admit their tactics were horrible. It's not like the bad guys ganged up on them. The FBI were in pursuit. They had the great advantage of time, place and understood the nature of the criminals. Rather than admit they failed miserably they got good men hurt/killed, they blamed a little 9mm bullet.

So then they decided the 10mm was the wiz bang cure. Ooops.. come to find out the rank and file can't shoot it well. Then they went to 10mm lite and then to 40 S&W. Now to 9mm. It's like following a staggering drunk down an alley. I shoot and have carried all the above cartridges and am sure none of them are the real problem or cure. The FBI blew it 100%. Many years ago Jeff Cooper commented that the whole thing would have been over with a 30-30, 2 shots and decent tactics.

So, yes, I agree with the FBI going to 9mm. But I give them no more credit for it than a broken clock is right twice a day.
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  #11  
Old 01-31-2017, 01:54 PM
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Where I used to work, we've had to do some study on that bank-robbery shootout, among others. I can't recall the FBI ever blaming the bullet for the way the scenario panned out. Rather, they decided that, of those rounds that impacted the criminals, a larger more powerful caliber would have helped.

The unfolding of the chase and tactical mistakes during the stop and shootout are separate and apart from caliber and weapon selection. I never heard that agency claim any different.
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  #12  
Old 01-31-2017, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
Before deciding on a personal defense cartridge.
You need to consider the risk, and what you need to address the same.

Walking out the door, I feel completely OK with my M637 and a cylinder of 110gr Sierra Blitz HP's. I think it unlikely I'll need to pull it out and defend myself, as not a single person in my town has needed to do so in years. But I'm ready if needed.

If the local liberals get out of control, I'll pack some bug repellent.
If Obama's freed criminals and terrorists become a problem, I'll load up my M69.
If I think I need a .44/45 every day, I'll move.
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  #13  
Old 02-04-2017, 11:33 AM
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I honestly can't feel much of a difference between 9mm and 45
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  #14  
Old 02-04-2017, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trent12 View Post
https://www.ammunitiondepot.com/281-...rain-p-hp.html

This is a good load for a 9mm pistol. It's a hot 124gr load that out of a 4" 9mm (Glock 19) will match or at least get close to a 3" .357magnum load. It's what I keep loaded in the one 9mm pistol I keep. I also use gold dots in my .40, .45auto, and 6.8 SPC rifle.

My two carry 9mm handguns [LC9 and Walther CCP] are loaded with that ammo. Dang accurate and fast.
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezywan View Post
The government spent some serious money on the "study" that got them to re-think and re-arm. As posted, the 10 mm made the cut for ballistics, but didn't work for the "agency".

US armed forces do the same thing (with different criteria). Police do it too. Money is part of it (lowest bidder? I hope not!).

My personal armament is dictated from a totally different viewpoint. Is still a balancing act though.

Wonder what off-duty everyone carries? Shorts, T-shirt, grocery store thing?

Cheezywan
Walther CCP when the weather is cooler and heavier/longer clothing is worn. Ruger LC9 when the weather is hot and clothing is more limited.
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Old 02-05-2017, 05:48 AM
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Right on Bill. "Nothing to do with ammo or caliber either. The FBI does not want to admit their tactics were horrible."

they blamed the pistol choice forgetting one guy lost his needed glasses and couldn't shoot decent, and aanother agent lot his 357 out a car door.

So politically important to place blame on equipment and get more $$ dollars to play with. Nowmany years later, someone finally realized that The 10mm and the 40 are too heavy recoiling for the "average" office bound agent to shoot properly. And lots of small female agents (some LARGE female agents also).
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  #17  
Old 02-05-2017, 07:17 AM
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It goes without saying that most of us (BGs included) would rather NOT get into a gun fight but of those who do, some can put up a helluva fight to stay alive regardless of cartridge choice. IMO, the cartridge of choice is only one factor in many that determines who ends up surviving. YMMV
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  #18  
Old 02-05-2017, 08:15 AM
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Great quote Cheezy, "One size fits ME"

44 Rem. Mag, 240 grain Speer or Remington soft points for soft skinned bad'uns. Loaded to 1100 fps, either bullet makes a mess of things. Where 15 rounds and three extra mags gives "you" 60 rounds to spray and pray, I have 6, plus two speed loaders to shoot through plywood, sheetrock, 2X6's, R19 and that fake brick stuff or car doors.

You gotta know your limitations.

RJ
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  #19  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:00 PM
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I recently read an interesting article (Is .40 S&W Dead?) that discussed this very topic. The author's conclusion is that analysis of this firefight led the FBI to adopt a standardized test protocol for ammunition, but then the test protocol led ammunition manufacturers to improve their products to meet the requirements. Over time, the FBI's dalliance with 10mm and .40 S&W has become unnecessary as 9mm has evolved into a more effective caliber.
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  #20  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:45 PM
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I also now just carry either my 45ACP 1911 , Or my Charter Arms Stub nose Bulldog in 44 Special. For my CC. Once in a while I pull out my Ruger 357 Magnum.? but just once in a while.
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