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Old 09-22-2014, 06:26 PM
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FBI's 9mm justification

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It's out there now, so we just as well talk about it. It roughly mirrors my thoughts and my long term conversion from a rabid .45 ACP fan to a confirmed 9mm Para fan.

Eventually, I reached a point where I was unable to deny the advantages of higher magazine capacity, reduced recoil and faster controlled pairs and double taps along with generally higher scores (once you remove the minor/major power factor issues), along with the reality that the current crop of 9mm hollow points offer very impressive terminal ballistics and give up little or nothing to calibers that start with a ".4".

FBI 9mm Justification
Old 09-23-2014, 04:22 AM
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When I started carrying I decided on the .40 S&W. If I had to do it again, I'd go 9mm for the reasons you mention. Still might. Something I find troubling from that report though is this bullet point:

LEO’s miss between 70 – 80 percent of the shots fired during a shooting incident

It doesn't matter what caliber is used, those kinds of numbers don't work work for me. Hey, as a taxpayer, I'm more than happy to buy more rounds and range time.
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Old 09-23-2014, 04:30 AM
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Wait a while, it's going to be something different in a couple of years. It's like the weather.
Old 09-23-2014, 11:56 AM
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Lets face it, the 9MM was introduced because of the inclusion of folks who could not fire the .45 and to conform to world standards.
The .45 ACP is still the best man stopper.
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Old 09-23-2014, 12:40 PM
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Started my pistol shooting back in the early 70s with some warn out second hand 9mm Brownings but they still shot better than any of us were capable of at the time. I must admit I did like those old Brownings. We then went to 38 Model 10s, then to 357Mags but by then I had moved on. I am and admit to being a bit of a pedantic old f##t but my mantra was always practise bridge of the nose shots if available and any calibre will put the assailant down. Similarly a shot just above his family jewels will also put him on his knees because there is very little just there to prevent a bullet punching through to the lower spine and knocking legs into oblivion. All of this of course requires lots of practise under stress. Twenty push ups and in to a two second or one second exposure and repeat and of course the old argument, why waste two bullets in the same hole where you have already destroyed all nerve tissue etc. IF you can after all of the adrenalin producing exercise, then put two stopping shots on target, the calibre is irrelevant in my view. A 22RF on the bridge of the nose is going to stop all conversation for sure.
IF EVER I required a side arm for my protection then a modern version of those old Brownings in 9mm would suite me fine. Just the simple view of a pedantic old English guy.

I am not saying that all or any of the alternatives would not do an equally good job. It is down to what you can handle with confidence UNDER STRESS.

Last edited by Sus Scrofa; 09-23-2014 at 12:44 PM.
Old 09-24-2014, 01:22 PM
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My first hadgun was a cz75 in 9mm. I love the cartridge, the cheaper price permitted me more practice. And I never felt like it wasn't enough gun. I still like 9mm a lot. But I carry .45 and .40 now, just because I don't find myself shooting all that much better with the 9 than I do my .40 or .45. Though I don't like the .40s&w cartridge all too much. My friends dad was a LEO when the departments did the big switch from 9mm to .40 here in NM, and they filled those LEO's heads full of cartridge supremisist ideas, that the .40 was designed specifically for law enforcement to be the most effective cartridge. He told me that .45 shoots too heavy of a bullet and has no range whatsoever, and the 9mm is going to take 9 shots while .40 would only take 1
Edit: the only person I know personaly who has had to use a firearm for defense was using a 9mm loaded with a 124gr +p jhp, he fired one shot into the assailants chest, a rather large assailant, and it killed him instantly. So I've always been more about shot placement

Last edited by Trent12; 09-24-2014 at 01:31 PM.
Old 09-24-2014, 02:58 PM
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It seems to me that James Bond does fairly well with a .380...

Old 09-24-2014, 03:16 PM
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I believe Mr. Bond used a Walther .25
Old 09-24-2014, 03:33 PM
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I'm sorry, but I like the big and slow option and I'll take it over a 9 anytime. As, not only a LEO, but an NRA police firearms instructor, I always carried a 45. I can tell you about recent involvement with people that are hopped up with drugs and they keep taking 9's until they bleed out. In the Pacific theater they had the same problem and the 45's fixed it.

Also, many LEO's can't shoot. I know I tried to get them to pass the qualification course, but those of us who can usually do pretty well. What's hard to do, is the technical, when under pressure. You can't miss fast enough!

Speaking of James Bond, yes he does well, as long as it isn't in the first part of the movie...

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Old 09-24-2014, 03:46 PM
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I was told way back in the 60s by Army sergeants that anyone hit anywhere w/ a 45 was going to get knocked down..

But on the other hand some other sergeants said "you might as well throw the 45 at em as to shoot em. I guess they couldnt shoot. I do believe that CCW guns of today are probably somewhat better quality than govt 45s of those days.
Old 09-24-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Easternhunter View Post
Lets face it, the 9MM was introduced because of the inclusion of folks who could not fire the .45 and to conform to world standards.
The .45 ACP is still the best man stopper.

Well probably, but then if you really want a man stopper why piss about with a .45 ACP? Why not issue everyone with one of those IMI Desert Eagle things in .44 Mag?

Actually, I'll tell you why; because they're too big, too heavy, have too much recoil, are too slow to get back on target in the event that another shot is required and typically, don't allow for a good sized reserve of ammo. Like most successful things in life, the 9mm Para is a practical compromise. Not necessarily the best at any one thing but a sensible choice when one is confronted with a number of competing and often contradictory considerations.
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Last edited by greyseal; 09-24-2014 at 03:53 PM.
Old 09-24-2014, 03:51 PM
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Although I have a number of handguns in a variety of calibers, I have always been a fan of the .45ACP in the 1911. Probably from my indoctrination to it during boot camp. While I still like the .45 a lot, as I age I have begun leaning more to the 9mm especially since I picked up a S&W M&P pistol. It fits me well and I shoot it more confidently now. The Hornady Critical Defense and Critical Duty ammo feed well in everything I have and seem to exhibit very consistent results. With the improvements in ammo and the lower recoil, I'm learning to like the 9mm.
Old 09-24-2014, 03:56 PM
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James used the .25 berretta in the first few movies. He was upgraded to the .380 there after
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Easternhunter View Post
Lets face it, the 9MM was introduced because of the inclusion of folks who could not fire the .45 and to conform to world standards.
The .45 ACP is still the best man stopper.
So... a .45 ACP is hands down a better man stopper than... say, a .44 Magnum? How about a 10mm? Don't think so.

In fact, I recall a shooting some time ago where a fairly high ranked IPSC shooter had his gun shop robbed. He followed the dirtbag outside and confronted him at close distance with a little snubby .38 Spl. He didn't do that from behind cover, and the dirtbag put a couple of .45 ACPs into his chest. The shop owner then put some of those .38 Spl shop target rounds into the dirtbag's chest in return, who immediately stopped shooting and politely fell to the pavement and started the process of going to room temperature. The shop owner made it back inside to call for help before collapsing. It was a near thing, but he lived and is still with us. That's anecdotal, it's one event I'm personally aware of, but it is not unique nor unusual either. The point is, it isn't as simple as saying "_____ is the best man stopper".

Let's face it, .45 fans would be saying that even if 9mms killed like a bolt of lightening from God himself. Or .38 Spls. Or .357 Sigs. Or whatever.

Which then leads to the usual debates and arguments. Like here. Like all the times before every time this comes up.

Aside from noting that the wound track of the wonderous .45 Auto (a cartridge I happen to like a lot) doesn't look all that different than all the rest pictured, one can't help but note that most of the special force units in the world, police and military, choose the 9mm - not the .45 ACP. I doubt it is because those people can't hit what they're shooting at, and I doubt it's because all those specialized units aren't allowed to pick whatever they want. I also doubt it is because they think a 9mm bullet performs significantly better than a .45 ACP on target. My guess is that, when everything is factored in (recoil, rounds in magazine, time for on target controlled pairs, etc), the 9mm has other advantages over the .45 ACP that have nothing to do with bullet performance, while giving away little or nothing in effectiveness on target.

Like everyone else in the military/law enforcement, I carry what I am issued. I get no say whatsoever in weapon, caliber, issue round, etc. I can't say I lose sleep over carrying a 9mm while working, and the only real reason I make the change to 10mm for off work carry is because the most likely problem around here is going to have four legs, not two. Cougars and bears are a more likely problem in rural NW Montana than dirtbags.

For those not in the military or law enforcement, the beauty of it all is you can choose pretty much anything you want. If you're fine with the 9mm, then good for you. If you believe the only real effective handgun cartridge out there is the .45 ACP, then good for you as well. You get to choose whatever it is that floats your boat and makes you feel secure.

My thinking is that time is better spent on choosing and carrying the right load for whatever caliber you choose, than worrying over whether the 9mm is as good as the .357 Sig, whether the .45 ACP can keep up with the .44 Magnum, or whatever. And I'll bet the majority of people spend more time on the Internet arguing which caliber is best than they do on the range actually practicing with the caliber/handgun of their choice.

Of course, I could be wrong...
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Last edited by Jäger; 09-24-2014 at 04:38 PM.
Old 09-24-2014, 04:34 PM
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I think I remember these statistics correctly. I can't find the report right at the moment, but if someone needs to correct my memory, go right ahead.

About 10 years ago, I believe, the NYPD conducted a study that showed the most common range of engagement in a gunfight was 6 - 8 feet. At that distance, with an average of 8 shots fired by all participants, 3 hits were recorded. when the range opened to 5 yards, 1 hit was achieved, At 10 yards and beyond, less than one hit per hundred rounds fired was achieved. Contributing factors were adrenaline, lack of practice, and insufficient training. Most officers, according to the report, fired their weapons only at the annual qualification.

case in point: Amadu Diallo. NYPD fired more than 40 rounds at him, with no return fire, I might mention, because he was unarmed, from a range of about 15 feet and only achieved 19 hits. No one ever asked where the other 21+ bullets went.

Training, proper training and enough of it, trumps caliber. As Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch told our class, "You can't miss fast enough to make a difference!"
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Old 09-24-2014, 04:36 PM
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Don't know why, as it's the same as the weapon that I carry today. I guess if you can't hit anything with it, it does make a difference. I am at the top, as far as marksmanship goes, but some weapons just don't seem to agree with me.

I had a p38, that I don't think I could hit the walls of an outhouse if I was in it, yet my wife could roll an aluminum can with it. Of course she couldn't even shoot my S&W 439, it would never cycle for her. I don't think she could hold it firm enough to make it cycle.

I don't think any weapon would knock you down, or it would the shooter, as it's basic physics, but the impact does deliver well and I find them a pleasure to shoot. Saying that, I'd hate to get hit with a 50 BMG round and I shoot those from a shoulder fired weapon. Now that is big...

I don't remember bond ever having a .25 auto. I know he didn't in the books versions and I think I'd have noticed as I've been a fan ever since I was a kid. I used to reload my 380 auto, used the same bullet for it, as I did for my 38's and 9mm. Just lacking a little in velocity.

I would be a fan of the 45 no matter what, but that's what I was saying that I prefer to carry a 45. I don't see many 44 mag autoloader (although there a couple). I had a S&W 629 and a Ruger SSA 44 mag, both were great shooters but I wouldn't want to carry them, especially concealed. I didn't even think about it starting a discussion as it was a personal opinion. BTW the many of the special forces do carry 45's and the military is speaking of returning to the 45 for numerous reasons. So don't count them out. But I realize it's personal opinion... We can leave it at that. Unless...

Take care...


Last edited by jkwilborn; 09-24-2014 at 04:43 PM.
Old 09-24-2014, 04:44 PM
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My take on Macpherson.

Old 09-24-2014, 04:55 PM
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If not mistaken Bond used a 32ACP NOT 380ACP
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Old 09-24-2014, 05:00 PM
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I will take the 45 ACP over the 9MM any day.?
Old 09-24-2014, 05:05 PM
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Thank you sbubrick, it was a .25 Berretta. The Walther came later and was 7.65 PPK if I remember right.

I was quite a Bond fan in the mid 60's. A couple of years before girls became the main attraction for me. Ah, the carefree days of youth. lol
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