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  #21  
Old 09-05-2016, 11:17 AM
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When hunting quail with a bird dog - cottontail rabbits MUST be shot. Immediately! If you want to see that dog again in the next several hours, at least. And rabbit goes well with quail for dinner, anyway

Deer? Best have a shock collar to train it not to chase those.

My lab wouldn't run off from me (not far, anyway) when retrieving doves but that was different than any bird dog I ever hunted with. Some are better than others!
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  #22  
Old 09-05-2016, 11:57 AM
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When hunting quail with a bird dog - cottontail rabbits MUST be shot. Immediately! If you want to see that dog again in the next several hours, at least. And rabbit goes well with quail for dinner, anyway

Deer? Best have a shock collar to train it not to chase those.

My lab wouldn't run off from me (not far, anyway) when retrieving doves but that was different than any bird dog I ever hunted with. Some are better than others!
We found with GSPs, not to shoot rabbits or the dogs start hunting them and ignore the quail.
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  #23  
Old 09-05-2016, 11:59 AM
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Close=Picture is Dry Falls on the Columbia. Above Soap Lake.
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  #24  
Old 09-05-2016, 12:12 PM
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Bird dog/ rabbit dog

Don't blame the dog for poor training. Nobody said good dog training was quick and easy. If you've ever had the privilege to hunt over well trained dogs it is remarkable what they will & won't do. A good point/hold/flush/retrieve/release is not something a dog will learn well from running with other dogs. I can't believe how many people think that's how dogs get trained. Try the care & training of the versatile hunting dog by Bodo Winterholt.
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  #25  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:16 PM
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Smile Thanks to all who replied

King4, there's nothing to apologize for. Common sense? "Common sense dictates that this must be so. But as Einstein has pointed out, common sense is actually nothing more than a deposit of prejudices laid down in the mind prior to the age of eighteen. Every new idea one encounters in later years must combat this accretion of “self-evident” concepts. And it is because of Einstein’s unwillingness ever to accept any unproven principle as self-evident that he was able to penetrate closer to the underlying realities of nature than any scientist before him." - Lincoln Barnett, former editor of “Life” magazine. This is my fallback when people accuse me of not having “common sense.” My physics education taught me to question everything – as good an excuse for asking stupid questions as any I can think of.

Yes, guys, I really need to train my puppy better. Also, I'm strongly considering the purchase of a Garmin Alpha. The coyote in question appeared out of the sagebrush at about 15-20 yards.

Coyotes aren't always singles, they do hunt in packs. My dog, being twice or three times the size of the coyote isn't in danger from a single coyote. However, a pack of coyotes might be different. Or a mountain lion. When I was young, we witnessed a coyote pack kill a healthy adult mule deer. They surrounded her and one or two chased her inside the circle until she collapsed. Mountain lions kill horses regularly. If a mountain lion or a pack of coyotes decides to eat my dog, will the shotgun be enough?

As for buzz-tailed worms, Northern Nevada has the fewest of any place I've lived except Germany and cities. And my 28 gauge is more than enough to kill them, although I generally just let them be unless they're a dangerous nuisance. When I'm packing a revolver, I usually have snake loads in the first two chambers. (Then wadcutters in the next two, then go-to-war rounds.)
Southeast USA: big, aggressive Eastern Diamondbacks, Pigmy rattlers on the gate handle, copperheads, water moccasins, etc.
Mojave Desert: sidewinders and Mojave “greens” and diamondbacks.
Rock House Basin in the Sierra Nevada between Ridgecrest and Bakersfield CA: so many stinkin' snakes I must have run my pickup over fifty to a hundred of 'em even when trying to avoid them!
Oregon: lots and lots of diamondbacks. (Crotalus oreganus oreganus)


I have a TC Contender with a scope and 7mm TCU barrel and the appropriate holster. I've used it for 30 years. However, Jack Belk wrote several pages about the TC Contender in UnSafe by Design: Forensic Gunsmithing and Firearms Accident Investigations, starting on page 354. That dissuaded me from carrying the Contender afield anymore. Otherwise, the old Contender would be my go-to also. If I could hit steel targets from 50 to 200 meters without having to dial my scope, I'd say that's plenty flat shooting. The 7mm TCU is just the right balance between moxie and recoil & blast.
A quote from Mr. Belk's book: “The TC Contender has an internal safety that is released by action of the hammer. It was clear the gun was landing precisely on the butt in such a way the internal safety would have to be disengaged and then the gun would rotate so that the hammer hit the rock being moved or whatever it impacted.”
So, I've been shopping Gun Broker for an alternative.
Black rifle semi-autos are too bulky. A carbine with a side-swinging buttstock would be more practical. I certainly can't imagine strapping that hoozie-watizzit to my arm in an emergency. As far as I can tell, those are playthings for the range without practical application.
Bolt action hand-rifles like the Remington XP-100 have the bolt taking up almost half the length of the gun. XP-100 in 7mm Rem. BR might be acceptable, however, if Mr. Belk were to sprinkle magic pixie dust on the trigger or whatever it is that he does. The plastic stock screams, “cheap!” but it's usable and very light weight.
Falling block actions and break actions are more compact but I'm only familiar with the TC. The MOA falling block certainly looks cool but I have never touched one and I surely don't know how safe it would be to carry. I also see Springfield Armory and RPM break actions but I know nothing about them, either.
Artillery block actions—Ordnance Technology, Magnum Research Lone Eagle, Competitor – look interesting even though they are ugly as sin. I know almost nothing about them; I handled one, I think it was an Ordnance, many years ago. The little research I've done, I think Ordnance originated the design and sold it to Magnum Research who sold it to Competitor. Competitor is now defunct. I'd prefer the earlier version because Competitor made it self-cocking vs. having to cock it with a separate lever. I'd rather carry it with one in the chamber and manually cock it, if and only if it can be done safely.



Thanks again for your advice!
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Last edited by 91Carcano; 09-05-2016 at 02:26 PM. Reason: sp
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  #26  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:41 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
When hunting quail with a bird dog - cottontail rabbits MUST be shot. Immediately! If you want to see that dog again in the next several hours, at least. And rabbit goes well with quail for dinner, anyway

Deer? Best have a shock collar to train it not to chase those.

My lab wouldn't run off from me (not far, anyway) when retrieving doves but that was different than any bird dog I ever hunted with. Some are better than others!
It's already too late, Mike! I had bunches of cottontails in my yard. He has supplemented his diet with them. He finds one hiding under a bush and leaps over the bush (up to ~4' high) turning in mid-air to come down facing the bush from the other side. Then the startled rabbit exits the other (my) side.
Black-tailed jackrabbits are another story. I've never known him to catch one but I have heard the horrible squeals as he ran over it.
I don't think we've ever encountered a white-tailed jack. They run a big circle to come back where they started... lotsa FUN!
Germans use their GSPs as all-purpose dogs. Waterfowl, upland birds, rabbits, deer, pig are all prey. Of course, Germans also use drillings and even four barreled hand-artillery.
On edit: guess I'm really replying to BearBio
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Last edited by 91Carcano; 09-05-2016 at 02:29 PM. Reason: confusion
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  #27  
Old 09-05-2016, 01:50 PM
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If I'm out walking my dogs just enjoying the time not hunting my go to gun is a contender 22 mag with a red dot, with walking stick as a rest center of body hits on a coyote size animal are doable with practice. A 22 mag won't kill a coyote at that distance instantly but the last thing on his mind will be your pooch when he has a hole in his chest.

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  #28  
Old 09-05-2016, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by 91Carcano View Post
I have a TC Contender with a scope and 7mm TCU barrel and the appropriate holster. I've used it for 30 years. However, Jack Belk wrote several pages about the TC Contender in UnSafe by Design: Forensic Gunsmithing and Firearms Accident Investigations, starting on page 354. That dissuaded me from carrying the Contender afield anymore. Otherwise, the old Contender would be my go-to also. If I could hit steel targets from 50 to 200 meters without having to dial my scope, I'd say that's plenty flat shooting. The 7mm TCU is just the right balance between moxie and recoil & blast.
A quote from Mr. Belk's book: “The TC Contender has an internal safety that is released by action of the hammer. It was clear the gun was landing precisely on the butt in such a way the internal safety would have to be disengaged and then the gun would rotate so that the hammer hit the rock being moved or whatever it impacted.”
Just carry it unloaded. The trick with a single shot is just to have a couple rounds quickly accessible on a wrist carrier or something similar. They can be loaded and into action rather quickly. You're not gonna make an offhand snap shot at a coyote at 200 yrds with a handgun anyway. Plenty of time to load while you're getting a rest to shoot.
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  #29  
Old 09-05-2016, 06:15 PM
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I still think carrying a pack of shotgun slugs will work well if the yotes are within 100 yards and are threatening your dog. My 20ga pump would do 4" groups at 100 with them when I played with it. Idk what options you have for slugs in a 28ga or how accurate they will be. But I would give them a try. 50 yards and in they are perfect and won't risk hitting your dog anymore than a pistol or buckshot if you asked me. Out to 200 yards in not sure of the trajectory or accuracy you would get but it might surprise you. It's worth a try at the range though.

I just can't think of a lot of options outside of a monster revolver of the .454 or .460 S&W cartridge. Or a SBR (ar15 pistol or such).

I personaly hardly like carrying my Ruger .22/45 lite when I'm out toting a shotgun. I carry a pack of slugs or buckshot for just in case in my back pockets.

I have about the same predatory species as you do. Coyotes and mountain lions. But I've never seen the lions anywhere I hunt. Although I'm told they are around and see a couple guys with pictures of them on trail cameras. I also don't have a dog to retrieve for me right now. I bring along my slender friends for that. I had one jump in the water to get our birds for us once last year. I'm far too big at 6'4" and 250lbs to move around through all the bushes and stuff to reach some of my birds I bring a jacket and gloves to avoid slicing my arm and hands open most of the time. My older brother is 5'7" and 130lbs, will be bringing him quail hunting with us this year we have a lot of thick brush around here in a lot of places.
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  #30  
Old 09-05-2016, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Sus Scrofa View Post
Buy a whistle and teach your dog to heel when you blow it. Hopefully the coyote will follow and learn it's lesson..
The smartest answer.

A moving predator at 200 yds is no easy shot with a heavy barrel .223/.22-250. Shooting more than a few games of handgun silhouette, even a ram at 100yds is iffy.
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  #31  
Old 09-05-2016, 09:55 PM
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Outside of an AR or a specialty pistol I don't believe you'll have much luck hitting with a handgun at the distances you're talking about. For coyote I believe I'd be thinking of a .357 or 10mm for a handgun and realize you need to have a diminished expectation of the distance you can expect to be successful.
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Last edited by Manny; 09-05-2016 at 10:03 PM.
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  #32  
Old 09-05-2016, 10:45 PM
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When hunting quail with a bird dog - cottontail rabbits MUST be shot. Immediately! If you want to see that dog again in the next several hours, at least. And rabbit goes well with quail for dinner, anyway

Deer? Best have a shock collar to train it not to chase those.

My lab wouldn't run off from me (not far, anyway) when retrieving doves but that was different than any bird dog I ever hunted with. Some are better than others!
Mike, I'm way past being able to do it these days, but I have a friend who runs English pointers on the moors for red grouse. I would love for you to experience that. Those dogs have one quarry and one only and will be cast to hunt out 1/2 a mile before working the wind back to the guns. Oh for the legs of a 30yr old again
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  #33  
Old 09-06-2016, 03:49 AM
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You are asking for a recommendation for gun that will solve a problem that is not a problem that can be solved with any kind of gun. Your dog peels of the hunt to chase something you are not hunting, and is ignoring your verbal commands. That is a dog training issue.

Your best defense of your dog is for him to break off the chase and return to you upon your command. The coyotes first choice will be to flee unless you dog denies him that option. I have yet to see a coyote that does not respond to a gunshot with flight, whether it hits him or not.
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Last edited by TimSr; 09-06-2016 at 03:55 AM.
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  #34  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:09 AM
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If you don't have a care for your own hearing, have a care about your dogs.
can you say , Gemteck....
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  #35  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:32 AM
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"As for buzz-tailed worms, Northern Nevada has the fewest of any place I've lived except Germany and cities. And my 28 gauge is more than enough to kill them, although I generally just let them be unless they're a dangerous nuisance. When I'm packing a revolver, I usually have snake loads in the first two chambers. (Then wadcutters in the next two, then go-to-war rounds.)
Southeast USA: big, aggressive Eastern Diamondbacks, Pigmy rattlers on the gate handle, copperheads, water moccasins, etc.
Mojave Desert: sidewinders and Mojave “greens” and diamondbacks.
Rock House Basin in the Sierra Nevada between Ridgecrest and Bakersfield CA: so many stinkin' snakes I must have run my pickup over fifty to a hundred of 'em even when trying to avoid them!
Oregon: lots and lots of diamondbacks. (Crotalus oreganus oreganus)"

Regarding buzztails:

Most of the snakes in northern Nevada (and the Great Plains and Columbia Basin where I live now) will be found in the vicinity of water. I was recently a manager on a mapping project looking at sightings and habitat to predict ranges of a wide variety of species, including rattlesnakes and I was surprised to find that out, coming from SoCal. Diamondbacks in the Mojave are the same, although you may be confusing "diamondbacks" with So Pacifics (Crotalus viridus ssp). The only true diamondbacks we ever caught were along the Colorado River. Same for Oregon where they are more likely Northern Pacifics (westside) or Great Basin Rattlers (Dry Side) The species is Western Rattler, which adds to the confusion. Great Plains, No Pacific, So. Pacific are all subspecies names. Recent revisions make it even more confusing. So has apparent cross-breeding in the past between So Pacifics and Mojaves in the Antelope Valley area of SoCal.

Edwards AFB also has/had a good population of rattlers (and jack rabbits!). Lots of Mojaves in that area.

Information courtesy of 20+ years in SoCal as an amateur "herp", as well as a grad course in Herpetology and 2 years working professionally for the Feds as a herpetologist.
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  #36  
Old 09-06-2016, 04:52 AM
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Sure i can say gemteck

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Originally Posted by 2hellandback View Post
can you say , Gemteck....
I can also say adding more weight to a rifle you don't need for chukar hunting in the first place will only make a PIA that much greater. Not to mention there wasn't one in your pic. Save the Billy bad *** stuff for storming the castle, & keeping the shopping malls safe.
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  #37  
Old 09-06-2016, 05:34 AM
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BearBio, your piece brought back memories of my first visit to the USA and California. I was a guest of a LA Deputy and he took me for a walk in the desert somewhere north of Lancaster, probably unknown to me close to Edwards. He gave me a very strict talking too about the Greens prior to our walking the desert brush with a semi auto 22RF and I shot my first animal of many since, in the USA, a Jack Rabbit, I walked the shots in behind the ears, which is all I could see bobbing up behind the low brush and eventually they didn't come up again. Just shows the change in gun law. He issued me with a snubby 38 Special and a brown envelope with about 30 rounds to take with us in the camper on our journey around the State.
As said, any gunfire should put off any coyote, so a 22 RF would be quite adequate.
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  #38  
Old 09-06-2016, 06:01 AM
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BearBio, your piece brought back memories of my first visit to the USA and California. I was a guest of a LA Deputy and he took me for a walk in the desert somewhere north of Lancaster, probably unknown to me close to Edwards. He gave me a very strict talking too about the Greens prior to our walking the desert brush with a semi auto 22RF and I shot my first animal of many since, in the USA, a Jack Rabbit, I walked the shots in behind the ears, which is all I could see bobbing up behind the low brush and eventually they didn't come up again. Just shows the change in gun law. He issued me with a snubby 38 Special and a brown envelope with about 30 rounds to take with us in the camper on our journey around the State.
As said, any gunfire should put off any coyote, so a 22 RF would be quite adequate.
Interesting. For as long as I can remember, shooting rabbits and squirrels with a rimfire was illegal in L.A. County. Of course, you might have been over the border in Kern County.
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  #39  
Old 09-06-2016, 07:38 AM
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Mike, I'm way past being able to do it these days, but I have a friend who runs English pointers on the moors for red grouse. I would love for you to experience that. Those dogs have one quarry and one only and will be cast to hunt out 1/2 a mile before working the wind back to the guns. Oh for the legs of a 30yr old again
Sounds good! The last time I bird hunted with a dog, it was in college and on public land around one of the lakes in central Missouri. Near the town of Tightwad. One of my college friends had a bird dog in the family that had apparently just about died of one thing or another, but was on the mend at that time (I have never seen a skinnier dog in my life!). 'Ralph' and no, he wasn't really trained to not chase things but fortunately I had grown up hunting rabbits and could bust one pretty quick when it jumped out at my feet. This before the days of remote collars and yelling at the dog was pretty much our only option if he acted up. Not being in 100% health probably kept him closer than he normally would have been.

'Ralph' could find and point quail and we had a grand time. Some funny stories about that trip. Most of the time you couldn't see 50 yards through the brush, if we had let Ralph get half a mile away he might as well have been in another time zone.

Would have been far too cold for snakes (November as I recall) but there is a big business in 'snake-proofing' dogs in Texas. Big problem hunting doves in 100+ F degree heat, the rattlesnakes are active and there isn't a shortage of them, either. Just to get it back on track. 'Snake-proofing' your dog might be a wise thing to do if in an area where those are a hazard. I don't know about 'coyote-proofing' and can't imagine carrying two long guns on a long days' bird hunt. I guess if predators were really a problem I'd consider a combination gun.....
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  #40  
Old 09-06-2016, 08:15 AM
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In SoCal, at least, Quail Unlimited used to snake proof dogs each year before quail and dove season.
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