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Self Defense

13K views 97 replies 40 participants last post by  m141a 
#1 ·
I've seen alot of peoples ideas on a "minimum" caliber for self defense. Now, I understand that when push comes to shove, you want something that will leave a hole the size of a volkswagon in the attacker, but is it really needed? My feeling is that unless someones coming at you covered in body armor, a 9mm is going to work just as well. It almost seems that some peoples opinion when it comes to self defense is that anything smaller than a .40 is a joke and ought to be sold at a Toys R Us and not a gun shop. Anyone else feel that way, or should I put a down payment on a cannon to mount in my closet to defend the home?
 
#2 ·
I'd rather have a .22 than a knife, a .380 or 9mil or .38 Special over a .22, a .40 over those, a .45 over that. I use a couple of .38 Special snubnoses around the house, scattered here and there. What do I grab for when something that goes bump in the night? My 12 ga M870 loaded with BB's and / or 0000 buckshot. Thing is, whatever you get is better than hand to hand. Just practice with it. Especially in a darkened room. I also keep a mini mag light next to the shotgun.
 
#3 ·
I feel the same way. A 9mm will work just as well, but if you have any doubt, aim for the head. I personally have several different defense weapons placed throughout my apartment. I have a .40 by my bed, 12ga. in the middle bedroom, .357 mag. in the livingroom, and a .38 special in the bathroom (so i dont get caught with my pants down lol). All of them loaded. Yes, I may be a little paranoid, but with only one way in and out, I would much rather be safe than sorry.
 
#4 ·
I picked a .40 only because it was better concealed then a .45. Otherwise I would have bought a 1911.

The reason I picked that caliber is because of looking at all the nasty pictures of people and animals getting killed. It is about the same Ft # at close range as a .45 and still puts a big enough hole to stop someone 15 feet away and the FMJ might make it far enough to exit and break the spine.

My self defense clip is loaded self-defense ammo, hollow point, FMJ, repeat with the idea of shooting anyone three times, that is how I practice at the range.

For home defense, the .40 gives me enough time to get more clips and the shotgun if more then one attacker.

> Boston MA

Can you even get a concealed weapons permit? That might be where I would start my purchase, if you can not, then I would go shotgun.
 
#5 ·
A 75 mm recoiless rifle leaves little room for argument. Local authorities may frown on its deployment in populated areas, though.

Check other threads. There are pluses minuses to all choices. Most of us who are comfy with the .45 handguns like them partly for the reason their use doesn't involve any dependency on expansion, which sometimes fails to work consistently. The .45 is a pre-expanded .380 Magnum (9 mm), as the saying goes.

But as previously said, any gun is better than no gun in a bad situation. You try to have the heaviest chambering you can control to hand (one reason the 12 gauges with an 18" barrel for pointing control is generally agreed to be about the most favorable thing to have in close quarters), but you work with what you actually have available.
 
#9 ·
A 75 mm recoiless rifle leaves little room for argument. Local authorities may frown on its deployment in populated areas, though.

Nick, I do like the 75mm, but a flame thrower is much more practical. Remeber, it saves biohazard clean up time and paperwork!
Aww, come on Mike? Who's arguing?
;) :p
 
#6 ·
jbee, I have my LTC, and a small collection of firearms. I'm not so much looking for a self defense caliber, just wondering why people seem to think that 9mm and .38 special won't do the trick.

And it's not Boston, it's a suburb north of the city, little easier to get my LTC living outside the city
 
#7 ·
9mm and 38 special have been doin the job for abouyt a 100 years and they are better than ever ,due to technological advances in bullet construction.Both are easier to shoot than heavier calibers.It what you are most comfortable with is what you should use.A hit with 22lr is better than a miss with a 44mag.That said a larger caliber leaves bigger hole,and if you can handle them i would opt for a heavier caliber,unless you are looking for conceal and carry weapon.
 
#11 ·
Rats. I saw "LCR" and read "LCP". My comments were directed at the .380 semi-auto, not the revolver. Sorry, need to clean my glasses...
 
#12 · (Edited)
well i agree.. self defence with a handgun is more about knowing your gun an making the first shot count..after that ,,its very few thats very accurrate with lead flying all over the place..
don t know how id do,in that situation.. but in the past,, with me survival instincts take over an im better then,, than ever in practiceing..
somes blessed to be that way,some go all to pieces..they not wrong they just blessed in other ways, mabe..
haveing said that ,,still..you only as good as you next game..hope i never play in another game like that..cause it really ain t a game..jmo slim:)
the few times ive been there.. i experienced a high that was like nothing i ever experienced an lasted well into the next day..can t explain it but that day i had what it took..i guess i just had a rush of confidence ..go figure.. if ida had to kill a man ,i suspect the confidence would have soon been replaced by remorse..but the gun would have done its job an id be alive,along with my family..jmo.
 
#13 · (Edited)
For me minimum starts at .32 ACP with Silvertips it is 66% "one shot stops" in actual shootings - 99 out 0f 151. (I know the data from "Stopping Power" is not scientific per se but when you have infomation on hundreds of shootings it is worth considering.) From there the .380 and .38 with the best ammunition will for sure work .380 71% OSS and +p .38 is 80%. The .380 will work for sure. In the end, it depends how much gun you want to carry around. For me lighter is better which means using the minor calibers when out and about. For a night stand gun I'll start with a .357 and go up from there. Shot placement always helps and "practice makes perfect."
 
#15 ·
mt, lots of opinions I have a 45(LC) that will stop about anyone I need to stop. Big, heavy, will penetrate houses, I have a 40, smaller, more shots, black, scares folks out in the public when they see it. I have a Ruger 380, carry it a lot, doesn't scare folks, slips in a pocket or strap holster like it's not there, no safety to practice with. It will deter most anyone trying to do me or my companion harm, won't stop some meth crazed druggie with a machete trying to get my last $2 for his next fix. So I have the Colt where I can get it, I carry the 40 sometimes when it's convenient and I won't scare anybody, and I carry the 380 at all other times because it's easy and better than nothing.(I never carry nothing!)
It's what works for you, where you are, and where you go and what the risks are there. Not leaving your fate in someone else's hands works for everybody.
see ya
 
#17 ·
You dont worry about the size of a gun if it stays at home. My Beretta 92 is primarily for this, but is difficult to conceal. When it comes to concealed carry, of course diff. story. I think it boils down to what are you most likely to have with you at all times? The .45 that only is hidden under winter clothes is useless if it doesnt hide for you the rest of the time. What I usually end up carrying is a cheap, compact but utterly reliiable Erma Excam .22 (ppk knock off)- please dont laugh anyone. It carries as easy as a wallet, is super cheap to practice with even with quality .22 ammo, and allways goes boom. It is getting tired though, and I am having a tough time getting around to replaciing it with something else.
 
#18 ·
I think the 38 Spl +P is the lightest that I would go per personal defense. You have to think about more than blowing the perp away, the people or stuff behind and all sides of the perp.

If you are in your home, remember that you may shoot thru a perp and the bullet could end up in your frig or your kids.

I carry several different pistols depend on the season, I can't carry a 1911 concealed in the summer, but can during the winter.

As that I live out in the country, I am not too worried about a bullet whether it be a 38 Spl or 75mm ending up in the neighbors house, but in the burbs it is possible.

There are a few people I know that use a 32 ACP pistol for home protection, if it works for them, that great. It probably won't work for me.

The key to self defense shooting is to practice a lot and often. During the cooler months I live fire practice once a month and dry fire 2 to 3 times a month. During the summer I live fire 2 to 3 times a month. Using live ammo keeps it real, if you want the adrenaline rush before practice, run a mile or two then stop and fire while your heart is pounding.

Jerry
 
#20 ·
shot placement ..another and another,until the aggression has been stopped..know your gun an rnd..
hit what you shoot at..what ever you shoot with..may we be blessed to not have to use,, what we diligently prepare for..practice and more practice will have its reward ..if it be his will.. slim
 
#21 ·
Would you rather be shot by a .22 or missed by a .500 S&W? How well you shoot the gun of choice is more important than any other factor. The Erma .22 mentioned above is better than the ..500 cause most of us cant afford a lot of practice at $2.00 per pull of the trigger,
not to mention the beating you will take shooting the big boomer. The .22 can be shot all day long an not beat you up physcally or financially. I always reffer to the story of the Inuit girl in Alaska who killed a Brown bear with a .22 single shot rifle. I'm NOT going to try it but
it does show the value of shot placement.

Personally I'd go for the Nambu, Lahti, C96, or the M242 Bushmaster 25mm chain gun.
 
#22 ·
I would have to say 9mm. I recently did some research for a paper I was writing and looked at a bunch of ballistic gelatin data between the 9mm, 40, and 45 acp. I was actually surprised to find the 9mm had an average penetration just slightly higher than the 40. The 40 had just a slightly larger average expanded diameter as it was .69" as compared to the .64" of the 9mm. The tests were conducted with several different types of ammo and the gelatin was shot bare, covered in heavy cloth, and obstructed by auto glass. The 45 acp out performed both of the other calibers in penetration and, of course, expanded diameter as its average was .79". Not saying I'm going to run out tomorrow and buy a 9mm but I didn't see any drastic difference between it and the 40 after I crunched all the numbers and averaged the results. I guess I have to eat some crow because I always thought the 40 was much more efficient than the 9mm but the numbers just didn't reflect that.
 
#23 ·
My CCW is a Taurus 44, 'cause big holes stop people. I use "light" loads, because I am shooting close...no need to have high velocity....250gr. at 750fps...less than 30ft. I don't want to shoot several times, just one aimed correctly. I don't want it to ever happen, but I want to be prepared for...whatever.
 
#24 ·
My $0.02:

The bad guy doesn't always curl up into a ball when you shoot him. That reaction is a psychological one, and your assailant may not be functioning at a very high psychological level. There are times when you'll put three into the guy and you'll still have to fight him face to face, even if you've put holes through his heart, because he's so high or insane that he hasn't noticed he's dying yet.
Bigger holes mean faster blood loss. Faster blood loss means he'll pass out sooner.
The first shot is the most important, because you might not get a second one. Most defensive shootings happen within 21 feet. Many of them within arms length. That is a very short distance when someone wants to get close enough to you to do you harm.

This isn't to say I think a 9mm is useless. Or even a .22 LR. But, I'm saying, carry the biggest thing you're comfortable with under the circumstances.
There is, however, such a thing as too big. Anything more powerful than a .45 ACP or 10mm is likely to overpenetrate. You are liable for everything and everyone that your bullet strikes, even if you only meant to hit your assailant.
 
#25 · (Edited)
My knowledge of the facts in "self-defense", steer me to NOT choose anything in a pistol caliber, that is not at least a .38-spl with +P loads in the gun. The 9mm Luger for years was always light in bullet weight and therefore not enough kinetic energy to do the job in many cases. The 45acp has a track record dating back for over 100 plus years. The new .40 cal Smith & Wesson is a very good and excellent caliber.

Now that I have stated that above I will let you know that my CCW weapons of choice are in fact the GLOCK model 29 in 10mm caliber and the Glock model 27 in .40 cal. both are sub - compact weapons (holding 11 rounds each) and certainly are easy to conceal and bullet proof as far as dependability goes. The 10mm out of a 3.78 inch barrle develops some 640-lbs of energy with a 165 grain bullet. The .40 cal develops 495-lbs of energy using a 3.7 inch barrel with 165 grain bullets.
 
#26 ·
When I'm asked this, the answer is the same: Use the largest caliber you can shoot accurately in a rapid-fire, multiple target (up to three) scenario. More than three armed assailants and you probably aren't going to make it no matter how good you are. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Yes, most situations involve one attacker, but numbers bring courage to criminals. Concentrating on first shot accuracy is fine and will work 95% of the time; but being three shot accurate is much better even if its never called into play.
 
#28 ·
Ah the kinetic energy argument.I was read amo and ballistics by Bob Folker,And he was showing the difference between p.s.i vs Taylor k.o.system and when taken to extremes can be rather silly.Such as a this machine that break up kidney stones puts out p.s.i than most rifle and pistol cartridges(if I remember correctly) yet don't kill you,unless your doctors a quack.Taylor k.o system,basically large heavy slow movin projectiles(momentum) A pro football quarterback delivers a high taylor k.o index but you never see wide reciever killed by one or lose a limb. Most important is to hit what your aimin or pointing at and for that bullet to hit the vitals.Shoot what you are comfortable and can hit with.whether it a 22lr or a 500 s+w
 
#30 ·
Ah the kinetic energy argument.I was read amo and ballistics by Bob Folker,And he was showing the difference between p.s.i vs Taylor k.o.system and when taken to extremes can be rather silly.
So, you don't feel that a 110gr bullet going 1090 fps at the muzzle is going to be less effective than a 115gr bullet going 1200 fps at the muzzle, when both bullets are more or less the same diameter? o_O
 
#29 ·
I believe that if you test things for yourself and find out how to do so, you will reach a very satisfactory conclusion of what really will work in a self-defense caliber for you, in the pistol of your choice.

I like to keep things very simple and try to compare apples to apples simply put! Now wet newspaper is one of the best test media's you can put a bullet into. Measure the deepth of the bullets fired, the width of the wound channel etc. Also weather the bullet stayed together and it's retained weight after firing into the media.

You can also use jugs of water with denim and leather in the front but keep all media the same throughout your tests and a good idea to document your findings for further use and information.
 
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