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  #1  
Old 02-06-2017, 12:22 PM
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Concentricity Gauge


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Who uses concentricity gauges to check for bullet run out? What brand? Ease of use, do you need three hands to operate it? and last but not least do you see improvements in your reloads, tighter groups, does it help eliminate flyers?
I see they start at about $100.00 bucks and go as high as the moon! I do not own one, and up until now do not think I have needed one.
I do the half rotate while seating. and for the most part think they are concentric. B U T shooting the 221 and 22 250 at distant crows I get an occasional miss that I question. Should've been a direct explosive hit, which I believe was a flyer.
I know I am still wet behind the ears" only been reloading about 45 years and I still hate chasing flyers. Too dad burn many variables to flyers.
  #2  
Old 02-06-2017, 12:32 PM
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Any piece of scrap metal about 3/8" thick or thicker, an electric drill, one #2 center drill, four 1/4" or 3/8" ball bearings (Auto parts or hardware store) and 5 minute epoxy will make a Vee block set up that fits any caliber. Buy a $20 ebay magnetic indicator holder and indicator and you have a case/bullet concentricity guage for less than $25 and 20 minutes of work.

There IS a noticeable difference in accuracy between 'straight' ammo and those known to be not straight. If nothing else, it shows you the really bad ones.

I set the ball bearings just barely over double diameter apart for the neck and shoulder and add an 1/8 or so for the body.

Here's one with 3/8 balls for 223 size cases. Shown with my 6mm Cheapshot wildcat.
Attached Thumbnails
Concentricity Gauge-img_0960a.jpg   Concentricity Gauge-img_0962a.jpg  
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Last edited by JBelk; 02-06-2017 at 12:47 PM.
  #3  
Old 02-06-2017, 01:00 PM
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JB I like that idea I've got a Starrett dial indicator I can use. Come to think about it I've got some .001 and .0005 gauges in the shop somewhere. I'll have to issue a search warrant in the morning to find them. I would rather spend the money on reloading supplies than a Concentricty Gauge.
 
  #4  
Old 02-06-2017, 02:59 PM
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Correcting concentricity will eliminate those flyers you can't explain.

You know when you had a good sight picture, good trigger pull, etc.

Since I started correcting runout, my groups are rounder.

And if I don't get back in the gym soon, so will I.........
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  #5  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting50 View Post
Who uses concentricity gauges to check for bullet run out? What brand? Ease of use, do you need three hands to operate it?
I have several since I was doing a write up for Sinclair. No, if you know how to use them, you don't need three hands.

Quote:
last but not least do you see improvements in your reloads, tighter groups, does it help eliminate flyers?
For accuracy ammo (the way I usually load) yes it improves accuracy and I can take that all the way back to lots of M118 match ammo. Frankford XM118 is the most accurate since the bullets were seated differently and more carefully than the standard LC M118. Used to shoot a lot of it back in the 70s and early 80s.

It's really not just TIR, it's a concentricity issue.

Quote:
I see they start at about $100.00 bucks and go as high as the moon! I do not own one, and up until now do not think I have needed one.
The really expensive ones aren't really worth it. The old Forster Case and Concentricity tool takes a bit more to get used to, but it's a multi function tool and not just TIR. I did a large write up on why and how to do use it. Hornady is ok and I use it when I'm in a hurry, however the little nub they say will fix run out doesn't unless you necks are turned relatively thin and also not with Hybrid bullets.

Quote:
I do the half rotate while seating. and for the most part think they are concentric.
That's an old Mid Thompkins trick and one I've used since the 70s.

Quote:
B U T shooting the 221 and 22 250 at distant crows I get an occasional miss that I question. Should've been a direct explosive hit, which I believe was a flyer.
I know I am still wet behind the ears" only been reloading about 45 years and I still hate chasing flyers. Too dad burn many variables to flyers.
Several questions to ask here:
1) Do you uniform the primer pocket??
2) Do you uniform the flash hole?? (only needs to be done once since all flash holes are punched)
3) do you turn the case neck for more uniform tension on the bullet?
4) are you full length resizing or just neck/shoulder?
5) How are you throwing and weighing the power charges?


I can go on here, but let's isolate the basics first.

Last edited by rojkoh; 02-06-2017 at 03:19 PM.
  #6  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vic in va View Post
Correcting concentricity will eliminate those flyers you can't explain.

You know when you had a good sight picture, good trigger pull, etc.

Since I started correcting runout, my groups are rounder.

And if I don't get back in the gym soon, so will I.........
Gets worse with age... my doctor asked me if I was pregnant!
  #7  
Old 02-06-2017, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Any piece of scrap metal about 3/8" thick or thicker, an electric drill, one #2 center drill, four 1/4" or 3/8" ball bearings (Auto parts or hardware store) and 5 minute epoxy will make a Vee block set up that fits any caliber. Buy a $20 ebay magnetic indicator holder and indicator and you have a case/bullet concentricity guage for less than $25 and 20 minutes of work.

There IS a noticeable difference in accuracy between 'straight' ammo and those known to be not straight. If nothing else, it shows you the really bad ones.

I set the ball bearings just barely over double diameter apart for the neck and shoulder and add an 1/8 or so for the body.

Here's one with 3/8 balls for 223 size cases. Shown with my 6mm Cheapshot wildcat.
Easier when you have the dial attached.
  #8  
Old 02-06-2017, 04:22 PM
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Several questions to ask here:
1) Do you uniform the primer pocket??
2) Do you uniform the flash hole?? (only needs to be done once since all flash holes are punched)
3) do you turn the case neck for more uniform tension on the bullet?
4) are you full length resizing or just neck/shoulder?
5) How are you throwing and weighing the power charges?

1. yes
2. yes
3. yes
4. Neck body die trimmed .030 to bump shoulder when needed, but very rarely
5. Redding Match-Grade Model 3BR Powder Measure weigh check every tenth always within a 10th
  #9  
Old 02-06-2017, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Gets worse with age... my doctor asked me if I was pregnant!
Who is the daddy?
  #10  
Old 02-06-2017, 05:11 PM
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S50,

Had a thread a while back in the "Handloading Equipment" forum that might give you some more useful information. If I knew how to link to it here I would, but sadly I'm not that computer savy. A search of that forum should turn it up.

Shoot straight.

Jeff
  #11  
Old 02-06-2017, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
4. Neck body die trimmed .030 to bump shoulder when needed, but very rarely
You mean you're turning the neck to .030 and then bump the shoulder?

If it's .030 in the neck, that's a bit thick, but I'm not 100% sure given the caliber. I tend towards gas guns and I don't turn them that thick.

Quote:
5. Redding Match-Grade Model 3BR Powder Measure weigh check every tenth always within a 10th
Check every charge. because of all the ammo testing I do, I went to the gen6, especially when having problem throwing 4064 out of my Culvers.

One more question, are you crimping?
  #12  
Old 02-06-2017, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iwannashoot View Post
S50,

Had a thread a while back in the "Handloading Equipment" forum that might give you some more useful information. If I knew how to link to it here I would, but sadly I'm not that computer savy. A search of that forum should turn it up.

Shoot straight.

Jeff
I've been asked to restart the loading for accuracy which I'll do when I get time. It's an offshoot of articles I've done over the years.
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  #13  
Old 02-06-2017, 06:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting50 View Post
Who uses concentricity gauges to check for bullet run out? What brand? Ease of use, do you need three hands to operate it? and last but not least do you see improvements in your reloads, tighter groups, does it help eliminate flyers?
I see they start at about $100.00 bucks and go as high as the moon! I do not own one, and up until now do not think I have needed one.
I do the half rotate while seating. and for the most part think they are concentric. B U T shooting the 221 and 22 250 at distant crows I get an occasional miss that I question. Should've been a direct explosive hit, which I believe was a flyer.
I know I am still wet behind the ears" only been reloading about 45 years and I still hate chasing flyers. Too dad burn many variables to flyers.
This is an early version of something I did for Forster years ago. It's an insight into use their Case and Cartridge Inspector.

The final and edited version is a bit to large to upload here, but it will give you an idea of how to use the tool. It's not new, been around for years and some of the best M14/M1A 1000 yard shooters I know still use them, I still have mine on the shelf. Best thing about it once you get used to using it, it is a multi-function tool above those that just do TIR. If you get interested, let me know, at Brownells it's under $100 at the moment
Attached Files
File Type: pdf C&Cnumbered.pdf (888.9 KB, 118 views)
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Last edited by rojkoh; 02-06-2017 at 06:17 PM.
  #14  
Old 02-06-2017, 07:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
You mean you're turning the neck to .030 and then bump the shoulder?

If it's .030 in the neck, that's a bit thick, but I'm not 100% sure given the caliber. I tend towards gas guns and I don't turn them that thick.





Check every charge. because of all the ammo testing I do, I went to the gen6, especially when having problem throwing 4064 out of my Culvers.



One more question, are you crimping?
I trimmed .030 off the base of the body die. A full stroke wouldn't bump the shoulder before bottoming out on the shell holder. Soooo I chucked it up in the lathe and cut .030 off the base of the body die. tight chamber on the Shilen barreled 22-250.

I'll challenge you to show me a difference in 1/10th grain of 38.5 grains of varget shooting crows

I have tried it both ways crimp no crimp can't note any difference with the 221 or 22-250 so no crimp.
I only crimp the 22 hornet

rojkoh I don't have a lot of of flyers . I think my problem is an occasional concentricty issue. After reading IWANNASHOOT's posts I am convinced that is my problem. I don't want to start changing things until I verify the concentricity., and then one at the time if needed.

Last edited by shooting50; 02-06-2017 at 07:10 PM.
  #15  
Old 02-06-2017, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting50 View Post
I trimmed .030 off the base of the body die. A full stroke wouldn't bump the shoulder before bottoming out on the shell holder. Soooo I chucked it up in the lathe and cut .030 off the base of the body die. tight chamber on the Shilen barreled 22-250.
Sorry the great wonders of communicating by keyboard, I misunderstood.

Quote:
I'll challenge you to show me a difference in 1/10th grain of 38.5 grains of varget shooting crows
Used to hunt crows with a 1858 Remington new Army, but on the serious side, most rifles I've seen, worked on, etc seemed to have a sweet spot when it comes to a load. Wither or not yours does or doesn't. I can't say.

Quote:
I have tried it both ways crimp no crimp can't note any difference with the 221 or 22-250 so no crimp. I only crimp the 22 hornet
I've tested both SAAMI and military chambers, crimping actually does affect accuracy more in SAAMI chambers.

Quote:
rojkoh I don't have a lot of of flyers . I think my problem is an occasional concentricty issue. After reading IWANNASHOOT's posts I am convinced that is my problem. I don't want to start changing things until I verify the concentricity., and then one at the time if needed.
I hope it all works out and again, sometimes trying to run through these via keyboard doesn't work the way we'd like.

Last edited by rojkoh; 02-07-2017 at 01:28 AM.
  #16  
Old 02-06-2017, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Gets worse with age... my doctor asked me if I was pregnant!
I am not exactly a Spring chicken, and have noticed that it's nice to have a full belly, maybe a dessert, and a few minutes (hours?) after eating to decrease the caloric burn rate to minimum....

I still work on keeping in shape, after all, round is a shape.
  #17  
Old 02-06-2017, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting50 View Post
Who uses concentricity gauges to check for bullet run out? What brand? Ease of use, do you need three hands to operate it? and last but not least do you see improvements in your reloads, tighter groups, does it help eliminate flyers?
I see they start at about $100.00 bucks and go as high as the moon! I do not own one, and up until now do not think I have needed one.
I do the half rotate while seating. and for the most part think they are concentric. B U T shooting the 221 and 22 250 at distant crows I get an occasional miss that I question. Should've been a direct explosive hit, which I believe was a flyer.
I know I am still wet behind the ears" only been reloading about 45 years and I still hate chasing flyers. Too dad burn many variables to flyers.
If perfect straight line bullet-barrel alignment / concentricity / lack of "run-out" is required for accuracy then equally accurate, laser-straight alignment of the case supports AND the measuring device is required. Otherwise one may just as well simply roll the cartridge on a clean mirror and the run-out will immediately show.

The attachment is a locally made, 100% perfectly laser-aligned run-out measuring tool. Complete with the metric-imperial gauge it sells for the equivalent of $200. The manufacturer also has unique flashhole deburring, primer pocket resizing, COAL measuring, case neck expander tools and more.


Sorry, the .pdf file did not load. It can be seen here: http://www.mamba-reloading.co.za/Mam...ty%20meter.pdf
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 02-06-2017 at 11:21 PM.
  #18  
Old 02-07-2017, 12:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
If perfect straight line bullet-barrel alignment / concentricity / lack of "run-out" is required for accuracy then equally accurate, laser-straight alignment of the case supports AND the measuring device is required. Otherwise one may just as well simply roll the cartridge on a clean mirror and the run-out will immediately show.

The attachment is a locally made, 100% perfectly laser-aligned run-out measuring tool. Complete with the metric-imperial gauge it sells for the equivalent of $200. The manufacturer also has unique flashhole deburring, primer pocket resizing, COAL measuring, case neck expander tools and more.
Concentricity tools are common these days and I know only a few $200 or more . Concentricity and run out are discussed in the thing for Forster that's in a post above

The Forster which is less than half at the moment and is multi function including TIR

FORSTER CO-AX® CASE AND CARTRIDGE INSPECTOR | Brownells

The Hornady for slightly more:

HORNADY LOCK-N-LOAD CONCENTRICITY GAUGE | Brownells

The Sinclair a bit more

SINCLAIR INTERNATIONAL SINCLAIR CONCENTRICITY GAUGE | Brownells

For flash hole uniformers, I've found Roger at K&M makes the nicest I've used to date:

http://kmshooting.com/flash-hole-uni...niformers.html


For primer pockets, I still use my Fred Sinclair's original uniformer that's 30+ years old.
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Last edited by rojkoh; 02-07-2017 at 01:25 AM.
  #19  
Old 02-07-2017, 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by vic in va View Post
I am not exactly a Spring chicken, and have noticed that it's nice to have a full belly, maybe a dessert, and a few minutes (hours?) after eating to decrease the caloric burn rate to minimum....

I still work on keeping in shape, after all, round is a shape.
Yea, round doesn't work for me on a lot of levels, especially when I want to use my shooting jacket.

But, I use the old trick of not using the buckles over my gut!
  #20  
Old 02-07-2017, 02:18 AM
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I use a concentricity gauge to improve the quality of my handloads for varmint rifles. IMO, you don't need it for deer rifles.
What I found was kinda interesting when I started using it. One of the first things I found was that I owned a sizing die that was waaay out of concentric. I discovered that by measuring sized cases. A new sizing die later, a rifle that had always driven me nuts with its inconsistency became a tackdriver.
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