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  #1  
Old 11-06-2009, 04:22 PM
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Sierra Matchking bullet tips


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There is something that has been bothing me for years. I shoot the superb (supposedly superb) 168 gr .308 caliber Sierra match king bullet out of 2 of my 30-06's. The bullets are very accurate of course, but I have a concern about the construction of them. I have been using them for years, and have had new manufactured ones, from the past year and older ones, from at least 10 years ago, actually probably 15 or 20 years old I got from a person who sold out thier equipment when he stopped competing, and I see the same thing on all of them. The tip of the hollowpoint is really rough. If you look at the bullet from the side, across the tip You will see that its very uneven and jagged. Ive noticed alot of factory hunting ammo with deformed tips, new in box, and it not effect anything, but shouldnt a precsision built bullet have a "clean" tip? I cant imagine any way to correct it myself, with sandpaper or a fine file. I also shoot Speer 52 gr hollowpoints in my 22-250, and the tips of those bullets are perfectly smooth, as one would think they should be. I saw a military match bullet in a museum recently, and while I do not know the manufacturer of the bullet, it had a "star shaped" design at the open hollowpoint tip. It wasnt smooth and round, but was perfectly symetrical and even.... sorta like how some hollowpoints have grooves in them to aid in the "peddaling effect" during expansion. Also, a friend I have is a retired Marine Corps sniper (gulf war I vet) and when he saw My target ammo recently he asked what was wrong with my bullets, because the HP's they shot in the Marine corps were,nt ragged at the tip like My sierras. Do Us civilians get culls or something? I didnt think this small defect effected anything... does it? Whats the deal with the rough finish on them, anyone know?
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2009, 04:57 PM
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Call the Sierra bulletsmiths 800 # and ask the experts.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2009, 05:06 PM
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Google "MEPLAT TRIMMER". I believe Sinclair sells them. Looks like a case trimmer but it cuts back the bullet point to true it up. Drops the BC slightly.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2009, 07:07 PM
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Hollow Points with jagged edges frag all over creation on impact.
every point on the tip can theoreticly seperate into a seperate frag on impact depending on on whether or not its jacketed etc.
If you gave access to a gell block or a fielod with vouluntary varmints you can test this theory yourself
I rather do my own testing cuz it lets me shoot more.
If you ask them an accept it well you missed out again .
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2009, 07:17 PM
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Well I think the fact that the Sierras are accurate tells us the bullet nose is not all that important to accuracy. Or, at least the amount of deformation that you are seeing, is not really significant. More might cause a problem; less apparently not worth the trouble for mass-production bullets?

That's my take on it
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2009, 06:48 AM
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I remember reading of an experiment (I believe in one of my reloading manuals) were they purposely deformed the nose of bullets to see the effect on accuracy. It made very little difference.

Then they deformed the base of the bullet. Made a BIG difference.

Cheezywan
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  #7  
Old 11-07-2009, 09:13 AM
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Couple Of The Guys........

........in the above beat me to it. It makes NO diff whatsoever.

I have gotten tons of the 168's,190's, and others, straight from the factory. They are the same as right from the box,the tip looks somewhat uneven. This, to a smaller than small degree. The accuracy is completely unaffected.Keep using 'em with no ill effects.

Also,if someone tells you that you can't use the SMK's for hunting,tell them that they are full of bull. I have killed dozens of animals over the years with the SMK's. To me,they penetrate and open just like the SGK's. I have taken deer with the 190's and 220's coming outta my .30-378 justa screamin', and 168's and 190's outta my .308 and the wife's .30-30AI just over 2000. Put the bullet where it's supposed to be and it will do the job for you.

If you or someone you know can ever make it out to the factory(Sedalia,Mo.),take a gallon milk jug and tell 'em to "fill 'er up". -----pruhdlr
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  #8  
Old 11-07-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruhdlr View Post
Also,if someone tells you that you can't use the SMK's for hunting,tell them that they are full of bull. I have killed dozens of animals over the years with the SMK's. To me,they penetrate and open just like the SGK's. I have taken deer with the 190's and 220's coming outta my .30-378 justa screamin', and 168's and 190's outta my .308 and the wife's .30-30AI just over 2000. Put the bullet where it's supposed to be and it will do the job for you.pruhdlr
I think subbing a MK for a GK is a bad idea. Your cartridges have a bit of "overkill" built into them for deer. Your bullet placement is what makes them work as well as they do IMO.

The matchkings reputation is almost a legend for accurrcy. Gameking is not far behind that.

I "do" use the MK for varmits though!

Cheezywan
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2009, 07:01 PM
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"but shouldnt a precsision built bullet have a "clean" tip?"

Maybe. Past 600 yards or so. But not a lot even then.
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2009, 07:18 PM
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So far everyone basically agrees that the deformed tips on MK bullets doesnt effect accuracy, at least not measurable accuracy at close to mid ranges.... Id heard/been told by different folks that the bullet tip had to be perfect, but thought better personally. BTW, I may well be calling Siearra and asking just this question, just to see what they will say, they have been very cooperative in the past with Me, good folks there. I know people who have hunter with MK's, most all did just fine on animals up to white tail size... Im confident they would knock em down just fine, but choose to use GK or better for animals, I believe in good clean, HUMANE kills too much to chance using target bullets. Ive lost wounded animals before (VERY few thankfully) and its an awful feeling.
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  #11  
Old 11-08-2009, 03:40 AM
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Re Phoncon

When you call Sierra and talk to a(the right) rep,ask them the diff twix a SMK and a SGK. Ask them the specifics. See what their reaction is.

Questions like :::::
*jacket thickness
*hardness of lead used
*type/hardness of brass used
*meplat
*ojive
*boat tail angle AND design
*base meplate AND design
*diff in their QA process(weight and length variances)
*bullets SD and BC
*packaging and price

Remembering how the NosBalTip's got a bad(ish)rep from the end user either not using them as they were designed to be used, or the many variables of the gun,speed,bbl twist rates,and mainly,shot placement.

Let us know what you find out pls. -----pruhdlr
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  #12  
Old 11-08-2009, 04:29 AM
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" ..everyone basically agrees that the deformed tips on MK bullets doesnt effect accuracy, at least not measurable accuracy at close to mid ranges...."

Yeah. Consider that many will be spinning around 180,000 rpms (that's a LOT!), so the spin kinda negates tiny imperfections so close to the center axis.
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  #13  
Old 11-08-2009, 05:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruhdlr View Post
When you call Sierra and talk to a(the right) rep,ask them the diff twix a SMK and a SGK. Ask them the specifics. See what their reaction is.

Questions like :::::
*jacket thickness
*hardness of lead used
*type/hardness of brass used
*meplat
*ojive
*boat tail angle AND design
*base meplate AND design
*diff in their QA process(weight and length variances)
*bullets SD and BC
*packaging and price

Remembering how the NosBalTip's got a bad(ish)rep from the end user either not using them as they were designed to be used, or the many variables of the gun,speed,bbl twist rates,and mainly,shot placement.

Let us know what you find out pls. -----pruhdlr
I will post back what they say about the tip imperfections, and anything else I can think to ask em about GK vs. MK bullet construction but Im far from being an expert ballistician and will get lost easily asking questions concerning SD and BC ect, hehe. I sorta know what BC is, and do understand different kinds of lead/copper jacket bonding and jacket thickness. I do use GK bullets in one hunting load I have, otherwise I use different manufactures bullets for hunting like Hornady and Speer. Ive found that, ON AVERAGE, Hornady hunting bullets are more accurate, at least in my collection of rifles =) Wishing you all a good start to your week

S_B
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Last edited by SHY_BEAR; 11-08-2009 at 05:28 PM.
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  #14  
Old 11-08-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pruhdlr View Post

If you or someone you know can ever make it out to the factory(Sedalia,Mo.),take a gallon milk jug and tell 'em to "fill 'er up". -----pruhdlr


woops, just caught this in your first post. What do they charge to fill up a gallon jug with bullets? I sometimes travel to MO for family gatherings...
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  #15  
Old 11-08-2009, 07:40 PM
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The shock wave of a bullet travelling above the speed of sound actually starts in front of the tip of the bullet. It doesn't start at the tip. Now once it drops below the speed of sound then the tip shape will make alot of differance, but the buffeting endured from the transition from sonic to sub-sonic will cause more problems anyway.
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  #16  
Old 11-09-2009, 05:46 PM
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Didnt have time to put the call in today, worked a lil OT, and had no lunch break to call. Im gunna try tomorrow, or next day if Im too busy. I was thinking though, sometimes I see lines scratched into the SIDEs of a bullet when its been chambered, not fired, and cycled on through the action to unload. Since the tip deformation doesnt effect accuracy, could the scratches on the side from running one through the action effect accuracy? Maybe Im splitting hairs, but well, Ive spent too much money (as im sure we all have) on target rifles not to get the most accuracy from em... whats Your thoughts on the damage from cycling the action?

S_B
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Old 11-10-2009, 03:30 AM
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Think Not(kinda,maybe,probably)

When a friend and I went to Sierra to get bullets,they sold them by the pound. Only certain bullets on certain days or even hours of the workday. I remember that we had to spend an extra night in order to get some 7mm's the next AM.

We took Tupperware containers of all sizes and the bullets came down a chute to fill the containers. You could tell them when to "STOP". They were sold by weight(total) and not each. At that time we got .224's,.244's,.284's,and .308's. IIRC we got close to 250lbs and dived them up when we got home. I kept about 70lbs of mostly .308's. Still have some 168's and 190's to this day. Price ?? Can't remember, but do remember the savings (per bullet,over the 50 or 100rd box,was HUGE)

I feel that ANY deformation in the "perfect" shape of a bullet will cause some inaccuracy. Especially the further out from it's rapidly spinning axis.IOW, the further down the ojive from the tip the deformation is,the more impact on accuracy it has.

BUT......and this is a huge,BUT.....how much ???? That is the gazillion dollar question. I say....for practical purposes,not much at all.

Think about it. Even the most carefully loaded and chambered bullet gets a real thrashin' when it slams into the lands. Granted,it's not really up to speed yet but it also has NO revs on it. On it's travels down 24 inches of bbl it gets up to speed and revs to the tune of 4X the speed of sound AND a quarter million revs(or so). Even if the bullet to barrel seal is a tight one,as the bearing surface of the bullet barely passes the end of the muzzle,the bullet gets another blast of burning powder to the tune of 1000+ degrees. Then....the bullet is supposed to go exactly where were have the cross hairs of our scope fixed on.

I say....given the imperfections of atmosphere,scope,weapon,and especially the shooter, the very least of our worries should be the minor flaws in a unloaded bullet. If it ain't visibly frigged up,load it and shoot it. If it don't hit where it's supposed to hit,first,blame the shooter. -----pruhdlr
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  #18  
Old 11-10-2009, 10:07 AM
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OK, I just spoke with the Sierra tech. First Question : Why are the tips imperfect on Match Kings? Answer: The copper the jackets are made of comes to them in rolls, similar to paper towels, and these are lubed, drawn to proper thickness and pressed through molds to form the cup, when the bullet tip is formed during this molding process, the minute differences in amounts of lube(lube for running them through the mold) around the diameter of the bullet, AND the tiny differences in the make up of the metal around the diameter of the bullet as the tip is formed allows small bits of jacket material to protrude up or down (looking across the tip) more or less than in other areas around the very tip of said bullet.

Second Question: I ask what was the basic differences in the construction of Game King and Match King. The primary diff is jacket thickness, with the Game King getting the thicker jacket for a more controlled expansion, and "SOME" lead core hardness differences, but mostly the jacket thickness.

OK, there is my lil report on the question I asked. The tech did tell me that the deformed tip question is very common there, and that some folks get quite bent out of shape (he used the word irrate) about the ugly tips, but I was assured, as you folks have said, that it makes ZERO effect upon accuracy.

Also, I got the formula for figuring bullet RPMs from any bullet from him. It is, the muzzle velovity multiplied by 720, and then divided by the twist rate. Using my 30-06 target rifle for example, I get 2750 fps from my target load, so 2750 X 720= 1,980,000 then 1,980,000 / 10 = 198,000 RPMs!!!! Thats pretty dizzy isnt it, two hundred THOUSAND rpms, lol!
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  #19  
Old 11-10-2009, 09:50 PM
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Over the years I have purchased a lot of Sierra culls that had deformed tips. I usually tumble them for 30 minutes in a spare tumbler that has steel slingshot balls in it. That uniforms the tips and cleans up any other problems. The bullets are reasonably accurate. My experience with 5.56mm and .308 match Sierras has been a very good one. The bullets have been of uniformly high quality. Culls on the other hand tend to be all over the place but my tumbling routine takes care of that.
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