Neck sizing questions - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree40Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 01-08-2017, 09:23 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN.
Posts: 319
Neck sizing questions


Registered Users do not see the above ad.


I hand load for several calibers: .243/7M-08/30-06 and likely .223 in the near future. I routinely full length resize although I only have one rifle per caliber. I understand that neck sizing only may extend brass life and possibly improve accuracy.

Am I correct that to neck size only with full length dies simply requires a less than full stroke of the sizing die? May I ask for some guidance here on how one actually does implement a neck size only technique?

Thank you
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-08-2017, 09:31 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 5,853
Simply back the FL die off the shell holder about the thickness of a nickle and size as normal. The case BODY is tapered so only touches at the very end. The neck is cylindrical so your die will size all but that nickle's worth of space.
Marshal Kane and blueeyes like this.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-08-2017, 10:02 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,638
Further, you could use a nickel as a spacer to set your FL die up. That way, is repeatable next time you size a batch.

Cheezywan
Reply With Quote
 
  #4  
Old 01-08-2017, 02:31 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,212
There's a way to do this that's a bit more precise which takes all the guess work out of the equation.

I start with the die backed off the shell holder enough so as to not alter head to datum line shoulder orientation, or head space as it applies to chamber fit. If you start with the die adjusted too far down the shoulders will get pushed up, thus forcing you to FL resize / bump shoulders in order for the brass to fit the chamber, thus defeating the purpose. Once you have the FL die properly adjusted it should push the shoulders up only as much as needed on those pieces of brass that aren't fully formed, yet size only as much neck and body as needed on the fully formed brass. Document head to datum line shoulder on formed brass and the die measurement to make future sizing operations go much quicker and consistent.

Now the other reason I partial size in this fashion is so I can leave that area just above the shoulder formed to the chamber, this can help provide better neck to bore alignment which can help accuracy. And of course, this also minimizes over working of the brass.

SMOA
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-09-2017, 08:51 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN.
Posts: 319
Thank you folks...Brad
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-09-2017, 09:34 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mooresville, IN
Posts: 11,756
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad4 View Post
I hand load for several calibers: .243/7M-08/30-06 and likely .223 in the near future. I routinely full length resize although I only have one rifle per caliber. I understand that neck sizing only may extend brass life and possibly improve accuracy.

Am I correct that to neck size only with full length dies simply requires a less than full stroke of the sizing die?

May I ask for some guidance here on how one actually does implement a neck size only technique?

Thank you
The FL die can be adjusted to not bump the shoulder, which "usually" results in a portion of the neck being sized, but not the case body.

In addition to the techniques explained above, one can always buy a neck-sizing die, which simplifies the process greatly.

Having used a FL die to partially size case necks, and using a dedicated neck-sizing die, I can say that it's much easier to just get the neck die.

Last edited by broom_jm; 01-09-2017 at 09:45 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-09-2017, 07:18 PM
TMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upper Black Eddy, PA
Posts: 4,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad4 View Post
I understand that neck sizing only may extend brass life and possibly improve accuracy.
Well, some pretty accomplished guys have already commented, but I have to ask, what are you trying to accomplish?

I have used neck sizing in the past for bench rest loads/competition.
It's good for Trail Boss reduced loads, for shooting at bowling pins.
If you are shooting a lever gun with cast bullets, neck sizing with .30-30 brass can help with eternal brass life.

If you neck size top end loads with a belted magnum, it's gonna be a problem.
Neck sizing loads for your AR, not.

It's great, useless, depending.
__________________
No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms.
>>> Thomas Jefferson

Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:46 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 307
Another way is to use two separate dies one for just the neck like a Lee collet die and one for just the body and shoulder bump like a Redding body die . That simplifies the whole die setup and when you do have to body size you don't have to touch the neck and vice versa . Also you don't have to move adjustment of any of the dies as you will when you have to full length resize and neck size with the one die . The best place for an old full length size die is in the garbage bin .
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:24 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Country View Post
The best place for an old full length size die is in the garbage bin .
I use multiple die's, but prior to buying neck die's, colet die's, body die's, special colet die's for belted cartridges just to name a few. But for the first 8 or 10 years all I had were my RCBS FL die's and I had no problem getting my brass to go 12- 15 loads, and that's even with stout charges, so I find it almost offensive when someone says the best place for a FL is in the garbage can. To imply such isn't exactly healthy instructional material to be exposing new reloaders to, and I'd bet there's more than just a few other old timer's who'd agree with me on that. If one takes the time to document die adjustments, as we should, it only takes a couple minutes to set them up for either partial sizing or FL work, just got know what you're doing.

SMOA
TMan, Bird Dog II, rdhem2 and 2 others like this.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:27 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 5,853
I've been reloading since 1959 and have never found a need of anything BUT a full length sizing die, BUT, I don't reload for factory chambers. I guess that's what all the gadgets are for.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-10-2017, 10:27 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Lovettsville, VA
Posts: 2,425
When partial sizing, check to see the case will fit in the chamber and also case length. I have had some dies that will squish the brass up in some way that it would not fit the chamber until it was FL sized. Also had some that lengthened the case until it was FL sized.

Like broom_jim said, just getting the neck size die is best.
William A. Reed and Submoa like this.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-10-2017, 11:18 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,638
I've collected an assortment of machine washers of various thickness's that I use to set-up my FL dies such that they size the neck only to the depth that the bullet is to go into the case for a particular rifle. Case life is real good. Might trim twice, then the need to seems to go away (mostly).

Cheezywan
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:15 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NSW
Posts: 307
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submoa View Post
I use multiple die's, but prior to buying neck die's, colet die's, body die's, special colet die's for belted cartridges just to name a few. But for the first 8 or 10 years all I had were my RCBS FL die's and I had no problem getting my brass to go 12- 15 loads, and that's even with stout charges, so I find it almost offensive when someone says the best place for a FL is in the garbage can. To imply such isn't exactly healthy instructional material to be exposing new reloaders to, and I'd bet there's more than just a few other old timer's who'd agree with me on that. If one takes the time to document die adjustments, as we should, it only takes a couple minutes to set them up for either partial sizing or FL work, just got know what you're doing.

SMOA
To each his own . However 12 to 15 reloads is half of what I get . There is far more advantages to using separate dies including the body die than using the old full length sizer .
I did not mean to be offensive but I also find it offensive when you infer I don't know what I am doing . You could not be more wrong when you say it's not good instructional material as you are the one that is out of date and still using black powder days equipment .
I made my first body dies from full length dies back in 1966 and have never looked back .
Use what ever you like but the best place for old technology is in the garbage bin or convert it to work better.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-10-2017, 02:49 PM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 32,348
Or learn how to adjust it better. It is so easy to set up a full-length die to exactly match the chamber that I am continually amazed people won't do it. 5 extra minutes of work? Nah....
rdhem2, Submoa, JBelk and 1 others like this.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-10-2017, 03:40 PM
recoil junky's Avatar
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Craig CO. Elk Hunting Capitol of the World!
Posts: 6,732
To neck or not to neck, that is the question. Well kinda. Lots of ways to go about achieving the same end result. The most important thing is what works for you and gets you the desired results.

I "neck size only" all my bottle neck cases from .222 Rem through 35 Whelen. If there is a doubt, EMPTY neck sized only cases get cycled through the particular rifle to make sure they "fit". Particular attention is paid to "hunting rifles" like the M99 in .358. My lever guns seem to be more finicky than others and I can't tell you why. Maybe it's because I only have two.

I was chatting with a co-worker today about this very thing and his take on it is that his brass life is extended by full length resizing, but he only shoots "hi-end" brass (Norma, Nosler, Lapua). Okay, so I proceeded to make my point that I shoot "lo-end" brass, Winchester, Remington and Federal. We both anneal every 4th or 5th reloading, both of us shoot less than maximum loads and we both get about the same amount of loadings for a given cartridge.

Then we started to talk about case failures. He's got a 6 XC (?) that he shoots prairie dogs with and he was telling me he gets case failures (case separation) in 4-5 reloadings with Norma (I think that's what he said) brass (10 per 100) while I've only ever had one partial separation on a piece of RP 35 Whelen brass. Cracked necks, yes we've both had our share I guess.

This guy can shoot the wings off a gnat at 250 yards with regularity doing it his way shooting custom built rifles, while I usually splatter the gnat using out of the box, bone stock rifles. Not as accurate maybe, but the same end result, so . . . . . . . . .

Is he wrong and I'm right or am I wrong and is he right.

I neck size because it's what my Dad did with antiquated, black powder days equipment and it's how I still do it only some of my equipment is 50 years newer than what Dad used.

Confused yet?

So, to get to the point (finally), try it both ways. It's my opinion that yes you will see longer brass life and better accuracy.

RJ
William A. Reed, broom_jm and opus like this.
__________________
Keep your powder dry and when you go afield take the kids and please..........wear your seat belts.
I am the ORIGINAL recoil junky , often imitated, but never equalled.
Proud Father of a SoldierMedic in The 82nd Airborne 325thAIR White Falcons
IUOE Local #9
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 01-11-2017, 07:47 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Minneapolis, MN.
Posts: 319
Whoa!!! I didn't intend to unleash the demonic opinion beast...just an intermediate reloader asking a "simple" question that clearly has multiple perspectives. I load middle upper of the published range of data exclusively for hunting purposes beyond periodic new load experimentation/sighting in. Realistically I probably load on the order of 50-75 rounds per caliber per year so I consider myself a "low" production level of activity...nothing like hundreds of rounds for prairie dogs etc.

Thanks to all for continuing my education.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-11-2017, 08:53 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 5,853
Brass becomes 'work-hardened' by moving around on the molecular level. The less it moves the better. Tight necked chambers regularly fire twenty rounds from the same case.

IF a case is going to fail, I want it to fail in the neck not the body. I don't even anneal cases. When they split (usually on sizing) they're thrown away. The case is the gas seal and I'm not going to save a dime and risk an eye to keep something so cheap on life support past its working life.

A brass case changes every time you shoot it. The higher the pressure the more the change. Some changes you can see and even measure, some you can't. Play it safe, that cartridge case is the only thing between you and the explosion happening inches in front of your face.
Coffinhauler and golong like this.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:54 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Deary, Ideeeeho
Posts: 1,878
Brad,

A "P.M." is headed your way.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Rocky Mtns, CO
Posts: 4
Quote:
I understand that neck sizing only may extend brass life and possibly improve accuracy.
You don't mention if you anneal your case necks or not. You can gain more case life by annealing your case necks, than you can by simply neck sizing instead of full length sizing (provided you know how to set up your sizing die and are moving the shoulder back the minimal amount)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:07 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Owensboro,Kentucky
Posts: 155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Submoa View Post
I use multiple die's, but prior to buying neck die's, colet die's, body die's, special colet die's for belted cartridges just to name a few. But for the first 8 or 10 years all I had were my RCBS FL die's and I had no problem getting my brass to go 12- 15 loads, and that's even with stout charges, so I find it almost offensive when someone says the best place for a FL is in the garbage can. To imply such isn't exactly healthy instructional material to be exposing new reloaders to, and I'd bet there's more than just a few other old timer's who'd agree with me on that. If one takes the time to document die adjustments, as we should, it only takes a couple minutes to set them up for either partial sizing or FL work, just got know what you're doing.

SMOA
I full length all hunting loads..
fguffey likes this.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Brass organization and consistent neck tension jakesnake66 Handloading Procedures/Practices 3 07-20-2016 04:15 AM
Neck Sizing Problems with Different Brass The Bolt Man Handloading Procedures/Practices 16 11-17-2013 12:28 PM
help neck sizing problem petejj Handloading Procedures/Practices 6 05-09-2010 07:31 AM
Neck Sizing Dilemma mikeinkennesaw Handloading Procedures/Practices 3 03-25-2008 05:42 PM
Neck sizing question Kermit Handloading Procedures/Practices 10 03-24-2008 06:30 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:45 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1