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  #21  
Old 01-22-2017, 12:30 PM
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And if you really want to find out if the length is the issue - then just file a little off the tips of the Bergers. Shoot a group with 0.025" off, then 0.050" off, and so on.

Might be eye-opening.
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  #22  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:42 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
OK so first of all, MEASURE the twist of your barrel. There is a tolerance. I emailed Shilen about this and they said their tolerance was plus or minus a quarter inch. That's for their button-rifled barrels with their processes and quality control.

Somebody else might be better - somebody else might be worse. MEASURE. I have three "1-10" barrels for different .25 cal guns. One is exactly 10", one is about 10.1", and the other is about 10 3/8."

Anyway - a slight difference in bullet length can make a lot of difference. I was working up a load with Beartooth 335gr. bullets in my .444 and not getting real good groups. Finally noticed one of the bullet holes in the target wasn't quite round. What to do? I put some of the bullets in my lathe and turned about 0.050" off the noses; that left me with a 325gr. or so bullet. Stability problems went away!

0.050" was all it took, for that instance.
MikeG, glad to hear from you. Your expertise is much appreciated.

I did measure the actual twist rate and it measured exactly 1 turn in 10.0". I checked it 3 times, just to make sure there was no slippage, and it measured the same every time. As I stated earlier I believe that this barrel is a factory installed Hart barrel. It shot so well that years ago I bought an identical, brand new, never installed factory replacement barrel. That barrel had the Hart Barrels stamp on the breech face. It goes a long way in explaining why the barrel shoots so well for a factory barrel of that era.
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  #23  
Old 01-22-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
And if you really want to find out if the length is the issue - then just file a little off the tips of the Bergers. Shoot a group with 0.025" off, then 0.050" off, and so on.

Might be eye-opening.
Hadn't considered that. I certainly will give it a shot... or 30. Thanks MikeG.
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  #24  
Old 01-22-2017, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by SMK-1000plus View Post
MikeG, glad to hear from you. Your expertise is much appreciated.

I did measure the actual twist rate and it measured exactly 1 turn in 10.0". I checked it 3 times, just to make sure there was no slippage, and it measured the same every time. As I stated earlier I believe that this barrel is a factory installed Hart barrel. It shot so well that years ago I bought an identical, brand new, never installed factory replacement barrel. That barrel had the Hart Barrels stamp on the breech face. It goes a long way in explaining why the barrel shoots so well for a factory barrel of that era.
I have 243 with 24" 1/10 twist Kreiger barrel and 243AI with 27" 1/10 twist Hart barrel.

You need to read this article from Berger
Twist RAte Stability Calculator Updated | Berger Bullets Blog
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  #25  
Old 01-22-2017, 06:32 PM
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Best 'o luck. I suspect that there are 'other' factors that influence bullet stability when you get on the ragged edge. Such as, the condition of the crown, whether the bullets exit at an 'accuracy node,' (per the OCW theory of load development), how straight the bullets are seated in the cases, the phase of the moon, how much coffee you drank that day, and so on. Remember the 'twist' has to overcome any instability, and there are factors that influence how stable the bullet is right as it exits the muzzle. Anything that makes the bullet 'less stable' might cause it to 'use up' some of the rate of twist and a combination of factors might put it over the edge in one rifle, but not in another.

That is not a real scientific explanation, but sometimes odd things happen that defy explanation. Just thinking out loud why 'rifle A' works with a particular load and 'rifle B' does not.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Best 'o luck. I suspect that there are 'other' factors that influence bullet stability when you get on the ragged edge. Such as, the condition of the crown, whether the bullets exit at an 'accuracy node,' (per the OCW theory of load development), how straight the bullets are seated in the cases, the phase of the moon, how much coffee you drank that day, and so on. Remember the 'twist' has to overcome any instability, and there are factors that influence how stable the bullet is right as it exits the muzzle. Anything that makes the bullet 'less stable' might cause it to 'use up' some of the rate of twist and a combination of factors might put it over the edge in one rifle, but not in another.

That is not a real scientific explanation, but sometimes odd things happen that defy explanation. Just thinking out loud why 'rifle A' works with a particular load and 'rifle B' does not.

So your answer is tell poster "just file a little off the tips of the Bergers. Shoot a group with 0.025" off, then 0.050" off, and so on". If you have problem with what I post which I didn't write, you should get hold of Bryan Litz tell how you do it.
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  #27  
Old 01-22-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Best 'o luck. I suspect that there are 'other' factors that influence bullet stability when you get on the ragged edge. Such as, the condition of the crown, whether the bullets exit at an 'accuracy node,' (per the OCW theory of load development), how straight the bullets are seated in the cases, the phase of the moon, how much coffee you drank that day, and so on. Remember the 'twist' has to overcome any instability, and there are factors that influence how stable the bullet is right as it exits the muzzle. Anything that makes the bullet 'less stable' might cause it to 'use up' some of the rate of twist and a combination of factors might put it over the edge in one rifle, but not in another.

That is not a real scientific explanation, but sometimes odd things happen that defy explanation. Just thinking out loud why 'rifle A' works with a particular load and 'rifle B' does not.
I know all that sounds like a bunch of voodoo but, there may be more truth to this than most may realize MikeG... Funny how the outcome of so many things sometimes vary greatly by what seems to be the slightest of details.
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  #28  
Old 01-22-2017, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by old roper View Post
I have 243 with 24" 1/10 twist Kreiger barrel and 243AI with 27" 1/10 twist Hart barrel.

You need to read this article from Berger
Twist RAte Stability Calculator Updated | Berger Bullets Blog
Thanks old roper. That is the twist rate calculator that I always go to first.

Bryan Litz is a true genius and has done more to advance the science of long range shooting in the past 10 years than anyone else has in history. Just MHO.
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  #29  
Old 01-23-2017, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by old roper View Post
So your answer is tell poster "just file a little off the tips of the Bergers. Shoot a group with 0.025" off, then 0.050" off, and so on". If you have problem with what I post which I didn't write, you should get hold of Bryan Litz tell how you do it.
Sure, if you want to find out if your particular barrel will stabilize a bullet that is slightly shorter. I don't see the harm in trying.....
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  #30  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:04 PM
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The Hornady 105 HPBT will stabilize in a 10 twist. I shoot it all the time here in Va at nearly sea level. It's BC is pretty danged good as well.
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  #31  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:31 PM
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.243 loads

I have an old Remington Model 7. I've always assumed a 1:10 twist. The new ones on the remington website say in .243 the twist rate is 1:9 3/8

Shooting Federal Brass, CCI standard Large Rifle Primers, 36.5gr IMR4350 and 100gr Nosler Partitions. At 200yds I get 2.3" groups. That's been killing lots of deer for me. I ran out of Partitions and tried a box of Accubonds. With the same loading, I get under 2" groups at 200 yards and they kill deer just as effectively. it did require a scope adjustment down 3 clicks to bring this bullet back to zero. Windage did not require an adjustment.

You are right to poke the folks on this forum for information but you must invest in the load development, carefully record your results and make an informed decision based on those results. All rifles shoot the same loads differently. Some slightly different, and some significantly different. Developing the right load is neither cheap nor quick. But when done properly it is well worth it.

In deer camp, when being entered into the camp roster the leader would always enter Daisy BB under the caliber after my name, Daisy BB always went home with venison.
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  #32  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:55 PM
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Lots of interesting reading and discussion.

Talking about 243 bullets-anyone have any Nosler Zipedos 75 gr )or any other) cluttering up the bench they would like to be rid of. Those bullets are(were) a hot item in late 60s.
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  #33  
Old 01-25-2017, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SMK-1000plus View Post
Hello guys, looking for some guidance from your experience, on heavy, higher BC bullet choices in 243 Winchester with a 1 in 10" twist, 22" barrel. It is a post 64' push-feed Winchester Featherweight with what seems to be a factory installed Hart barrel. It groups 5 Hornady Custom 100gr SPBT Interlocks @ 1/2 MOA routinely but, I'd like to hand load for this rifle and the 100gr Interlocks are often unavailable. Even though I know it needs at least a 1 in 8" twist barrel for what I want to with it, I can't bring myself to rebarrel it shooting 1/2 MOA and having a very low round count on this barrel.

I'm certain that this topic has been discussed previously on the forum but, several searches failed to yeild any pertinent results on this topic.

I've tried the 105gr Bergers, but they failed to stabilize and where keyholing at 200 yards. Most groups would have several complete misses of the 8"x10" targets at 100 yards. No fault of the Bergers, just not enough twist in this rifle. I've had exceptional accuracy in many calibers with Berger bullets.

I've used a couple of stability calculators but, they only suggest 87gr as the heaviest BT bullet given my shooting conditions. I'm hoping to push that a little heavier. Winter conditions are to cover: Altitude=Sea-level (+0 to 40 feet), Temp=28F, Humidity=50%, Barometric Pressure =30.28 in/Hg. These loads will be for targets out to 880 yards, but hope to develop the load, or a sister load for hunting out to 300 yards.

Your experience and thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
There are some 90 and 95 grain bullet on the market that might work for you. I am having a problem getting 105 grain bullets to shoot well out of my 243 at 600 yards and my barrel is a 1:8" twist.
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  #34  
Old 01-26-2017, 06:40 AM
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Remington 700ADL .243

I once owned a Remington 700ADL in .243 and really loved it. It was an extremely accurate rifle but favored only one bullet weight to maintain that accuracy. That was an 85gr Sierra HPBT. I once killed a groundhog at about 350 yds. All I could see of him was his head and shoulders when he stood up because of a rise in the ground between me and him. I fired and he disappeared but I didn't know if I'd hit him or not but I didn't see him stand up anymore. I paced off the distance over the cut soy bean field and found him with a missing head. I was amazed and of course delighted with the shot. After moving to Colorado, I wanted to give the rifle to my son for hunting mule deer, but would of course need a heavier bullet for that. I first tried a commercial 110gr load with very disappointing results; poor grouping, occasional keyholeing, etc. I then tried several combinations of hand loads with the same poor results. I just couldn't make it group with the same amazing accuracy that the 85 grain hand loads had always gotten me. After much trial and error with the heavier bullets, I gave up, sold the gun and let him use my 6.5x55 Swede, which has always been the proverbial tack driver and a better all around rifle round anyway. He was successful on several mulie hunts and took two elk with it as well. So, good luck with the heavier bullets in the .243. Surely there is a loading out there somewhere that will work for you and I probably gave up on it too soon.
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  #35  
Old 01-26-2017, 12:22 PM
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243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices

I have used Hornady 100 gr. BTSP in my Remington 700 BDL 1 in 10 barrel for over 20 years for hunting. The rifle will still shot under 1 M.O.A. It will also shot SMK 95 gr. very well. For any thing heaver or long range bullets I us my Remington 700 VSSF rebarreled to .243 1 in 9 twist. Wish I had went to 1 in 8 for real heavy long range bullets.
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  #36  
Old 02-09-2017, 11:07 AM
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I have an older short barrel Remington Model 7 which is a 1:10 twist. It didn't like my 100gr Nosler Partitions until I switched powder to IMR4350. Now it is a tack driver. 3/4" at 200yds from a lead sled on a bench. Good in a cross wind too. I didn't expect to be able to get that kind of accuracy out of a factory short barrel. Fiddling with bullet seating depth and making concentricity as exact as I could make it got me there. partitions are not known for being match grade performers. I guess I got lucky.
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