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Old 01-22-2017, 04:51 AM
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243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices


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Hello guys, looking for some guidance from your experience, on heavy, higher BC bullet choices in 243 Winchester with a 1 in 10" twist, 22" barrel. It is a post 64' push-feed Winchester Featherweight with what seems to be a factory installed Hart barrel. It groups 5 Hornady Custom 100gr SPBT Interlocks @ 1/2 MOA routinely but, I'd like to hand load for this rifle and the 100gr Interlocks are often unavailable. Even though I know it needs at least a 1 in 8" twist barrel for what I want to with it, I can't bring myself to rebarrel it shooting 1/2 MOA and having a very low round count on this barrel.

I'm certain that this topic has been discussed previously on the forum but, several searches failed to yeild any pertinent results on this topic.

I've tried the 105gr Bergers, but they failed to stabilize and where keyholing at 200 yards. Most groups would have several complete misses of the 8"x10" targets at 100 yards. No fault of the Bergers, just not enough twist in this rifle. I've had exceptional accuracy in many calibers with Berger bullets.

I've used a couple of stability calculators but, they only suggest 87gr as the heaviest BT bullet given my shooting conditions. I'm hoping to push that a little heavier. Winter conditions are to cover: Altitude=Sea-level (+0 to 40 feet), Temp=28°F, Humidity=50%, Barometric Pressure =30.28 in/Hg. These loads will be for targets out to 880 yards, but hope to develop the load, or a sister load for hunting out to 300 yards.

Your experience and thoughts will be greatly appreciated.
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Old 01-22-2017, 05:32 AM
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Scroll to the bottom of the page to the Similar Threads section and click on the couple of previous threads discussing the 243. Might find some answers there.
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Old 01-22-2017, 05:37 AM
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"I've tried the 105gr Bergers, but they failed to stabilize and where keyholing at 200 yards. Most groups would have several complete misses of the 8"x10" targets at 100 yards. No fault of the Bergers, just not enough twist in this rifle. I've had exceptional accuracy in many calibers with Berger bullets."

SMK, There is no way that a 1:10" rate of rifling twist will stabilise a 100gr bullet and give you 1/2 MOA, and with a 105gr will cause such divergence as you describe. My Sako Mod 85 had a 1:10" and I only shot PMP 105gr flat base, round nose bullets in it and it was a .5 MOA shooter. Did blesbok culling with it, doing brain shots out to 250 yards.

When a bullet wobbles in flight it is not an indication of being unstable. Instability shows when complete tumbling takes place. The totally divergent nature of the Bergers' flight path point to nothing else but the Bergers. Inconsistent mass distribution in either the coronal or transverse plane of a bullet is the main cause of wobbling and a faster twist rate will merely exacerbate that.

Twist rate calculators used in the USA are notoriously pessimistically biased and many shooters believe in the figures these spit out. As an example, I was quite severely reprimanded in this forum for advising a poster to use 180gr bullets in his 1:12" .308W. The condescending teacher was adamant that it is settled science that a 1:12" twist rate can not stabilise any heavier than a 150-165gr bullet at the velocity indicated. When I told him that the same rifle perfectly stabilises and accurately shoots a 220gr bullet at 2,250 ft/sec out to 200 yards it was almost cause for an international conflict.

I distrust the mass distribution in those Bergers.
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Old 01-22-2017, 06:26 AM
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MusgraveMan, while I admire and respect both your knowledge and experience, I assure you that this rifle shoots 5 round groups of Hornady 100gr SPBT Interlock bullets, Lot#: 3101001 routinely @ 1/2 MOA (usually fired from 200 yards). I buy factory ammunition by the case to insure matching lot #s for consistency and I still have a little over a case and a half of this lot. I also handload a lot, in many chamberings. I further assure you that that the 105gr .243 dia. Berger bullets are keyholing at 200 yards out of this same rifle. I too found it hard to believe but, personal experience has me believing.

Your experience with your 1 in 10" twist 243 Win. may surely have been different. I have several 1 in 9" twist .223 Rem rifles. Two will stabilize 77gr SMKs and shoot accurately out to 800 yards, three others keyhole @ 300 yards on the same day! Evidently 1 in 9" twist is right at the borderline of stabilizing these bullets under my shooting conditions. The same must be true of this 243 Win. I have actually measured the twist and it is true 1 in 10.0".

Have you tried any 95gr bullets from your 243 Win? If so, how did they perform?
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:35 AM
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Hey friend, I never doubted the groups with the 100gr bullets,in fact that is exactly normal.

Exactly because of that normal situation it is my opinion that the fault that causes the dispersion in trajectories of the 105 gr bullets is not with your rifle's twist.

I shot everything from 87gr (I think that was the actual weight of the South African PMP bullets), 95, 100 and 105gr, looking for the heaviest bullet that would still be accurate.

The 105gr at 3030 ft/sec was as accurate as the 87 gr. I think the 95gr was at 3,150 ft/sec.

I have just checked and it seems that the 105gr PMP bullet has been discontinued in 6mm.

What is the exact length of that 105gr Berger, and what shape is it?
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Old 01-22-2017, 07:44 AM
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The Berger 90 gr did well at 300 for me with a 10 twist, 27 1/2" barrel, but its not a hunting bullet.

Gun didn't like the Sierra 100 gr, but ok for hunting, not for tight groups. IMO.
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:02 AM
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Not sure what is actually causing the upset of the 105gr Berger bullets MusgraveMan. There were many full-on sideways impacts of these at 200 yards during load development. I heard many more of the very distinct wining rounds that only comes from a bullet tumbling in flight. Most of those failed to even impact the target. While I tried several powders and did OCW and seating depth testing, I only used one lot # of the 105gr Bergers. I had purchased 5 boxes of 100, of these bullets, all the same lot. I did come up with a well below sub-MOA load for my son-in-laws 1 in 7.7" Krieger barreled Rem 700 243 Win with these same bullets. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with the bullets themselves, just that they don't like my 1 in 10" twist Winchester.

Have you had any luck with over 100gr bullets in your 1 in 10" twist 243 Win? What about the Peregrine bullets? Have you tried them in 243 Win?
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
Hey friend, I never doubted the groups with the 100gr bullets,in fact that is exactly normal.

Exactly because of that normal situation it is my opinion that the fault that causes the dispersion in trajectories of the 105 gr bullets is not with your rifle's twist.

I shot everything from 87gr (I think that was the actual weight of the South African PMP bullets), 95, 100 and 105gr, looking for the heaviest bullet that would still be accurate.

The 105gr at 3030 ft/sec was as accurate as the 87 gr. I think the 95gr was at 3,150 ft/sec.

I have just checked and it seems that the 105gr PMP bullet has been discontinued in 6mm.

What is the exact length of that 105gr Berger, and what shape is it?
The Bergers are 6mm 105gr Hybrid Target P/N: 24433 Lot #: 7895 and they are 1.255" in length, average of course.
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Old 01-22-2017, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by 243winxb View Post
The Berger 90 gr did well at 300 for me with a 10 twist, 27 1/2" barrel, but its not a hunting bullet.

Gun didn't like the Sierra 100 gr, but ok for hunting, not for tight groups. IMO.
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Thanks 243winxb, for the information on the Berger 90gr. I had that exact bullet in mind for my next attempt at load development with this rifle.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by SMK-1000plus View Post
Not sure what is actually causing the upset of the 105gr Berger bullets MusgraveMan. There were many full-on sideways impacts of these at 200 yards during load development. I heard many more of the very distinct wining rounds that only comes from a bullet tumbling in flight. Most of those failed to even impact the target. While I tried several powders and did OCW and seating depth testing, I only used one lot # of the 105gr Bergers. I had purchased 5 boxes of 100, of these bullets, all the same lot. I did come up with a well below sub-MOA load for my son-in-laws 1 in 7.7" Krieger barreled Rem 700 243 Win with these same bullets. I don't believe that there is anything wrong with the bullets themselves, just that they don't like my 1 in 10" twist Winchester.

Have you had any luck with over 100gr bullets in your 1 in 10" twist 243 Win? What about the Peregrine bullets? Have you tried them in 243 Win?
Indeed, the PMP 105gr were just perfect out of my SAKO 1:0" barrel.

SMK, very unusual. Whining is very fast tumbling or wobbling with ragged edges to the bullet. Wow, that sets my mind alight. Jacket failure or rupture? Good idea will be to shoot a few into water and also through lined up carton at 20 yard distances.

The difference is simply way too acute to go from perfectly stable to that very severe conduct of totally unstable.

I do not have my Sako .243 anymore. Let me have a look at the 6mm Peregrines for long distance. Their target bullets are very long and only allow for single shot loading. Expensive but 100% consistency in manufacture, bullet to bullet. No need to separate at all, not even between batches. I have no qualms to state that this is the world's best bullet for target as well as hunting. For the latter, expansion is a uniform 1.7-2x calibre from 1,600 ft/sec to 3, 000 ft/sec impact velocity.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:27 AM
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Some specifications on Peregrine match bullets

SMK have a look at these: The .375 H&H 286gr bullet on the buffalo horn boss was removed from the opposite skin after having broken both shoulders and ripped the hear apart. That is what the term "mushrooming" means

The tables are for twist rates relative to bullet weights. With 87gr in the Peregrine you are still O.K. with the 1:10" twist rate.

243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices-peregrine-4.jpg

243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices-2015_05-rev01.jpg

243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices-vrg5_ball_454x1112.jpg

243 Win 10" twist heaviest bullet choices-400gr-vrg-3peregrine-.jpg
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:35 AM
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A 10-twist will also stabilize the 100-grain Speer BTSP, because mine did for years with a full-power charge of H-1000. That said, I was just under 1 mile of elevation. As you've experienced, OP, that 10-twist has no prayer of stabilizing the significantly longer Bergers of higher weight.

I probably glossed a little too much to know exactly what it is you want to do with this rifle, but if you're stabilizing the Hornady 100gr. BTSP adequately at your elevation, then the Sierra Game King and Speer BTSPs should also work. I thought I had to go down to the 90-grain Bergers, but my memory is a little fuzzy so maybe the 95 worked okay. Anyway, those 3 BTSPs (Speer, Hornady, Sierra) are perfectly adequate for practice out to quite long range. I can't tell you how any of them behave at trans-sonic speeds, because I wasn't shooting that 243 that far back in those days.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:48 AM
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I have just checked Bergers. They in fact give a 1:10" twist rate for that very 105gr bullet even at 2,650 ft/sec.

My own little equation says the same but I used 2,900 ft/sec.
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Old 01-22-2017, 09:59 AM
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If memory serves, there was a difference between the .244 and 6mm Remington twist rates and one could only shoot up to 87 (or somesuch) and the other could shoot up to 105's accuratly, which is why it didn't take off like the 1:9 1/8 .243 did.

Oddly enough, my 1:9 1/8 700 in .243 shoots 68 grain Vmax's as well or better than 105's.



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Old 01-22-2017, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by recoil junky View Post
If memory serves, there was a difference between the .244 and 6mm Remington twist rates and one could only shoot up to 87 (or somesuch) and the other could shoot up to 105's accuratly, which is why it didn't take off like the 1:9 1/8 .243 did.

Oddly enough, my 1:9 1/8 700 in .243 shoots 68 grain Vmax's as well or better than 105's.



RJ
Quite correct, RJ - the .244 Remington started off with a 1:12" twist rate and 75 / 87 / 90gr bullets.It was only when they started calling it the 6mm that the twist rate was changed to 1:9".

One of the reasons the .243W and 6mm Rem are seen as varmint cartridges in South Africa has a little to do with long range stability. The amount of mass in the coronal axis of a bullet longer than 1.1" and thinner than 6.5 mm begins to need either very high launch velocity or 1:9" and tighter twist rates.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:48 AM
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MusgraveMan, I just ran the twist rate calculator on Bergers site and at 2,850 fps (the velocity I was getting) the stability factor was 0.865 (unstable). Not sure what calculator you used. That was for the Berger .243 Hybrid Target 105gr at 1.26" long on a 10" twist, at 0 ft elevation, 38°F. The calculator recommends a minimum of 1 in 7.5" twist for these conditions. I feel certain that a 7.5" twist is EXTREMELY conservative but, a 10" twist isn't even close to enough, according to their calculator.
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Old 01-22-2017, 10:52 AM
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MZ5, thanks. I'll try the Speer 100gr SPBT as well as the aforementioned 90gr Bergers.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by recoil junky View Post
If memory serves, there was a difference between the .244 and 6mm Remington twist rates and one could only shoot up to 87 (or somesuch) and the other could shoot up to 105's accuratly, which is why it didn't take off like the 1:9 1/8 .243 did.

Oddly enough, my 1:9 1/8 700 in .243 shoots 68 grain Vmax's as well or better than 105's.



RJ
If I remember correctly recoil junky, the .244 Rem had a 1 in 12" twist and 80gr flat-base bullets were max. Even flat-base 100gr wouldn't stabilize. To compete with Winchester, who's 243 Win had begun production with a 1 in 10" twist and could adequately stabilize 100gr flat-base bullets, Remington simply changed the twist rate of their rifles to 1 in 9-1/8" and renamed the cartridge the 6mm Remington.
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Old 01-22-2017, 11:20 AM
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You are quite correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMK-1000plus View Post
MusgraveMan, I just ran the twist rate calculator on Bergers site and at 2,850 fps (the velocity I was getting) the stability factor was 0.865 (unstable). Not sure what calculator you used. That was for the Berger .243 Hybrid Target 105gr at 1.26" long on a 10" twist, at 0 ft elevation, 38°F. The calculator recommends a minimum of 1 in 7.5" twist for these conditions. I feel certain that a 7.5" twist is EXTREMELY conservative but, a 10" twist isn't even close to enough, according to their calculator.
In fact I rechecked the Bergers calculator all the way down and they say that 1:10" is marginally stable. I also used the VLD hunting bullet BC. You are quite correct.
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Old 01-22-2017, 12:24 PM
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OK so first of all, MEASURE the twist of your barrel. There is a tolerance. I emailed Shilen about this and they said their tolerance was plus or minus a quarter inch. That's for their button-rifled barrels with their processes and quality control.

Somebody else might be better - somebody else might be worse. MEASURE. I have three "1-10" barrels for different .25 cal guns. One is exactly 10", one is about 10.1", and the other is about 10 3/8."

Anyway - a slight difference in bullet length can make a lot of difference. I was working up a load with Beartooth 335gr. bullets in my .444 and not getting real good groups. Finally noticed one of the bullet holes in the target wasn't quite round. What to do? I put some of the bullets in my lathe and turned about 0.050" off the noses; that left me with a 325gr. or so bullet. Stability problems went away!

0.050" was all it took, for that instance.
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