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  #21  
Old 02-09-2017, 05:19 PM
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This is not the only powder that can give you potential problems when loaded below minimum, but probably best know pistol power to have this characteristic. Great powder for magnum pistol loads. Don't load below minimum. As long as you stay between the MFGs parameters, its really hard top screw up with it.
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  #22  
Old 02-11-2017, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dan2108 View Post
I totally understand and agree with the principle of starting a load well below max and gradually working up to max, watching for signs of overpressure.

Many in the forum have recommended this load for 44 mag rifles: 240 gr. JHP and H110 powder.

Hodgdon’s load data for 44 mag, 240 gr. JHP bullet, H110 is: Starting 23.0 gr., Max 24.0 gr.

Why would the Starting load be so high? Why no wiggle room?
Would there be anything wrong with starting at say 17 gr. and working up to 24?

Hodgdon doesn't have such a narrow range with the same bullet weight in a cast bullet:
Hodgdon’s load data for 44 mag, 240 gr. SWC cast, HP-38 powder, says: Starting 5.5 gr., Max 11.0 gr.
All powders for cast bullets give plenty of room between starting and max loads.
I have been using 296 for years in 44 mag with 240gr Gold Dots in a lever action rifle.
Not only is the load density important, but so is the amount of crimp used, too little and the burn becomes dirty and inconsistent.
The reason that there is a small window that it 'works' in is due to it's propensity to start burning and stop if the pressure drops faster than the expanding space the gas is filling.
This also happens with other powders in certain cartridges, eg, the 45-70 and H4895 and 300gr bullets, the powder simply doesn't burn in the space before the bullet exits the barrel.

Hope this helps you understand the principles of how powder burns in a cartridge, without enough pressure, it simply doesn't burn progressively, and can, and does, stop burning.

Cheers.
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  #23  
Old 02-11-2017, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumManiac View Post
...The reason that there is a small window that it 'works' in is due to it's propensity to start burning and stop if the pressure drops faster than the expanding space the gas is filling.
This also happens with other powders in certain cartridges, eg, the 45-70 and H4895 and 300gr bullets, the powder simply doesn't burn in the space before the bullet exits the barrel.

Hope this helps you understand the principles of how powder burns in a cartridge, without enough pressure, it simply doesn't burn progressively, and can, and does, stop burning.

Cheers.
While many of you say, "Just use the recipe and it will work fine," I have to admit I'm skittish about this H110 powder. I'm thinking I'll stick to near-max loads of HP-38 and Titegroup which both seem more forgiving.

Anybody have velocity data on HP-38 or Titegroup vs H110 (with 240 gr. JHP)?
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  #24  
Old 02-11-2017, 07:27 PM
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2400 works too and it's more "forgiving".

RJ
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  #25  
Old 02-11-2017, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dan2108 View Post
While many of you say, "Just use the recipe and it will work fine," I have to admit I'm skittish about this H110 powder. I'm thinking I'll stick to near-max loads of HP-38 and Titegroup which both seem more forgiving.

Anybody have velocity data on HP-38 or Titegroup vs H110 (with 240 gr. JHP)?
I guess it depends on what "forgiving" means to you. H110 is virtually impossible to overload, and if your measurements are off by a full grain or two either way, it will be pretty much unnoticeable. Like I said, its hard to screw up a load with 110. That they give you a narrow band, does not mean that it's touchy. It just means you don't have to "work up" a load because playing around with incremental powder charges over a wider range doesn't have much significant impact.

If using a powder that half way fills the case, and requires working up in small increments while watching for pressure signs as you near max is "more forgiving" , then HP38 or Tightgroup might be right for you. Load data for both is on Hodgdon's website.
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  #26  
Old 02-12-2017, 07:09 AM
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HP-38 and Titegroup are more forgiving on the low end, but H110 or W296 are much more forgiving at the max end of loadings. With top pressures in both, you will be giving up about 200 fps with either of the faster powders. If you want max velocity loads for hunting, etc., then H110 is the best. HP-38 is one of the most versatile powders, but nowhere near the best for top velocities in 44 mag.
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by recoil junky View Post
2400 works too and it's more "forgiving".

RJ
IMO, 2400 powder is the most flexible magnum powder available.

I use it in 38 Special loads, standard and +p.

I use it in the 357, 41 mag, 45 colt, and 22 hornet.

I use it as low as 10grs in the 41mag for small game or plinking loads, and up to Bigfoot Killing loads. Never had any issues with it on either end of the load spectrum.


I really don't know why guys mess around with any other powder for their magnum handguns.
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  #28  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:42 AM
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What it looks like going wrong....

Back in the day when 296 first came out a local problem surfaced. A local gun store guru was giving out loads for 296. One citizen came in a Model 28 Smith. There was a bullets lodged half way up the barrel with unburnt power adhering to the base of the bullet. We learned a lesson. Sent the customer away happy after removing the bullet etc. Point being follow the instructions.
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  #29  
Old 02-12-2017, 12:40 PM
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When Winchester came out with 296 about a year after Hodgdon first introduced it as H110, they had load data that was just single fixed charges. For 240 grain cup and core bullets in the .44 Magnum it was 24 grains. Period. No starting load at all. Over time, the lot burn rates have differed some, and Winchester finally relented and put in a starting load, though it wasn't much smaller than maximum.

The powder has always worked for me. It meters well, so I've ignored the small errors powder measures make without signs of anything untoward.

Keep in mind that load manual pressures are not handled the way SAAMI's standard practice has manufacturers handle them. The manual authors use SAAMI's MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) number as an absolute maximum and they pick loads such that the highest variation they see in their test loads is not allowed to exceed the MAP. Indeed, Hodgdon's printed manual states the reason you don't see maximums that actually reach the MAP number in their load data is that they saw variations in the load and adjusted it down so the highest variation does not exceed the MAP. Because of this practice, if you look at their data, the powders whose listed maximum load peak pressures are greatest, are also the ones that had the least variation in pressure during testing.

For manufacturers the MAP is just a maximum average for ten rounds with some of the contributing test peaks above and some below it. They limit how far above with a number called MEV (Maximum Extreme Variation), which, like two other maximums averages they have (one for lot sample-to-sample variation and one for aging of a lot), is derived from the assumption pressure will normally have a 4% standard deviation. Handloading manual authors know people are going to try inappropriate powders at times that have excessive standard deviations, so they make it extra safe by staying lower than commercial maximums through use of the MAP as an upper limit.

Looking at Hodgdon's data, I found another spherical powder, Lil' Gun, actually does slightly better on velocity and better on velocity variation, based on it's higher pressure peak, with most bullet weights shown. That advantage is too small to write home about, but it does give you more starting load wiggle room. Being a newer powder design, it probably has easier ignition, too. So, if I were looking for a substitute and for some reason got spooked by H110/296, Lil' Gun would be a good choice, especially since it uses slightly lower charge weights and is slightly cheaper by the pound (Powder Valley prices). It is therefore a little more economical and versatile to use. If maximum velocity is your goal, you might want to look at Alliant 300MP.
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Last edited by unclenick; 03-18-2017 at 07:23 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #30  
Old 02-12-2017, 03:26 PM
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I've had more scary pressures with titegroup than I've ever had with H110. I don't make a lot of max magnum loads so I've burned way more clays and unique than anything else. Nothing to worry about with H110 though.
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  #31  
Old 03-18-2017, 05:05 AM
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I've had good results with W296 over the years in .357 & .44 mags - very good accuracy and velocity when used as directed. When I wanted to go with mid-power loads, and work toward max., Unique and Blue Dot worked well. And recently, 296 has become my go-to powder as I developed loads for the .300BLK. But as noted, it works best when the case is nearly full, and when you're using the medium to heavy bullet weights for the caliber.

Last edited by GeronPG; 03-19-2017 at 11:15 AM.
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  #32  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shawnbo View Post
Slow burning (for handgun) ball powder, requires a magnum primer to ensure proper ignition. Low density loads (that is, less than near max.pressure) will not combust properly, as chevwilliam describes. Win 296 has exactly the same properties. Neither is going to work well with reduced pressure loads in the 44 Magnum.
W-296 and H-110 are the same exact powder. Hodgdon has said that the containers are filled from the same bulk containers, the only difference is which label each gets. Any variation in charges in manuals is due to differences in lot numbers.

Always use mag primers to ignite either of them. The other thing that seldom gets mentioned is to apply a good roll crimp. That extra bit of retention of the bullet on ignition makes a huge difference in the start pressure, and ignition consistency.

Note: I guess I should read the whole thread before posting, as everybody said all this already!

I've gone the other way however. 40 years ago, I burned up a lot of H-110 in a .44 Super Blackhawk. I ended up, though, shooting far more .44 Special loads than magnums. These days, my .44 Model 69 has never seen a mag level load, and likely never will. Instead, I load mid range (hot Special level) in mag brass. I do the same in .45 Colt, even though I have a Blackhawk and a Redhawk that can handle the pressures fine. A medium powder like Blue Dot is far more versatile and can reach nearly as high velocity as the heavy charge stuff, yet still provide good performance at lower pressures. VV N32C Tin Star can also deliver the goods in both calibers. The .44 load duplicates Skeeter Skelton's famous load in mag brass, and I get easy original ballistics for the .45 Colt. Maybe I'm just getting old, but the full house mag loads don't fire the blood like they used to 40 years ago.
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Last edited by rifter; 03-18-2017 at 07:24 AM.
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  #33  
Old 03-18-2017, 07:36 AM
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Catch me up to date, please. I first saw this referenced on this web site and stuck it away for future research but haven't. I'm sorry.

I started using H-110 in .41 mag loads in 1969 and have never loaded anything else in that caliber. When I switched from full-house 210 grain jacketed HPs to 255 gr. hard cast LBTs in 1988, I dropped from 22 grains to 17 grains of the same H-110. Minimal leading, 1100 fps, great accuracy, manageable recoil and kills like lightning with full penetration on deer, antelope, elk, cattle and one horse.

I have several hundred loaded rounds of deeply crimped ammo. I think the newest is 12 years old....

Is the problem high pressure or low? This is not a defense gun and low pressure doesn't bother me. The gun is one of a kind and I'll deep six ammo if high pressure is documented or strongly suspected.
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  #34  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Catch me up to date, please. I first saw this referenced on this web site and stuck it away for future research but haven't. I'm sorry.

I started using H-110 in .41 mag loads in 1969 and have never loaded anything else in that caliber. When I switched from full-house 210 grain jacketed HPs to 255 gr. hard cast LBTs in 1988, I dropped from 22 grains to 17 grains of the same H-110. Minimal leading, 1100 fps, great accuracy, manageable recoil and kills like lightning with full penetration on deer, antelope, elk, cattle and one horse.

I have several hundred loaded rounds of deeply crimped ammo. I think the newest is 12 years old....

Is the problem high pressure or low? This is not a defense gun and low pressure doesn't bother me. The gun is one of a kind and I'll deep six ammo if high pressure is documented or strongly suspected.
The problem is the narrow start/max window. Most manuals say not to lower the load from max by more than 5%. Below that you risk squibs at best, or S.E.E. at worst. To me, that is just as bad as double charges with fast burning powders. In most of the straight wall pistol cases you're going to run out of room for powder with a proper bullet before you get to the point of really going over the red line. But reduce that slow burner too much, and you can create a hand grenade. Much easier and a **** of a lot safer to use a medium rate powder with good case fill.
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  #35  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:39 AM
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Now's the time for me to make an informed decision.

I took inventory. There are 730 loaded rounds and eleven pounds of H-110 in reserve. In 1986, when this gun was built, Ross Seyfried and Veral Smith were in cahoots to inform shooters of the advantages of big flats and hard cast bullets. I STILL don't have any reloading data for .41 Mag that list heavier than 210 grain bullets. Mine are 255 grains.

I thought I had closer to 100% loading density, but measuring says the internal case is roughly 1.08, Powder level is at .470 and the bottom of the bullet is at .700. That's 67% loading density and NO failures in more than 500 rounds.

What to do what to do.
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  #36  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Now's the time for me to make an informed decision.

I took inventory. There are 730 loaded rounds and eleven pounds of H-110 in reserve. In 1986, when this gun was built, Ross Seyfried and Veral Smith were in cahoots to inform shooters of the advantages of big flats and hard cast bullets. I STILL don't have any reloading data for .41 Mag that list heavier than 210 grain bullets. Mine are 255 grains.

I thought I had closer to 100% loading density, but measuring says the internal case is roughly 1.08, Powder level is at .470 and the bottom of the bullet is at .700. That's 67% loading density and NO failures in more than 500 rounds.

What to do what to do.
My .44 Mag loads way back when were all (book) max, and I used to get quite a bit of unburned powder left in the barrel of my 7.5" SBH. That was even with a very heavy roll crimp and mag primers. That always bothered me. Then I started hearing about guys blowing up their Rugers and Model 29 Smiths. H-110 went walk about and has never returned. I suspect your load is working because of the 45 extra gr of bullet weight. But, I have to tell you that the hair on the back of my neck stood right up when I first read that!


Note: The .41 Mag is kind of an odd duck. It does some strange things with certain powders and bullet combinations. I'm sure you're aware of the warning from Hercules/Alliant about not using Blue Dot in the .41 Mag at all. That has been in place for 30 years give or take, with nary an explanation as to what caused it. I've heard of some other cases with other powders as well. Your situation fits right in with that Area 51 feeling, at least for me!
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Last edited by rifter; 03-18-2017 at 08:57 AM.
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  #37  
Old 03-18-2017, 08:59 AM
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Now my hair is standing up. I have 8 lbs of BlueDot and that would have been my next choice. I've never heard that and in fact, I think it was Ross using it in his Linebaugh that got me to thinking about and bought the powder!!

I've got a deep hole for the ammo and almost 1800 lbs of wheel weights in well fluxed one pound ingots. All I need is a reloading manual with for heavy cast bullets. I'm totally out of ideas because it was a brand new field when I started.....31 years ago.
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  #38  
Old 03-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Now my hair is standing up. I have 8 lbs of BlueDot and that would have been my next choice.

What type of load are you trying to come up with?
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  #39  
Old 03-18-2017, 09:21 AM
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I disagree with the universal statement that ANY powder space with H110/296 is automatically a problem.

When I was working up loads for the .500 JRH, what I found was H110/296 is VERY consistent and VERY predictable - if you are using heavy for caliber bullets!

If!!!! Read that last part again. NOT with light-for-caliber bullets. That is likely why Jack has had NO issues with the 255gr. bullets in the .41 mag. There is just a LOT of bullet to get moving and that helps the powder burn.

Whether or not Jack should go heavier with the load, I think, is probably a question that can be answered with a chronograph. Shoot a few over it and see how consistent the velocities are. THAT will answer the question, in spades.

It is a complex equation of just what will make H110/296 burn consistently. Bullet mass (relative to the bore size), crimp, load density, primer strength, and maybe 2 or 3 other things that I have left out.
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  #40  
Old 03-18-2017, 09:25 AM
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WELL, I need a load that zeros my two sights at 75 and 175 yards as I have now. The chances of that happening in my lifetime are slim and none. The gun is engraved .41 Mag and it will shoot factory ammo, but never has. I might scrap all ammo and keep the gun for a conversation piece.

It was 1986 when I finished the gun and settled on the load. Chrono was 1080fps and all within 8fps and inch and a half six shot groups at 40 yards, but I filed the sights in for 75/175 because the mid-ranges overlap and cover anything within reason. (I hit a 2x2 foot gong at 400 yds. five out of six and will put money on it.)

The gun started out as a .357, 6inch Blackhawk found by a fly fisherman in the Colorado River. I cleared it with law enforcement and gave him twenty bucks for it. I haven't lost TOO much!
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