Why no "wiggle room" with H110 powder? - Page 2 - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree25Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 02-09-2017, 06:19 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 468

Registered Users do not see the above ad.


This is not the only powder that can give you potential problems when loaded below minimum, but probably best know pistol power to have this characteristic. Great powder for magnum pistol loads. Don't load below minimum. As long as you stay between the MFGs parameters, its really hard top screw up with it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 02-11-2017, 03:30 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Melbourne,Australia
Posts: 654
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan2108 View Post
I totally understand and agree with the principle of starting a load well below max and gradually working up to max, watching for signs of overpressure.

Many in the forum have recommended this load for 44 mag rifles: 240 gr. JHP and H110 powder.

Hodgdon’s load data for 44 mag, 240 gr. JHP bullet, H110 is: Starting 23.0 gr., Max 24.0 gr.

Why would the Starting load be so high? Why no wiggle room?
Would there be anything wrong with starting at say 17 gr. and working up to 24?

Hodgdon doesn't have such a narrow range with the same bullet weight in a cast bullet:
Hodgdon’s load data for 44 mag, 240 gr. SWC cast, HP-38 powder, says: Starting 5.5 gr., Max 11.0 gr.
All powders for cast bullets give plenty of room between starting and max loads.
I have been using 296 for years in 44 mag with 240gr Gold Dots in a lever action rifle.
Not only is the load density important, but so is the amount of crimp used, too little and the burn becomes dirty and inconsistent.
The reason that there is a small window that it 'works' in is due to it's propensity to start burning and stop if the pressure drops faster than the expanding space the gas is filling.
This also happens with other powders in certain cartridges, eg, the 45-70 and H4895 and 300gr bullets, the powder simply doesn't burn in the space before the bullet exits the barrel.

Hope this helps you understand the principles of how powder burns in a cartridge, without enough pressure, it simply doesn't burn progressively, and can, and does, stop burning.

Cheers.
__________________
Magnums RULE
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 02-11-2017, 08:20 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumManiac View Post
...The reason that there is a small window that it 'works' in is due to it's propensity to start burning and stop if the pressure drops faster than the expanding space the gas is filling.
This also happens with other powders in certain cartridges, eg, the 45-70 and H4895 and 300gr bullets, the powder simply doesn't burn in the space before the bullet exits the barrel.

Hope this helps you understand the principles of how powder burns in a cartridge, without enough pressure, it simply doesn't burn progressively, and can, and does, stop burning.

Cheers.
While many of you say, "Just use the recipe and it will work fine," I have to admit I'm skittish about this H110 powder. I'm thinking I'll stick to near-max loads of HP-38 and Titegroup which both seem more forgiving.

Anybody have velocity data on HP-38 or Titegroup vs H110 (with 240 gr. JHP)?
Reply With Quote
 
  #24  
Old 02-11-2017, 08:27 PM
recoil junky's Avatar
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Craig CO. Elk Hunting Capitol of the World!
Posts: 6,721
2400 works too and it's more "forgiving".

RJ
dmsbandit likes this.
__________________
Keep your powder dry and when you go afield take the kids and please..........wear your seat belts.
I am the ORIGINAL recoil junky , often imitated, but never equalled.
Proud Father of a SoldierMedic in The 82nd Airborne 325thAIR White Falcons
IUOE Local #9
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 02-12-2017, 12:01 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Rittman, Ohio
Posts: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan2108 View Post
While many of you say, "Just use the recipe and it will work fine," I have to admit I'm skittish about this H110 powder. I'm thinking I'll stick to near-max loads of HP-38 and Titegroup which both seem more forgiving.

Anybody have velocity data on HP-38 or Titegroup vs H110 (with 240 gr. JHP)?
I guess it depends on what "forgiving" means to you. H110 is virtually impossible to overload, and if your measurements are off by a full grain or two either way, it will be pretty much unnoticeable. Like I said, its hard to screw up a load with 110. That they give you a narrow band, does not mean that it's touchy. It just means you don't have to "work up" a load because playing around with incremental powder charges over a wider range doesn't have much significant impact.

If using a powder that half way fills the case, and requires working up in small increments while watching for pressure signs as you near max is "more forgiving" , then HP38 or Tightgroup might be right for you. Load data for both is on Hodgdon's website.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 02-12-2017, 08:09 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: O'Fallon, MO
Posts: 442
HP-38 and Titegroup are more forgiving on the low end, but H110 or W296 are much more forgiving at the max end of loadings. With top pressures in both, you will be giving up about 200 fps with either of the faster powders. If you want max velocity loads for hunting, etc., then H110 is the best. HP-38 is one of the most versatile powders, but nowhere near the best for top velocities in 44 mag.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-12-2017, 09:35 AM
dmsbandit's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 3,255
Quote:
Originally Posted by recoil junky View Post
2400 works too and it's more "forgiving".

RJ
IMO, 2400 powder is the most flexible magnum powder available.

I use it in 38 Special loads, standard and +p.

I use it in the 357, 41 mag, 45 colt, and 22 hornet.

I use it as low as 10grs in the 41mag for small game or plinking loads, and up to Bigfoot Killing loads. Never had any issues with it on either end of the load spectrum.


I really don't know why guys mess around with any other powder for their magnum handguns.
gunpa and Submoa like this.
__________________
"I don't drink or smoke, I spend my money on gunpowder and gasoline."
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-12-2017, 09:42 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Posts: 494
What it looks like going wrong....

Back in the day when 296 first came out a local problem surfaced. A local gun store guru was giving out loads for 296. One citizen came in a Model 28 Smith. There was a bullets lodged half way up the barrel with unburnt power adhering to the base of the bullet. We learned a lesson. Sent the customer away happy after removing the bullet etc. Point being follow the instructions.
TimSr likes this.
__________________
Noted on a period Tennessee rifle: "Warranted if used correctly" old wisdom

J.G. Terry
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-12-2017, 01:40 PM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 11,983
When Winchester came out with 296 about a year after Hodgdon first introduced it as H110, they had load data that was just single fixed charges. For 240 grain cup and core bullets in the .44 Magnum it was 24 grains. Period. No starting load at all. Over time, the lot burn rates have differed some, and Winchester finally relented and put in a starting load, though it wasn't much smaller than maximum.

The powder has always worked for me. It meters well, so I've ignored the small errors powder measures make without signs of anything untoward.

Keep in mind that load manual pressures are not handled the way SAAMI's standard practice has manufacturers handle them. The manual authors use SAAMI's MAP (Maximum Average Pressure) number as an absolute maximum and they pick loads such that the highest variation they see in their test loads is not allowed to exceed the MAP. Indeed, Hodgdon's printed manual states the reason you don't see maximums that actually reach the MAP number in their load data is that they saw variations in the load and adjusted it down so the highest variation would not exceed the MAP. Because of this practice, if you look at their data, the powders getting the highest peak values were also the ones with the least variation in pressure.

For manufacturers the MAP is just a maximum average for ten rounds with some of them above and some below it. They limit how far above with a number called MEV (Maximum Extreme Variation), which, like two other maximums averages they have (one for lot sample variation and one for aging of a lot), is derived from the assumption pressure will have a 4% standard deviation. Handloading manual authors know people are going to try inappropriate powders at times that have excessive standard deviations, so they make it extra safe by staying low.

Looking at Hodgdon's data, I found another spherical powder, Lil' Gun, actually does slightly better on velocity and better on variation with most bullet weights shown, though the difference isn't anything to write home about. But it does give you more starting load wiggle room. Being a newer powder design, it probably has easier ignition. So, if I were looking for a substitute and for some reason got spooked by H110/296, Lil' Gun would be a good choice, especially since it uses slightly lower charge weights and is slightly cheaper by the pound (Powder Valley prices). It is therefore a little more economical to shoot. If maximum velocity is your goal, you might also want to look at Alliant 300MP.
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-12-2017, 04:26 PM
gunpa's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Idaho
Posts: 679
I've had more scary pressures with titegroup than I've ever had with H110. I don't make a lot of max magnum loads so I've burned way more clays and unique than anything else. Nothing to worry about with H110 though.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Loading the 223 Remington - powder choices flashhole Handloading Procedures/Practices 64 05-26-2016 11:50 AM
$7.99 for a Dillon Gun Powder Thrower Hand Adjustment Screw & Knob ~kev~ Forum Sponsors & Merchants 0 03-14-2016 12:30 AM
Lee Auto Drum and Lee Classic Powder Measure flashhole Handloading Equipment 31 01-31-2016 06:21 PM
Tiny little powder charges in great big cartridges! TheDownRanger Leverguns and Their Cartridges (General) 2 09-27-2010 04:12 AM
Black Powder, observations and field work cayugad Muzzleloaders 11 08-15-2010 07:30 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:15 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1