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  #21  
Old 03-15-2017, 02:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wish-A-Lot View Post
Simcoe;
You are correct about the bullet and case relationship. Deeper bullet = higher pressure.
SAAMI max.OAL is for fitting into magazines. Go over the OAL and forget about using the magazine. Extending the OAL does 2 things...less jump to the lands which hopefully increases accuracy...more space to add powder behind the bullet as long as you stay within maximum SAAMI pressures for '06 (60,000 psi.)
Jump to rifling is a bullet specific issue. Classic Sierra MKs like the jump, hybrids like the Berger VLD and others like to be close to the rifling, in other words, as little jump as possible.
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  #22  
Old 03-15-2017, 02:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
DARKER, that's specifically 4064, different powders work differently and seating deeper with increase pressure especially with case limitations like the .308.
I agree, but I think the basic premise holds true. If you aren't running compressed, and a powder suitable for the cartridge/bullet combo, then you will bleed gas.
Use one on the edge of suitability or compress things, and they can get sideways on you quickly.
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  #23  
Old 03-15-2017, 03:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
DARKER, that's specifically 4064, different powders work differently and seating deeper with increase pressure especially with case limitations like the .308.
I have found it to be well applicable generally across the board, with my pressure equipment (and chrono) in bottleneck rifle cases. If you have data on specific exceptions, sharing those specifics here would be a benefit to the community.
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  #24  
Old 03-15-2017, 03:44 PM
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Cool

understand what you are doing. Unfortunately, most over the counter rifles have very deep throats. I had a Model 70 re-barreled by Heart and when I sent them the specs, I also sent along a dummy cartridge that was .030 shorter than the max OAL using a Nosler B/T 165 G bullet and had them throat the chamber to this length cartridge. To get your best accuracy you need to seat the bullet in the case so it just touches the lands when chambered. I actually load my brass .002 longer than the throated depth to make sure it touches. By doing this you will increase pressures slightly. In my re-barrel job I also requested a N/M Chamber ( Tight ) so I really have to watch pressures. I do not use any bullets heavier than 168 G and my favorite is the Combined Technologies 168 G B/T bullet. A little description of my new Barrel: 26 inch, Stainless steel tube, N/M Chamber, 1:12 Twist, throated, Teflon coated exterior, Bench rest crown and Cryo treated. At 100 yards it will put five rounds through the same hole. At 200, I can cover all five holes with a 50 cent piece on a still day. This is the load I use; Winchester Cases, all the same weight =/- 1/10th grain. Fire formed. De burr flash hole inside. Neck Sized only. Federal 210 M primers. 46.5 G IMR 4064 and seated to match throat + .002. This is 30.06. Watch your excess pressure indicators. ( deformed primers )
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  #25  
Old 03-15-2017, 04:57 PM
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Originally Posted by MZ5 View Post
I have found it to be well applicable generally across the board, with my pressure equipment (and chrono) in bottleneck rifle cases. If you have data on specific exceptions, sharing those specifics here would be a benefit to the community.
Actually it isn't. Different powders burn differently. You have noted in the past that you use your chrony for pressure testing. Sorry but that isn't the way to test for pressure.
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  #26  
Old 03-15-2017, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Seamus View Post
This is the load I use; Winchester Cases, all the same weight =/- 1/10th grain. Fire formed. De burr flash hole inside.
It's called uniforming the flash hole and in fact you ought to try uniforming the primer pocket too since I have yet to see any brass that had consistent primer pockets. This includes Norma and Lapua.

Quote:

Neck Sized only. Federal 210 M primers. 46.5 G IMR 4064 and seated to match throat + .002. This is 30.06. Watch your excess pressure indicators. ( deformed primers )
Best of luck finding 210Ms, I put mine aside and use others now (usually WLR) since 210Ms can't be found.
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  #27  
Old 03-16-2017, 05:43 AM
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I start all load development at the lands, and I use the same hornady tools as you have, I will add this, when full length sizing measure with headspace and only bump shoulder back .002.
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  #28  
Old 03-16-2017, 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Actually it isn't. Different powders burn differently. You have noted in the past that you use your chrony for pressure testing. Sorry but that isn't the way to test for pressure.
Actually he uses the Pressure Trace strain gauge instrument. He and Darkker have done a lot if testing with his unit that you can find posts on, so these are actual pressure measurements.

That said, this plot is taken from Lloyd Brownells .30-06 strain gauge measurements of pressure vs. seating depth with round nose bullets proves your point that there isn't a universally exact truth to the seating depth / pressure relationship; only a predominant one. This unusually long change in depth before pressure rises in this plot is due to both bullet geometry and case fill:



How far off the lands this bullet has to be before pressure stops dropping is due to its ogive taper being more gradual than any other bullet made and due to empty space in the case (I think the powder was IMR 3031, but I'd have to reread the report to verify that). For a standard tangent ogive pointed rife bullet, getting just 0.030" off the lands usually finds the bottom of the pressure curve.


Seamus,

Read this article by Berger. They used to recommend always seating their secant ogive VLD's touching the lands, but accepted that some guns just never shot them well with any charge weight of any powder. Then they got feedback from the owners of such guns who reported that if they just backed the bullets off the lands a bit they could then find a sweet spot load for them. Indeed, for some guns the jump has to be an eighth of an inch or more.

Item 3 at the top of this old page under Load Development is another example.

The reasons the above can be true are a bit mysterious, and I have been working on experiments to help analyze it, but they have born no fruit yet. The bottom line is that what is true most of the time isn't always true and that there are no universally right seating depths or bullet jump.
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  #29  
Old 03-16-2017, 01:44 PM
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Load a bullet with no crimp so that the neck just holds it. Close the bolt and gently open it and measure OAL.You have just found the proper length to work from. Load less than this length
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  #30  
Old 03-20-2017, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by JonP View Post
Load a bullet with no crimp so that the neck just holds it.

I want all the bullet hold I can get, when I determine the distance from the bolt face to the beginning if the rifling I do not want anything moving (like the bullet), that requires bullet hold. I know, it is cool to close the bolt on a case, what I do not find cool is the measuring of the case with the bullet and then making adjustments to the seating die and raising the ram, lowering the ram and then removing the case with the seated bullet to determine...anyhow, it goes on and on and on. I prefer to transfer the measurement from the chamber to the seating die. I am the fan of transfers.

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  #31  
Old 03-20-2017, 02:39 PM
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I don't get what your getting at. Do as I said and you have the OAL you need. Adjust your die accordingly which takes no time and your done with an accurate length. If you find it uncool to raise and lower a ram then you should buy your ammo at walmart
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  #32  
Old 03-22-2017, 05:49 AM
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I don't get what your getting at. Do as I said and you have the OAL you need.
And that is OK; you are under no obligation to make an effort to try. Just because the bolt closes and the chamber gets dark does not mean the light in the mind goes out. I want to know the length of the chamber from the beginning of the rifling to the bolt face, When determining the distance from the beginning to the rifling to the bolt face I have no better way to determine the distance than with a transfer. I make a transfer by drilling out the flash hole/primer pocket to a diameter that will accommodate a cleaning rod. And then there is that part about bumping, I size cases to off set the length of the chamber meaning I control case clearance.

After sizing I seat a bullet into the case with all the bullet hold I can get, 40 pounds sounds like a good number, after seating the bullet I remove the bolt and then chamber the transfer and then use a cleaning rod tp push the bullet out of the case and into the lands. When the bullet contacts the lands I stop pushing. And then I remove the transfer from from the chamber and then place it into the shell holder and raise the ram with the seating die installed into the press with a loose fit.

The die must be adjusted down to the crimp portion of the die after the ram is raised; and then backed off and secured after contact. After securing the die the seating stem must be adjusted to the bullet.

There is something about 'ZERO' a reloaders does not understand, the chamber can go dark but that does not mean the little light in the mind is burnt out. When I adjust my seating die to the transfer my seating die is adjusted to 'zero' off the lands. If I choose to adjust the bullet .030" off the lands I use a depth micrometer to lower the seating stem .030".

I know; reloaders prefer Gurley grip on the bullet; I want all the bullet hold/grip I can get because after I drill the flash hole/primer pocket out on a case to make a transfer I do not want anything moving. If I save the transfer I do not find it necessary to start over 'a-new' everyday and I want case neck to hold the bullet, again, 40 pounds is a good number.

And then there is 'off the lands'; I am not the fan of at or into the lands. I want my bullets to have that 'jump', I want my bullets to have that running start; to accomplish that I must know the distance from the beginning of the rifling to the bolt face.

I know, reloaders make dummies, I don't because I know what a dummy is worth.

F. Guffey
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  #33  
Old 03-24-2017, 02:36 PM
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Unfortunatly we have rifles with long throats and short magazines or in some cases visa versa. So we seat bullets out as far as the will go in the magazine and many times they have to make a jump to the lands and it still works most of the time anyway...

Like much of reloading and gundome, its a lot of misinformation made up by some gun scribe or self styled expert that thought it just must be so that all bullets that have to jump just don't shoot and that's BS...The fact is I have tested this old wives tale a dozen or so times on my custom sporters, Brno mod 21s and 22s that have this problem as do many Mausers, they come with long throats, and some with long mags...I shoot 130 gr. Spears for deer, and they have to jump a long ways to make contact as my 175 gr. Nosler partitions are perfect in mag and throat seated one caliber deep in the case. That's long, .Both loads shoot to the same POI and usually under an inch. Careful we don't get plump et up with tech...Shoot them first, then maybe you wont have to worry about a lot of conceived problems. I don't believe in the accepted belief of bullet jump, what I do believe in is an accurate barrel shoots about anything you run thru it and a bad barrel is junk even if it shoots great with a specific load, I want my guns to shoot it all accurately and prefer to the same POI..Most of my guns do that, but it took some time to put them together.

Last edited by Big 5; 03-24-2017 at 02:43 PM. Reason: corrections
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