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  #1  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:01 AM
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Need some help Fellas


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Here's what I'm doing. Short version. Using a Hornady head space comparator along with the bullet comparator to find the distance to the lands on my 06'. The Hornady case for the 06' is the same length as my trimmed cases 2.485, my cases are not fire formed but they are FL sized and trimmed. Using the Sierra manual (using Sierra bullets) the OAL Sierra shows is 3.225 for the bullet used (I've loaded many of these at this figure +or- a bit as they're a lead tip bullet. Yes, I know about ogive and such hence the "new to me" methods I'm using to try to "improve" my hand loads. So here's my question/confusion and maybe it amounts to nothing, but I was a bit surprised by the numbers. From the number I got from the headspace comparator for distance to the lands on my rifle vs the OAL shown in the book for the rounds I've loaded has the bullet at .11 off the lands. Hopefully I'm not confusing everyone with my poor writing skills with my description but for some "reason" I was figuring on a much larger number, in the .30 range off the lands. I'm not really concerned with the .11 but IF I wanted to back off to say .20 or .30 off the lands to start (which I've also read is a recommended area to start) how would that impact pressure as I would be going shorter than what their load data was derived from. Am I trying to make something out of nothing here or missing something. If wondering what I'm trying to do is your question, just making the "best" ammunition I can "just because". Hopefully what I'm asking makes some sense.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:15 AM
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Sierra used to suggest a length that would function through the magazine of the rifle they used for testing. I don't own a current Sierra manual, so don't know if still true?

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  #3  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simcoe View Post
......I'm not really concerned with the .11 but IF I wanted to back off to say .20 or .30 off the lands to start (which I've also read is a recommended area to start) how would that impact pressure as I would be going shorter than what their load data was derived from. ........
Maybe you want to back off the lands to .020 or .030? Might be a typo there.

Simcoe, I went through something similar with a new 260 Remington. Barnes listed a COAL for their 130gr TSX as 2.705". Now I measured my rifle with that bullet and my maximum was 2.850". See the difference? .145" to be exact. So I emailed a Barnes bulletsmith and he said don't worry about it. They recommend about .030" off the lands for their bullets but, of course, that would make my COAL 2.820" which is too long for my magazine (absolute max length in magazine is 2.815").

So, what did I do? Well, I built several loads at 2.705 and 2.710 as per their manual on that bullet. Then on the next reloading, I built several at 2.750 and incrementally up to 2.800". It's been temporarily shelved for other bullets but I'm still working on that load. Those rounds fired fine and were hunting accurate.

I will bet Sierra, when called or emailed, will tell you the same thing. Start a little shorter and work up to .020 or .030 off.Depending on your magazine length, or course.

Some guys find their max COAL and start there, working backwards. I don't know about that and I don't do it that way. I just read that is all.
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  #4  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:20 AM
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If I followed your thought correctly, it sounds reasonable.
If you are talking about lead soft points as in hunting bullets, those have a rather mild and easily made transition, or ogive. So repeatability is easier to accomplish consistently, rather than super long pointy match type things. Those can vary in OAL a bit larger in amounts. So that part doesn't surprise me much.

As to the pressure bit, the deeper you seat(obviously to a point, but a very large oal difference) the lower the pressure will be. You seat farther off the lands and the powder will have more time to escape around the bullet, before the bullet can engrave the rifling and seal it off.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Cheezywan View Post
Sierra used to suggest a length that would function through the magazine of the rifle they used for testing. I don't own a current Sierra manual, so don't know if still true? Cheezywan
Yep, every gun is different so what Sierra published may not apply exactly to your gun. Their OAL should function well in most any gun though as they would likely error on the side of caution. Pressure is only really an issue if you get into the lands IMO. Backing it off a bit (shortening the OAL) from their number isn't going to give you pressure issues IMO. It may effect accuracy one way or the other. Only testing will tell you how.
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Old 03-10-2017, 09:27 AM
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I start at what the bullet manufacturer recommends in their load recipe. From there I work out until running out of magazine length or hitting a sweet spot for accuracy. Keep in mind as the "jump" distance is shortened the pressures go up.
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  #7  
Old 03-10-2017, 09:41 AM
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Thanks fellas, I figured maybe I was "overthinking" this a bit, but will admit the pressure part confuses me a little. I would have thought that the longer OAL (more of the bullet out of the case) but not touching the rifling the pressure would be less. A bit more looking into this will be my next order of business. I will tell you all I'm not new to reloading at all, more so with hand gun than rifle but I'm just trying to maybe get to the next "level" of "hand loading" vs "reloading.
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Old 03-10-2017, 10:02 AM
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Again thanks, but I have to tell you all that I'm an IDIOT, I MEASURED INCORRECTLY. Decimal in the wrong place....what a maroon....
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2017, 01:21 PM
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What works through the magazine is max COL. Test accuracy there and below unless you load singly.
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:58 PM
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Thanks all, I maybe should have started with the fact I just received the Hornady bullet comparator along with the headspace comparator (they call it headspace gauge) and was trying to figure out how all this went together. It's different from watching a video or reading instructions to actually having it in your hands along with the measuring of cases, bullets, chamber and how it all ties together. I think I have it figured now. If I find I don't have it figured I'll be back....
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Old 03-11-2017, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simcoe View Post
Thanks fellas, I figured maybe I was "overthinking" this a bit, but will admit the pressure part confuses me a little. I would have thought that the longer OAL (more of the bullet out of the case) but not touching the rifling the pressure would be less. A bit more looking into this will be my next order of business. I will tell you all I'm not new to reloading at all, more so with hand gun than rifle but I'm just trying to maybe get to the next "level" of "hand loading" vs "reloading.
The answer requires too much typing; I am the fan of the running start, I want my bullets to have that 'jump': Because: 'the because' has to do with pressure, it takes less pressure to get the bullet past the rifling if the bullet is moving, Pressure increases if the bullet is setting against the rifling. And then there is the sudden stop, the sudden stop increases pressure but that is another answer that requires too much typing.

I want to know where the rifling is located, instead of the Hornady/Sinclair tool I use a transfer. It just seems the more a tool is used, picked up, handled adjusted etc. the greater the chance of dropping it. It would not hurt the Hornady tool because it never started out as being accurate.

F. Guffey

Last edited by fguffey; 03-11-2017 at 03:50 AM.
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  #12  
Old 03-11-2017, 04:49 AM
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my 2 cents - I have settled on a compromise seating depth of no less than .016" off the lands for a fairly new barrel which is more precise for the measurement of the throat than for a more eroded throat, at least for the rifles I have loaded for. I can still load up to decent velocities and get the kind of accuracy I'm looking for in most instances. Free bored rifles have their place and so do the guilt edged target barrels where some of the guys actually seat bullets into the rifling. My best advice is to back off your loads when experimenting with that magic seating depth as there is a very fine critical edge for a pressure spike. Be safe on the short side aol but remember that deep seated bullets changes the powder capacity and will increase pressures. Some times it is no choice for a repeater with a long throat and a short magazine, have to load it so it will feed.
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:37 AM
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DeadX, exactly what I was trying to do. My poor writing skills are the reason things were not clear to you all. I know what I'm trying to accomplish. just learning how to use these products to do that. I loaded some rounds up at 20 thou off the lands to start, maybe should have started at 30, but doesn't matter right now, like I said just learning how these items work. More experience, more "experimenting".

Mr Guffey, I've read many, many, of your replies on different threads and I will tell you that you are evidently so far ahead of my knowledge in this hobby that usually I have no idea of which you speak. However, I did understand MOST of your reply. I was trying to find the distance to the rifling to set bullet "jump" and OAL, but to me a "transfer" is when you have to move somewhere to keep employment. I do appreciate your response however.
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Old 03-11-2017, 07:51 AM
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Thank you;

Quote:
but to me a "transfer" is when you have to move somewhere to keep employment. I do appreciate your response however
The measurement 'off the lands' is found in the chamber, for me? Not a problem but I need to make the measurements on the seating die so I make a transfer, I transfer the measurement from the chamber to the seating die.

I am not saying I do not have all of the other tools, I am saying I do not find the other tools necessary. and then there is the thing with starting over the next day; I do not find it necessary to start over 'a-new' everyday. Once I know the distance from the beginning of the rifling to the bolt face I adjust to zero.

F. Guffey
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Old 03-11-2017, 08:18 AM
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Seating deeper into the case (larger jump to lands) will decrease pressure. Obviously there is always a point of reversal, but here is a graph to help.

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Old 03-11-2017, 10:36 AM
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Clarify for me:
You _wrote_ that you're presently more than 1/10th of an inch off the lands, and that you're thinking of backing of to 3/10ths off. However, others have talked (and so did you, later) about loading to 3/100ths (or 30 thousandths) off.

Which do you mean?
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Old 03-11-2017, 02:05 PM
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It is really simple and easy to make a dummy cartridge for every bullet you use in that cartridge that gives you true 'to the lands' length so a seating die can be set and re-set to within a very few thousandths.

Partially neck size a fired, trimmed and chamfered case just enough to hold the bullet in place. Mix a half dab each of five minute epoxy and smear the INSIDE of the case neck with epoxy and then lightly seat the bullet just enough to chamber the dummy round and leave it chambered an hour or so. Extract the dummy and KNOW that bullet is seated TO the lands and no further. That is the overall length of that cartridge with that particular bullet for that particular gun. Some Weatherby MKVs, 264 Westerners and others have an extra long throat and makes the whole exercise a waste of time, but you'll know that when you (don't) seat the bullet by chambering it.

To set seating depth to any amount other than that FULL LENGTH dummy, simply set the seating die to the dummy by backing out with the seating plug before turning the die body in to within about .100 from the shell holder when the ram is all the way up. (A US nickle is .075 thick). Tighten the lock ring on the die body than gently run the dummy all the way into the die. Then screw down the seating plug until it touches the dummy bullet and tighten that lock ring. The die is now set to seat THAT bullet to touching the lands. To adjust seating depth away from the lands just use the screwdriver slot on the seating plug screw. If you screw in the seating plug one full turn the bullet will be .031" away from the lands, or half turn for .015" or quarter turn of .007 or any combination you want.

The only 'measuring' to be done is by eyeball and repeatability is literally within a couple thou, depending on the eyeball.

Make a dummy for each bullet. If the dummy is too long to fit in the magazine, it's a moot point.
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Old 03-11-2017, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simcoe View Post
Here's what I'm doing. Short version. Using a Hornady head space comparator along with the bullet comparator to find the distance to the lands on my 06'. The Hornady case for the 06' is the same length as my trimmed cases 2.485, my cases are not fire formed but they are FL sized and trimmed. Using the Sierra manual (using Sierra bullets) the OAL Sierra shows is 3.225 for the bullet used (I've loaded many of these at this figure +or- a bit as they're a lead tip bullet. Yes, I know about ogive and such hence the "new to me" methods I'm using to try to "improve" my hand loads. So here's my question/confusion and maybe it amounts to nothing, but I was a bit surprised by the numbers. From the number I got from the headspace comparator for distance to the lands on my rifle vs the OAL shown in the book for the rounds I've loaded has the bullet at .11 off the lands. Hopefully I'm not confusing everyone with my poor writing skills with my description but for some "reason" I was figuring on a much larger number, in the .30 range off the lands. I'm not really concerned with the .11 but IF I wanted to back off to say .20 or .30 off the lands to start (which I've also read is a recommended area to start) how would that impact pressure as I would be going shorter than what their load data was derived from. Am I trying to make something out of nothing here or missing something. If wondering what I'm trying to do is your question, just making the "best" ammunition I can "just because". Hopefully what I'm asking makes some sense.


Call Sierra tech support (800-223-8799) and ask to talk to Rich Macholtz. He'll help you sort this out. The guy is good and if he doesn't know, lots of the guys used '03s are one point or another. Also helps to know what barrel you have on the rifle. They vary with arsenal rebuilds. I had a two grove on mine, but I pulled it to screw on my .308 barrel.
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Old 03-15-2017, 12:28 PM
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Simcoe;
You are correct about the bullet and case relationship. Deeper bullet = higher pressure.
SAAMI max.OAL is for fitting into magazines. Go over the OAL and forget about using the magazine. Extending the OAL does 2 things...less jump to the lands which hopefully increases accuracy...more space to add powder behind the bullet as long as you stay within maximum SAAMI pressures for '06 (60,000 psi.)
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Old 03-15-2017, 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkker View Post
Seating deeper into the case (larger jump to lands) will decrease pressure. Obviously there is always a point of reversal, but here is a graph to help.

DARKER, that's specifically 4064, different powders work differently and seating deeper with increase pressure especially with case limitations like the .308.
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