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  #1  
Old 04-18-2017, 08:26 PM
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With H-4350 difficult to keep in stock, thinking of trying Ramshot hunter in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Quite a lot of data seems to indicate a good fit. My main concern is that being a fine ball powder, it may exhibit temp insensitivity on par with, say Re 17.
Anyone tried it in the 6.5C?
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Old 04-19-2017, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by land&groove View Post
. My main concern is that being a fine ball powder, it may exhibit temp insensitivity on par with, say Re 17.
Anyone tried it in the 6.5C?
....
What it looked like you tried to complain about, isn't what you actually said...

Being a "fine ball powder" or even a coarse one for that matter, has nothing to do with temp sensitivity, or even Temp insensitivity.
Is it accurate to say that every Irishman is a lazy drunk?
No, it isn't. And for all the same reasons is why one manufacturing style isn't magically universally better than another.

RL-17 when used in the Creedmoor is a very temperature stable powder, I've posted this and the corroborating pressure data a few times.
In one of my visits down south, we tested Superformance, RL-17, and H-4350 with the pressure trace. Any amount of heat soak or temps you care to test won't produce any unicorns out of those three, just some solid choices four you to use.
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Old 04-19-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by land&groove View Post
With H-4350 difficult to keep in stock, thinking of trying Ramshot hunter in the 6.5 Creedmoor. Quite a lot of data seems to indicate a good fit. My main concern is that being a fine ball powder, it may exhibit temp insensitivity on par with, say Re 17.
Anyone tried it in the 6.5C?

I would try Hybrid 100V. I've had excellent results with that powder in a few cartridges. Is very similar to h4350 in burn rate and meters better.
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Old 04-19-2017, 09:45 AM
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Our go-to for 6.5 CM is RL-17, why don't you try the Hunter and tell us how it is. How did you allow yourself to run out of a primary powder? If you were local, I would make you a deal on either.
H-4350 is here:Powder Valley, Inc.
RL-17 can be had:Browsing ALLIANT
or here https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...ategoryId/3512
Sounds like you already have a line on Hunter.
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  #5  
Old 04-20-2017, 06:29 AM
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I ain't sure what temperature sensitivity is. It might be in the same taxonomy as chupacabras.

I've fired H-4831 in warm weather and well below freezing. Ain't yet had a problem with a bullet hitting big game.
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Old 04-20-2017, 04:17 PM
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I've used Ramshot Hunter in my Creedmoor a decent amount. I don't have any reasonable way to test it repeatedly in the cold here, barring me going to Darkker's part of the world in the winter, which I see as pure silliness.

Hunter works well in the Creedmoor. Because of my climate, I haven't tested Hunter for cold-resistance, so I can't comment from experience on that.

Another good option is IMR-4451, if you want to give that a try.
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Old 04-20-2017, 10:29 PM
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Thanks to all for the responses.
I purchase my powder at the retail store where I work. It has the best pricing around but because of that, supply can be an issue. Ramshot Hunter is plentiful and in stock so I guess I'll grab a couple pounds and check it out.
I'm not a big fan of ball powders, but I have some pretty good loads developed in 223 Remington and 308 Winchester with 748.
So far I've tried IMR 4166, H4350, and IMR 4350. They all work very well in the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I also have some superformance and reloader 17 I may try.
Thanks again for everyone's opinion.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:44 AM
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Originally Posted by land&groove View Post
I'm not a big fan of ball powders, but I have some pretty good loads developed in 223 Remington and 308 Winchester with 748.
I'm not a fan of extruded powders for the most part, and have used BL-C2/W748, and W760/H-414 for most of my shooting for decades. Summer ground hogs and winter foxes get the same load with the first two, deer and antelope get the same load with the second two. (There's a lot of difference between September antelope temperatures, and whitetails in November in the NE).

It doesn't seem to make any difference with that set of propellants, and I don't think they are pumped for temp stability.

My comment/question for the "Powder Pro's" is: how much difference do you see in real world applications between 20 degrees and 90 degrees?
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:55 AM
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Remembering that it's application specific, there is no infallible Catholic Church, nor powder that is magically "extreme" in any setting. Then it depends upon what you are wanting to know.
Just as Hodgdon's extreme data shows, one of "their" magical powders shows less velocity variation than a rather old ball powder by a meager 5 fps across a 140 temp difference. Some naval testing with current ball powders is much wider temp swings, and the tested ball powders spank the older "extreme" types.

But that I've measured, a cranky combo across that range will change velocity by 100-150fps, but have seen 200+ from something I was leaning on. A stable combo can be many things, but my tightest was only different by @ 10fps.
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Old 04-21-2017, 08:49 PM
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Precision rifle blog did a test between Hodgdon extreme powders and the new IMR enduron powders as far as temperature sensitivity goes, it's worth a look.
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  #11  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:45 AM
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I got through the first paragraph before my B.S. meter pegged.
PRB does have some interesting reports sometimes, but they are a hype generator mostly. Give them the Credence that they and the Enquirer deserve... They were there same people who's outlandish and frankly embarrassingly false regergitations, caused me to actually test the FlatLine bullets.

Here is the original article showing they won't question any magic claim when no proof is given.
First Look: New Super-High-BC Flat Line Bullets - PrecisionRifleBlog.com

Here are some actual tests from people who don't believe in Voodoo.
https://www.shootersforum.com/handlo...-part-one.html

https://www.shootersforum.com/handlo...e-episode.html
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  #12  
Old 04-23-2017, 07:06 AM
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IMR4451 and H4350 are the same powder so if IMR is in stock I'd pick it up. Otherwise, Ramshot Hunter is a great powder in my 270 but I don't know how it'd work in your Creedmor.
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Old 04-23-2017, 11:04 AM
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IMR4451 and H4350 are the same powder...
Can you point us to a source to verify this? I'm short on H-4350, but have a nearly-full bottle of IMR-4451. I'd like verification on what you say before I go drop $32 on a pound of powder I might already have in the IMR-4451. IMR/DuPont advertise the new Enduron powders as being capable of reducing copper fouling. I have never heard of H-4350 being said to reduce copper fouling.
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  #14  
Old 04-23-2017, 03:13 PM
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It was an interview with Chris Hodgdon:

http://www.hawaiireporter.com/qa-wit...-powder-people

Q: Back in 1996 you introduced the Extreme lineup of rifle powders which in essence makes the powder consistent across a broad spectrum of temperatures. Thus your point of impact will not be effected by change in temperature. How does your new IMR Enduron enhanced technology fit into this arena?

A: Yes that’s correct, it took us several years to educate handloaders on the concept of “Extreme.” The new line of IMR Enduron powders are just as good in the category of temperature insensitivity, in addition as a bonus, we’ve added the CFE technology eliminating copper fouling buildup. IMR Enduron powders come in four different burn speeds that are “clones” to many of our popular Hodgdon Extreme powders including IMR4166 (Varget), IMR4451 (H4350), IMR4955(H4831), IMR7977(H1000).
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Old 04-24-2017, 08:47 AM
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They're absolutely _not_ the same powder. The IMR is a double-base powder manufactured by General Dynamics here in N. America. The H is a single-base powder manufactured by Thales in Australia.

The "clones" comment was I believe intended to indicate that they're aimed at the same uses.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:42 PM
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Remember Hodgdon's pecking order in the scheme of powder as well.

"They" didn't introduce the CFE tech, they finally bought some newer tech on that front. If they were super concerned about it's virtues for the handloader, they would have been advertising it's usage in 748, and the 414/760 lines for the past few decades(If not forever). Since we know that isn't the case, moving on to some newer (as far as the American consumer knows) copper cleaning components found in what we call CFE223. That powder, or it's various incantations leading up to it; has been out in the wild for well over a decade now. Many of us were burning mountains of surplus SMP-842 while General Dynamics was working on the military Green ammo project. Then one fine day all that surplus on the various G auction sites was bought by Hodgdon and suddenly we have CFE223 at a price increase of $14/#.

If you call Hodgdon and ask about the use of Superformance powder in the Creedmoor, you will get told that it has absolutely no place, and would likely even be dangerous. Yet we see that it has a very nice fit in the Creedmoor, when referencing Hornady's various manuals. Dave Emary who is currently Hornady's head ballistician, was a powder designer for many years at General Dynamics. Dave knows what he built, and what it can or cannot do. The company that buys surplus to repackage or buys certain characteristics in a general burning rate, while very useful for us as the canister grade consumer; should not be held as a supreme technical power house. You can also notice they continue to reprint the less than appropriate CUP data for high pressure cartridges..

Last fall they began sourcing IMR-4064 in 8# jugs from Rhinemetal, while continuing the 1# bottles from General Dynamics. There was no caution printed, no PSA, nothing. Those two powders are not the same. I have no doubt that it is a similar enough burning rate, as to easily fit the roles they desire for it; but it is not the same powder. This is why I personally think they refuse to list any nominal attributes for the things they resell, they buy least cost and blend. Meaning that there is a rather wide range of what goes into a thing to get to a desired burning range.
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Old 04-24-2017, 03:52 PM
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Maybe I took the "clone" too literally, as to me that means duplicate. But I do believe they were designed to be very similar and enough so that those that can't find H4350 are using it with very similar loads. I see that some loads listed by Hodgdon are so similar there is less than 1% difference between the Extreme and it's Enduron equivenlent. That's pretty close when different lots of the same powder can vary as much as 3%. So maybe not exactly the same, but similar enough that if you're out of one of these powders and having trouble getting it, it looks to be a good alternative. Most I've seen have reported great results, esp in the Creedmor.
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Old 04-25-2017, 07:52 PM
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Speaking of great results, I shot some ramshot Hunter with 140 grain SST yesterday. Seems very consistent with the little load development that I did. So far so good.
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Old 04-26-2017, 05:55 AM
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Nice shooting. I've also had excellent results with Hunter...giving both great accuracy and velocity.
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