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  #1  
Old 11-30-2006, 01:23 PM
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Load Development without a manual


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There are two ways to develop a load for cartridges that don't have available reloading data. These aren't a substitute for the data for common cartridges in the current reloading manuals. The first method uses the Powley Computer. This was a complex but useable cardboard slide rule using the math of Mr. Homer Powley. Several computer programs using his math are now available.

Suggest-A-Load, free, DOS
http://www.john-ross.net/suggestload.htm

WinLoad, free, Windows
http://www.stickledown.co.uk/

Load From A Disk, $, Windows, more features
http://www.loadammo.com/

The original Powley Computer:
http://geocities.com/nelstomlinson/sliderules.html

The Powley Math:
As the author has taken this page down, and it's only available on Wayback, I'd advise anyone interested to save it to disk now.
http://web.archive.org/web/200411260...imrpowder.html

The second method uses the QuickLoad program, which apparently uses a different and more sophisticated mathematical model.

By UncleNick:

Here is a direct link to the QuickLOAD page at NECO:

http://www.neconos.com/details3.htm

QuickLOAD was developed by a fellow engineer, and you can tell when you get into it. Unlike many other calculators, it makes no generalized assumptions about the characteristics common to powders. Instead, it uses data from laboratory testing of actual powder samples. This data is not published by the powder makers, who consider it proprietary (at least, it is until someone measures it).

A couple of interesting things pop out of this approach. Not every powder you might buy is on the list because they haven't all been tested yet (though the vast majority have been). Secondly, you will find a few disagreements between the positions of some powders on published burning rate charts and the burning rate order in the QL list. This is due to lot variation and may mean the particular lot tested for QL was not quite typical. The published lists may also be wrong, since even the powder makers don't want to foot the $50K bill for complete batteries of tests on each of their powder lots. As a result, QL makes no guarantees for their calculated results. You still need to back off predicted maximum loads and work them up.

Other kinds of detail you don't typically find elsewhere include that QL gives you the opportunity to enter the actual configuration and dimensions of your bore (how many lands and grooves and how deep and wide they are) to improve the accuracy of its muzzle velocity predictions. It has a case water capacity estimator so you can measure your fire-formed cases and replace the standard case capacity value with the estimate for more accurate pressure and powder burning predictions for your gun. It has features for everything from generating lists of powders and loads that meet a particular pressure or muzzle velocity, to full recoil effect estimation. There are 13 different result numbers generated for the recoil effects, alone. If you want the weight of the scope included and want to know how many peak pounds of force that scope will be subjected to by a particular load, here it is.

The program comes with an integral companion exterior ballistics program called QuickTARGET. It imports a QuickLOAD result directly to generate exterior ballistic tables and charts, though you can put any bullet or muzzle velocity in manually. It also plots shots on targets and you can see effects of sight adjustments and wind, etcetera.

One feature of QuickLOAD, for those interested, is it predicts bullet barrel time for a bullet in milliseconds (ms) based on the powder and bullet combination. This result and its number are used with Chris Long's Optimum Barrel Time calculator to predict sweet spot loads. Long uses QuickLOAD to get predicted matches to traveling pressure wave phase in the barrel. Since two powders can produce the same muzzle velocity with different barrel times, based on the burning characteristics, the QuickLOAD type calculation is needed for accuracy of this number.


Faults:

Like most high feature programs, most QuickLOAD users will never bother to try, much less actually use all the features or data. Too bad. It is an education just to run around and see the purposes of all these things. The large bullet database seems to have been entered hastily or acquired from unreliable sources in spots, and so it is off a bit or incomplete in some cases. For bullets you work with a lot, you want to measure them for yourself so you can enter any corrections to the date that comes with the program. You enter your own bullets by editing an existing bullet, but saving the changes under a new name in order to leave the original bullet's data intact.

There is a warning at the start of the program that its results are less precise with straight wall cases than with bottleneck cases, but that it errs on the side of exaggerating pressure in straight cases, so it errs on the side of safety. Relative results are always very good, so matching pressure to a known load works well. You can compensate for the straight wall error by adding a few % to the case water capacity.
worthit likes this.

Last edited by Jack Monteith; 12-09-2006 at 09:33 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-09-2006, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith

The Powley Math:
As the author has taken this page down, and it's only available on Wayback, I'd advise anyone interested to save it to disk now.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041126.../imrpowder.html
Hmm, I was unable to get this link to work ... got a message of "Data Retrieval Failure." Anyone else able to link to it?
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  #3  
Old 12-09-2006, 09:36 PM
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Try it now. It's a complicated link with a "http" in the middle as well as in front. If it doesn't work for you copy and paste this in your address bar.

http://web.archive.org/web/20041126010343/http://www.aeroballisticsonline.com/ballistics/imrpowder.html

Bye
Jack

Last edited by Jack Monteith; 12-09-2006 at 09:41 PM.
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  #4  
Old 12-09-2006, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith
Try it now. It's a complicated link with a "http" in the middle as well as in front. If it doesn't work for you copy and paste this in your address bar.

http://web.archive.org/web/200411260...imrpowder.html

Bye
Jack
Thanks Jack ..... that works ....
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  #5  
Old 12-10-2006, 08:22 PM
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A Cautionary Note from James Gates

From James Gates:

Now.......Homer Powley and Maynard Yard, both being friends of mine. I talked to Homer two weeks before he died. He was alert to the end. During that converastion, Homer expressed concern that the .86% used in his calculations were misunderstood in some upcoming computer programs. It is the relative density of IMR powders to water! Not some safety features. Homer's math only involves the DuPont IMR powers.
Here is why:
(1) All IMR powders produce the same amount of pressure per grain weight in the Enclosed Bomb.......it's the burning rate that changes, most of the time at 5%, up or down.
(2) The pressure curve of IMR powders is linear, while Ball powder pressure curve is parabolic.
(3) With the same powder.....5% increase in weight gives 5% increase in velocity, but 10% increase in pressure. The reverse is also true.
(4) The average density of IMR powders to water is .86%.
(5) The Powley Computer designs a load giving 44,000/45,000 psi. Therefore using the 5%-5%-10% factor, one can develop a load based on their action strength....or even a safe reduced load that could be dangerous with Ball powder.
Now......My concerns are not with Homer's math or computer....but rather with some of the computer progams that mix IMR and Ball powders with some take off of Homer's math........the .86% factor. Since Ball powder pressure curve is parabolic, a dangerous spike can occur!
I have always wanted to see a computer progrm based on just Homer's math with IMR powders. It would be very straight forth! Then the 5%-5%-10% factors of IMR powders could be very precise in velocity and pressure. I really don't want to get into a pissing contest with these computer programs and rather dwell completely on Homer's work with IMR powders.
Regards, James
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  #6  
Old 09-11-2007, 01:55 AM
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your best best is to pick up a free guide from one of the powder manufacturers and follow their instructions to the letter; powder, primer, bullet, and reduction from max charge. Work up from minimum charge in .5 grain increments or else go to Sierra's page and find their most accurate load and religiously follow their load data. It has worked for me when I didn't have the luxury of experimenting with a new cartridge.
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  #7  
Old 09-11-2007, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith
From James Gates:Now.......Homer Powley and Maynard Yard, both being friends of mine.

Jack,
You pick good friends. Both of these men were heroes of mine in the 1960s.
This is my favorite picture of Ed Yard. Into the 1980s it was not easy to step out the back door and check the velocity of a new handload. Most of us cannot appreciate how good we have it now with the tools, computers, powders, bullets, optics and the wide variety of all these things and more. In the pre-calculator days, not to mention pre-computer, dream-designing wildcats was a much more involved process. I am certain you remember E. H. Harrison and his file cards with the holes and notches around the edges and the wire rod for sorting. We used this method of storing data for some time.
Beartooth Forum member C.E. Harris published formulas for pocket-scientific calculators and these were very useful to the experimenter.
I sometimes read criticisms of early wildcatters and handloaders for their methods of developing load data. When all they had was a micrometer and slide rule thats what they used it was that or stop shooting. I like to think of myself as young but I well remember my father buying surplus powder at Buds House of Guns on North 4th. Street in Albuquerque and bringing it home in a paper sack. I also remember him setting up nights trying to figure out how to make one powder do many jobs.
Homers slide rule is still handy and relevant in todays world and Ill admit Wayne Blackwells Loads From A Disc may be handier and I often wish I had it. Whenever I start a new project it is with IMR powder because you can bet your backside on what is going to happen.
I believe this is the first time I have ever said this out loud but I get a good laugh when I read a thread which states: there are too many cartridges or a new cartridge is unnecessary. We learn by doing and make fortunes convincing the public they need what we make Who am I to discourage an inquisitive mind or eager entrepreneur.
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  #8  
Old 09-11-2007, 10:37 PM
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I regret to say I did not know those gentlemen. From James Gates. James knew them and did that part of the write-up.

Bye
Jack
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  #9  
Old 09-12-2007, 05:10 PM
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I saw that and passed right on
Is anyone else a fan of Dr. Paul Schiffelbein? His article in the 1996 issue of Handloaders Digest: "Cartridge Case Shape Important?" is a classic. It takes more than a few readings on this article to get a handle on the math I am math challenged but my computer seems to make up for my short comings
There are a few young people around today who are very sharp and undoubtedly these shooters and experimenters will rise to most unknown status in time.
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  #10  
Old 06-19-2008, 07:35 AM
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I run Macintosh OS 9.2.2. Under physical duress I will run OS X 10.3.9. I cannot run DOS or Windows applications. Is this the point where someone allows me to furnish data and their ballistic software does its job?

I am nearly certain I want to convert my Miroku M1886 to 50 Express. But there are no published pressure tested data on this modernized 50-110 cartridge, with 400-550-grain hard cast bullets, at the 40,000 psi (give or take) the action is capable of handling.
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Old 06-19-2008, 07:51 AM
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Some items from http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ are written for the Mac. I haven't tryed their products myself.

Bye
Jack
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  #12  
Old 06-19-2008, 08:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Monteith View Post
Some items from http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ are written for the Mac. I haven't tryed their products myself.

Bye
Jack
Jack:

I just checked the web site. Bupkes for Macintosh operating systems.
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  #13  
Old 01-01-2009, 04:30 AM
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Homer Powley was also a friend. I guess I have about the last if not the last letter he wrote before he died. He sent me a copy of his book but I confess I have not found a computer of his design.

Insofar as Quick Load is concerned that is one fine program. I just used it extensively to determine a safe load for a 6.5 Daudeteau which obviously is not a listed cartridge. It is made on a 71 Mauser Action rebarreled in 1890s.
I determined it held 63 grains of water so I went down the vast list of 6.5 bullets and found a case that held 63 grains of water and my chronograph readings were within five feet of the Quick Load calculations with no signs of pressure.

The program is like 155.00 bucks but I figure I have saved a thousand bucks in reloading componants so far not to mention the time.

Homer would have loved to have one I am sure.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:03 AM
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[quote=Humpy;

Homer would have loved to have one I am sure.[/quote]


Humpy
<O</O
I’ll bet he would have.
I have wondered what volume of work Ed Yard, Bob Hutton and Homer Powley could have turned out if the had a modern computer and plotter along with Dr. Oehler’s Ballistic Lab. It would be like giving Harry Pope and P.O. Ackley a CNC Lathe!
The vast majority of us have very little patience and rather short attention spans.
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Old 01-01-2009, 05:12 AM
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"The vast majority of us have very little patience and rather short attention spans."

That is not the only thing we have little of and is short haha



Bill Davis is still with us last I heard though he is like 95 now and he is with it. Bob McCoy would have loved it too as would Dave Perrin and Larry Moore.
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  #16  
Old 06-22-2009, 06:57 PM
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safe smokeless load for .45 colt for black powder gun

Hello out there...new to site and reloading!! Purchased a Pietta .44 Remington 1858 and converted w/krist .45 long colt cylinder. Looking for a safe load to load smokeless powder into "cowboy" loads that would be safe to fire in this gun. If the mfg. recommends specs on this cartridge which powder is popular for this purpose that would include load specs? Any info would be greatly appericated! Thanks!!
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Old 06-22-2009, 07:32 PM
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Welcome to the forum. Rules are to join in and have fun and be polite. More rules are in the General Discussion forum stickies. One of them is not to double-post a question because that consumes board bandwidth, which has been known to run out near the end of the month sometimes.

IMR Trail Boss powder was made specifically for the purpose you describe. It is the cleanest burning powder I've ever used. Data for it is at Hodgdon.com in its Reloading Data Center.

For future questions, if you start a whole new thread with your question instead of tagging onto an old one you will get more responses. Each forum has a New Thread button in the upper left, just before the listed threads start.
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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

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Old 07-12-2009, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Naphtali View Post
I run Macintosh OS 9.2.2. Under physical duress I will run OS X 10.3.9. I cannot run DOS or Windows applications. Is this the point where someone allows me to furnish data and their ballistic software does its job?

I am nearly certain I want to convert my Miroku M1886 to 50 Express. But there are no published pressure tested data on this modernized 50-110 cartridge, with 400-550-grain hard cast bullets, at the 40,000 psi (give or take) the action is capable of handling.
Did you ever find loads for your 50 Express? I too am looking for I have the converted Miroku.
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Old 07-13-2009, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Dudemeister View Post
Did you ever find loads for your 50 Express? I too am looking for I have the converted Miroku.
Being unable to locate what I wanted, I applied the meat cleaver. I traded the Miroku to its original owner for a Freedom Arms Model 83.
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Old 02-09-2010, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Jack Monteith View Post
There are two ways to develop a load for cartridges that don't have available reloading data. ...
I can design a wildcat, cut the chamber, make the dies, and work up a load with an unknown powder, simply by reading the fired brass... but I wouldn't want my kids to do that.

It doesn't matter how good your kid's grades were in college if they want to do something no one has done before. But I recently gave a press, cases, bullets, dies, primers, and an unknown powder [Herter's 164] to a guy who has never reloaded. I worked with him on designing some jet engine starter electronics, and I have seen some of his inventions. I could also tell by the questions he asked when I explaing what a work up was, that he had the brains to work up a load without load data.

Last edited by tnekkc; 02-09-2010 at 07:46 AM.
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