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  #1  
Old 12-25-2008, 06:31 PM
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Because technology and gun strength are constantly changing, this board allows almost unrestricted posting of technical information, much of which is unsuitable for any but advanced reloaders to attempt to work with. In order to protect the less experienced and less cautious persons from making unwarranted assumptions and thereby hurting themselves, we ask that all descriptions of Heavy and Extra Heavy loads be preceded with the following caution. Please copy and paste it into your post.

CAUTION: This post discusses loads or load data that equals or exceeds published maximums for the cartridge(s) mentioned. Neither the writer, The Shooter's Forum, nor the staff of The Shooter's Forum assume any liability for damage or injury resulting from using this information. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO DUPLICATE THE DESCRIBED LOADS without first working them up from a published safe starting level charge while watching for pressure signs. If you don't know how to do that, don't try.
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Last edited by unclenick; 12-25-2008 at 06:37 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-23-2011, 07:32 AM
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My Apology To All of You

I recently gave out my personal loading info for my 45 X 7.62x54R, which I use in a 45 Colt/ 410 Contender barrel. I obtained the actual load from my 1973 Lyman Cast Bullet Manual, and it was a cast bullet load for the 45/70 1873 Springfield, and not for the 444 Marlin. Its the mildest load for a 45/70, so I use it in my Contender where its still a relatively mild but extremely accurate load. BUT may not be the case with your own firearm. So I apologize for my mistake
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  #3  
Old 02-23-2011, 10:36 AM
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Unhappy

I quit posting load information a couple of years ago after I finally realized that even with disclaimers and wiggle words, it NEVER works for some people.

Not only that but this is the WORLD wide web...everything that goes on the net is saved in some database somewhere...EVEN the bad guys have access which seems to blow by most "have" peoples. How much information do you think the "human bomb" makers have gleaned from the net?

Humans have the problem of ego...anyone posting on the net with "their words of wisdom" and need to "make a statement" or "argue minutiae" could be construed as "giving aid and comfort to the enemy", although any egotistical person doesn't really care about that.

I also stopped posting pictures because some cameras/cell phones have a GPS program that stamps the location in the pictures data which can be retrieved for whatever use by the retriever.

It's a very disquieting thought that is slowly sinking into my consciousness and I think I will stop posting.

Luck
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  #4  
Old 02-23-2011, 01:13 PM
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You just need to learn to get indirect. For posting you can use a service that supplies a secondary IP's that is reported to sites you visit, so your actual remains unidentified except to the security service (Anonymizer is one such service, but there may well be others by now, as it's been around awhile). A free service for anonymizing your use of the Google search engine is Scroogle, which keeps Google from accumulating data on your search interests. Just download and install the scraper. Free. You can use a screen capture program like Snag-It to capture photos from your computer display while you view them, then saves them under a new name or in a different format. That drops any other data that was with the picture, such as date and time stamps or location if it were there. The lower resolution that results is actually more appropriate for computer sharing 99% of the time.

This is getting geeky and off topic, but I figure other shooters may be interested in using some of these kinds of services.
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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Last edited by unclenick; 09-03-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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  #5  
Old 02-23-2011, 05:56 PM
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There are days when I feel ignorant!
I enjoy discussing shooting and reloading and if I am hauled off someday for incorrect thought, I guess it will just have to happen.

The thought of a gps position embedded in your picture is thought provoking.
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  #6  
Old 02-26-2011, 07:28 AM
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It makes sense that the data could be useful if you happened to shoot a picture of a crime or an accident or just wanted to know where on the map you were standing when you took the photo. The phone I have now not only has GPS and compass functions built in, but has a level sensor that lets you play a pinball type game by tilting it very gently. Surprisingly sensitive. In combination, it knows what direction the camera was pointing and at what slope angle when you take a photo. Makes it possible to locate something you took a picture of pretty accurately. The newest smart pad/iPad type devices have two cameras built in for 3D stereoscopic image making, so range finding can't be far behind.

Fortunately, you can turn all that stuff off, too. Being tracked or doing tracking is still optional on mine, But turning the phone off is still pretty definitive, AFAIK. I don't think they've got passive tracking devices in them yet, but maybe I'm wrong. Even so, you have to be within a relatively short distance of those things for them to work.

All in all, the technology is useful, but clearly its development is far outpacing the development of a cultural philosophy of ethics for its use.

So, it's scary, but to put it in a shooting-related context, think what a terrific sight adjustment application you can write with all that technology! Point the thing up slope and together with Bryan Litz's measured bullet BC database, you'd know right where to dial the elevation.
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"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Last edited by unclenick; 02-26-2011 at 07:31 AM.
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  #7  
Old 09-03-2011, 11:47 AM
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Reloading

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
It makes sense that the data could be useful if you happened to shoot a picture of a crime or an accident or just wanted to know where on the map you were standing when you took the photo. The phone I have now not only has GPS and compass functions built in, but has a level sensor that lets you play a pinball type game by tilting it very gently. Surprisingly sensitive. In combination, it knows what direction the camera was pointing and at what slope angle when you take a photo. Makes it possible to locate something you took a picture of pretty accurately. The newest smart pad/iPad type devices have two cameras built in for 3D stereoscopic image making, so range finding can't be far behind.

Fortunately, you can turn all that stuff off, too. Being tracked or doing tracking is still optional on mine, But turning the phone off is still pretty definitive, AFAIK. I don't think they've got passive tracking devices in them yet, but maybe I'm wrong. Even so, you have to be within a relatively short distance of those things for them to work.

All in all, the technology is useful, but clearly its development is far outpacing the development of a cultural philosophy of ethics for its use.

So, it's scary, but to put it in a shooting-related context, think what a terrific sight adjustment application you can write with all that technology! Point the thing up slope and together with Bryan Litz's measured bullet BC database, you'd know right where to dial the elevation.
My old Lyman Eloctronic scale went bad had used it for years. Purchased a new RCBS scale and pulled some bullets from rounds that were loaded with the Lyman and checked them with the RCBS and they are a full grain lighter with the RCBS. If you change anything double check what you are doing.
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  #8  
Old 07-13-2014, 03:14 PM
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I have not yet posted heavy and extra heavy load data that requires the use of the disclaimer in Post#1, so if I find a reasonably-priced polaroid camera at a garage sale I might buy it.
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  #9  
Old 07-13-2014, 07:59 PM
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Unclenick,
When in Black Powder loading is the disclaimer needed? From what I have read to date BP loads should have a Fill percentage fo 99 to over 100 percent (for compressed charges) of case net volume.
Which end fo the range would need the disclamer?

I do know Duplex loads and straight Smokeless Powder loads would need the Disclaimer for anything above basic Starting level charges or if someone is reporting REDUCED H-110 or W296 charges.

Best Regards,
Chev. William
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Old 07-14-2014, 03:47 AM
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Good question. I suspect it would come up mainly in the context of muzzle loading rifles where you are not limited by a cartridge case as to how much powder you can put in. Recommending 3F where 2F or F is called for is another possibility. I don't have enough experience with BP to say more without researching it a bit.

The difficulty with muzzle loaders is, without cases there are few pressure signs available to study before safe pressure is exceeded. You can attach a strain gauge instrument and take a measurement. You can use a micrometer to measure the chamber expanding permanently by more than 0.1% (the strain result of what the British call proof stress, where we use 0.2% and call it yield stress), and then back off by a factor of two. I read somewhere that, in centuries past, BP cannon were proofed with double the design charge, and if that didn't stretch the gun more than 0.1%, it passed and the normal charge used thereafter. All in all, I think the strain gauge and slow work up is a more elegant solution.
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  #11  
Old 07-14-2014, 07:01 AM
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IMHO - the blanket disclaimer policy should apply to ALL loading issues. As speculated, 2F, 3F, 4F, duplex, etc., all could be misunderstood and cause injury or firearm destruction.
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2014, 05:54 PM
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Unclenick and Kdub,
I guess I was not clear, or made an "assumption" in my question about Black Powder loads and use to 'Disclaimer'.

From my point of view I was asking about CARTRIDGE Black Powder only, BP and Smokeless Duplex, and straight Smokeless Powder Loads as that is what I am interested in.

1. What is the Maximum Compression for a given Black Powder charge?
1a. What is the Minimum Compression for a given Black Powder Charge?
2. What level of "fill" of black powder would require the 'Di8sclaimer' to be added?
3. Which Grades of BP would Require a 'Disclaimer' for Cartridge use?
4. Does that vary with the net volume of the case?
5. How does 'seating depth' of the bullet in the CARTRIDGE affect Black Powder loads?

These Questions come to mind due to the answers posted to date.

Example: I have loaded a .25ACP case with 4.5 Grains of 3fg Goex and seated the bullet initially to .840" overall length, which resulted in the case 'bulging and 'locking into the Shell Holder.

I then loaded the next trial at .850" Overall length with out the case bulging.
NOTE: this is the same 4.5 grain 3fg Goex Charge, 25ACP Cases and 50 Grain JRN Bullets.

Normal overall length for the .25ACP is about .900" (with Smokeless powders).

Would this load need the disclaimer?

What about a Grade 3 PTL Blank inserted in a 9/32"x.014"wall Brass tube swaged down to .276" diameter, trimmed to a "Case Length of 1.118", and using a 51 grain Lead Bullet to substitute for a ".25 Stevens RF"?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Last edited by chevwilliam; 08-05-2014 at 05:56 PM.
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  #13  
Old 01-10-2016, 03:47 PM
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changes

Quote:
Originally Posted by bgr2014 View Post
My old Lyman Eloctronic scale went bad had used it for years. Purchased a new RCBS scale and pulled some bullets from rounds that were loaded with the Lyman and checked them with the RCBS and they are a full grain lighter with the RCBS. If you change anything double check what you are doing.
I always used an RCBS 5-10 balance scale, it came in my original rock chucker kit. I liked it so much that later on I bought 2 more through ebay. I found a similar condition with those newer scales compared to my old one. One was nearly 1 full grain different. So I bought a set of RCBS Deluxe Scale Check Weights 510.5 Grains, back in the day the price was $29.95 I see now they are nearly $50. Still a worthwhile investment because it removes all your questions about "those unknowns". Using those check weights I re-calibrated my new scales to read exactly what the check weights were. Now all is good in my world.
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