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12K views 19 replies 13 participants last post by  pdawg.shooter#1 
#1 ·
After the reaction I got today in the local reloading supply shop, I hesitate to ask my question here. When I told the guy what I was doing, he looked at me as if I had shown him my al Qaeda membership card. Then he went into lawyer mode, stopped answering my questions, and told me he wasn't going to sell me anything "for that purpose".

And I realize this is potentially dangerous territory, which is why I am trying to ask a lot of questions and understand the issue.

I am trying to make blanks. My interest in photography has gotten me into filmmaking, and I am going to be helping out with a short film that involves some shooting. (Yes, I know, don't shoot at anyone, even if it is a blank.) I have a set of Hornady "Cowboy Action Blank Cartridge" dies, which puts a rosette crimp on any case from 22 to 45 caliber.

However, I don't know what to put in the cases. Black powder is all I know. The instructions with the dies tell me to use black powder. The little information I have found online has said to use black powder. Smokeless powder causes set-back primers. But what kind of black powder and how much? I basically know nothing about black powder.

These will either go into a 32 H&R Magnum or a 38 Special.

I gather that there are different burn rates of black powder, resulting from different granual size. I assume I want a fast-burning powder. What indicates the powder's burn rate, and how do I select one?

Does black powder, like smokeless powder, require a certain amount of pressure to burn fast? Or is this not a factor for black powder, and hence the reason why black powder is better for blanks?

How is black powder measured? Recipes on the bottles say things like "100 gr. vol.", and I know muzzle loaders use a fixed powder measure that measures by volume. Can I convert grains of volume to cubic centimeters?

And the big question is, how much to use? When I experimented with smokeless powder blanks in a 44 Magnum, I picked the fastest burning powder I had on hand, and I used the amount of powder listed in a 45 LC load. It worked okay, except for the set-back primers. What could I use as a starting point for a black powder load?

Obviously, I don't want to do anything unsafe, and I don't want to blow up a gun. I don't want to just try things that have been untested. If Hornady makes dies for cowboy action blanks, it stands to reason that there are people who do this kind of thing all the time. I just haven't been able to find any information on it.
 
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#2 ·
I can't help you much,with loading blank cartridges.
I can tell you that black powder is measured by volume.The black powder measure has lines that designate approximate weights.Nobody,that I know actually weighs black powder for shooting.
The finer,FFFF grade black powder is the fastest burning;Coarser grade,FF,is slower burning.
You can buy old military blank cartridges,and dump the powder for your own use.It is pink colored,and good for nothing else.Trust me;I know.
You will probably wind up using finer black powder.
Frank
 
#3 ·
Uncruel,
I will be anxiously watching and learning. I would never have thought this an issue. I remember growing up with all the cowboy ranch shows, Six Flags, Stagecoach rides, train rides and subsequent robbers. there was always a shoot out! The motion picture industry has to use them as well. They make blank cartridges for 22 and 223 that I know of. Why not discuss blanks. Maybe you just got someone who knew nothing about what you asked or reloading altogether. Seems like a good question to me. Does Cowboy action shooting always use live rounds? I don't know.
Thanks,
Greg
 
#8 ·
I remember growing up with all the cowboy ranch shows, Six Flags, Stagecoach rides, train rides and subsequent robbers. there was always a shoot out! The motion picture industry has to use them as well.
For the theatrical market, there appears to be a whole industry that manufactures reproduction firearms specifically made to fire blanks. They generally use an 8mm blank.
 
#4 ·
we load blanks for mounted shooting, and have more problems with black powder than smokeless. try opening the flash hole, not primer pocket, to .125. 12 or 14 grains of universal topped to the brim with cream of wheat, then a paper wad to top it off in a 45LC gives a nice boom and pops a baloon pretty well. black powder gives more spark, smoke, and busts a baloon better, but were having a problem with set back primers. be careful with black powder and plastic, seems that you can have a problem with static electricity, wich causes major problems. (KABOOM) any help with black powder would be appreciated if anyone knows anything about it and blanks. i have filled a 45LC case to the brim with black powder, and a paper wad, without any problems, other than the set back primer. trying to figure this out myself.
 
#5 ·
P.S. we try not to crimp the blanks because it ruins the casing. try a paper wad, or patch, and press it tight to the powder. youre primers are set back from a lack of back pressure from a projectile. like i said, we are having the same problem, only were having it with black powder, the smokeless works fine in our ruger vaqueros. we have tried crimping black powder with the same results, the primer is pushed back and the gun locks up. im thinking of trying to figure out a way to crimp the primer in place, similar to what the military does. not sure how, or if it would work, just an idea.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Black powder burning, like any chemical reaction rate, is affected by pressure. Smaller granulations burn faster because they start out with more surface area for the flame front to act on. The granulation gets finer as the numbers of letters "F" accumulate. So, FG is coarser than FFG is coarser than FFFG is coarser than FFFFG. That last granulation is usually used in flintlock flash pans. It might be a good choice for black powder blanks, but I have no personal experience making them.

Black powder is a low explosive and it is not progressive burning. It's slowest speed in open air is a lot faster than smokeless powder burns in open air. However, that does not mean a blank cannot be made with smokeless powder. The military has special smokeless blank powder used for rifle grenade blanks and blanks for ceremonial salutes. I can't recall seeing it available surplus, though. It may be nearly pure nitrocellulose, which would burn fast enough?

Primer setback is due to pressure being too low to drive the case back hard enough to reseat the primer after firing. Primers always back out at the initial moment of firing because they make too much pressure too fast for the flash hole to vent before pushing the primer out backwards. Matt's advise to open the flash hole should help solve that. Somebody was making a primer crimping tool that I saw mentioned in a thread. Seems to me it was like a pocket swaging tool but sharper shouldered and with a hole in the center. Alignment would be critical. Crimping the case will shorten case life, but it might help build enough pressure to reseat primers, so I wouldn't give up on it without trying it out.

Don't worry about grain volumes. That's just a way the muzzle loading community has for substituting black powder substitutes for actual black powder in their guns. They use a volume that would give them X number of grains of black powder, even though the substitute doesn't weight that amount in that volume. All you need to do is weigh grains. I would try small charges. I can tell you that my cap and ball propels a .44 cal ball with 20 grains of FFFG. That is too much for what you are doing. I would start with 5 grains in the .38 Special and 3 grains in the .32. That is just SWAG, so the disclaimer applies. Use the lightest wad to start and work up. You've got a lot of gun cleaning ahead of you.
 
#7 ·
Okay, opening up the flash holes is something I had read somewhere and forgotten about. I will definitely have to try that. If that solves my primer set-backs, I will be happy.

Since this is for film, a little noise is good, but having some flash is more important. I may have to experiment with a few different powders to determine the best way to produce that result.

If black powder burns faster in open air, then that is probably why it is recommended for blanks. How corrosive, exactly, is black powder? Is it going to get into all the inner workings of the firearm?

What about real black powder versus pyrodex versus triple 7, etc? Are any of them completely non-corrosive? Do any of them have properties that would be beneficial for blanks in a centerfire?
 
#9 ·
If I recall, using the rosette tool means that you are only using the case once. It can be done with some smokeless powders, and I would suggest that you look at the loads for the calibres using things such as Bullseye, 700-X or Red Dot (easy to ignite and fast burning powders). Try some with the starting load and see what you get with noise and flash, as well as unburned powder in the barrel.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Both Remington and Winchester make 38 Special blanks if you don't want to risk messing something up. Several companies also make .22 LR blanks for Revolvers.

Remember to follow the basic rules of firearm safety with them, blanks are still very dangerous at close range.
 
#15 ·
Dangerous enough to kill someone at close range. Can anyone remember the name of the TV actor that killed himself with a blank back in the seventies? (This isn't a trivia question, I can't remember either).
 
#12 ·
You can get .22 LR blanks at any decent hardware store, they are for driving masonry anchors and such. They are surprisingly loud although I don't know about flash. Have also used them for launching dummies for dogs to retrieve.
 
#13 ·
Black powder makes a dandy mess. If you use it, you need to be prepared for that. The sulfur in it will combine with water to make SO3ˉ (sulfurous acid radicals) which can initiate corrosion, so you pretty much will find you want to detail strip the gun afterward, clean it with hot soapy water, then let it sit overnight in water displacing oil. WD-40 works, though it dries sticky, so you will want to replace it with regular gun lubricant after the water is gone.

I used to have a handfull of .32 S&W blanks in my basement somewhere. Can't lay my hands on them. I think my Grandfather had them in his stuff when he died, so they are pretty old. I recall they had a conventional roll crimp over the top wad.

The idea of trying a fast smokeless powder is still certainly worthwhile if you aren't wanting to mess with the cleaning. Try Hodgdon Clays. It is pretty quick, uses small quantities, and doesn't have all the graphite on it that some of the others do. Should be fairly clean.
 
#14 ·
Enlarging the flash hole will take care of the primer backing. Using blackpowder substitutes is not what it seems since the residue from Pyrodex and T7 are actually more corrosive than blackpower itself. The 3F grade of black powder will do fine for your needs. A good heavy spray of window cleaner with vinegar, brushing, drying and oiling with take care of cleanup. Black powder would also require less of an over powder wad (less projectile mass) than smokeless. Use about half the amount of powder as for a "bulleted" load ie; for .44 or .45 use about 15 grains. A full load of black will offer a blast and concussion that is quite unexpected.

About a zillion years ago, in the days of fast draw (we were thumb cockers-that's a long time ago) for indoor use we would drill through the primer pocket on a spent case and ream the edges until we could loosely insert a shot shell primer. Plenty of noise inside and you only had to shake them out to replace, not much flash though. A couple of outfits used to sell steel .44 and .45 "cases" with a "primer" hole drilled off center (so the firing pin would hit the rim) and contoured to take .22 blanks from the hardware store. Much more noise. Whatever you do, take care. Every one of these can offer a nasty injury to the careless.
 
#17 ·
Paddy,
This is whom I remember........

Actor Jon-Erik Hexum died when, during the taping of an episode of the TV series Cover Up, he jokingly put a prop gun to his temple and pulled the trigger. Wadding from the blanks was driven into his skull, and he died of brain damage. Cover Up did not last long, and was canceled in 1985.

Greg
 
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