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  #61  
Old 02-21-2014, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Hey Nick, you know what I'm up to, was working with the Barnes 175s and bumped into some problems (pressure). Saved examples to take pics... want me to pot them? Almost everything from cratered primers to case head.
Yes! That would be helpful. Also, mention how the charge weight you used compares to one for a 175 Sierra or similar cup and core bullet to provide some sense of the difference the bullet makes.

If you get a chance, check out the JDS Quick Measure. Mine throws the long sticks pretty accurately (0.2 grains). For dispensing by weight or using VMD's to calculate weight from volume, a Western Powders lab tech told me they measure bulk density at 70F and 60% R.H. Anything else changes the percent water in the powder and that changes the energy content of a given charge weight. Not a lot, but some. I have some powder I've been desiccating that's lost over a percent of its weight at this point. In the JDS, with the same setting, it throws charges of desiccated powder 1% lighter than it did the same powder pre-desiccated, so it keeps the energy content fairly constant. Anyway, the lesson is, if you weigh charges you don't want to let temperature and humidity wander around too dramatically.
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  #62  
Old 02-24-2014, 04:54 PM
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I signed on just to ask about this topic. Come spring I intend to reload some 38s and 357s. I noticed in polishing and checking, that around 50 of the nickle 357s have very flattened primers and some of the rims appear flattened also, the engraving is somewhat flattened. I checked for size and the rims appear to be within limits. A few I checked were at top end for length. The body of the brass is fine, no bulging or splitting. I don't really intend to trim to length, so after resizing I intend to toss those. Should I worry about these brass? From what I can find reading they were probably not overloaded but loaded to max.
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  #63  
Old 02-24-2014, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Yes! That would be helpful. Also, mention how the charge weight you used compares to one for a 175 Sierra or similar cup and core bullet to provide some sense of the difference the bullet makes.

If you get a chance, check out the JDS Quick Measure. Mine throws the long sticks pretty accurately (0.2 grains). For dispensing by weight or using VMD's to calculate weight from volume, a Western Powders lab tech told me they measure bulk density at 70F and 60% R.H. Anything else changes the percent water in the powder and that changes the energy content of a given charge weight. Not a lot, but some. I have some powder I've been desiccating that's lost over a percent of its weight at this point. In the JDS, with the same setting, it throws charges of desiccated powder 1% lighter than it did the same powder pre-desiccated, so it keeps the energy content fairly constant. Anyway, the lesson is, if you weigh charges you don't want to let temperature and humidity wander around too dramatically.
I normally use a Culver measure only, but with the long pellet powder, it's a bit of a problem. So I'm strictly using the Lyman Gen 6 electronic scale now.

Will get to it, it'll be more complete when the weather clears up and I can get back to finding the solution. Sun I stepping into the low impulse loads for 3 gun match and with one of the bullet's I want to work up a Coyote load.
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  #64  
Old 02-24-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by battleax View Post
I signed on just to ask about this topic. Come spring I intend to reload some 38s and 357s. I noticed in polishing and checking, that around 50 of the nickle 357s have very flattened primers and some of the rims appear flattened also, the engraving is somewhat flattened. I checked for size and the rims appear to be within limits. A few I checked were at top end for length. The body of the brass is fine, no bulging or splitting. I don't really intend to trim to length, so after resizing I intend to toss those. Should I worry about these brass? From what I can find reading they were probably not overloaded but loaded to max.

This is tricky for one reason. I have brass left over from pill testing the Ruger Security Six... what you describe is basically the way they look. If your description is accurate, I'd wouldn't load them anything even slightly "warm", in fact I'd suggest simply recycling them. Over stressed brass does fail.
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  #65  
Old 02-24-2014, 05:55 PM
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Thanks, I will recycle. I have around 100 good 357 brass and don't shoot 357 that often, mostly 38 light loads. I have a box of 158 grain RN lead to start. Then will load a few jacketed a bit hotter. Right now I am using wad cutters I had loaded for me. I have loaded shot shell for quite a few years and have a bit of experience loading 243s. This will be my first with handgun loads.
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  #66  
Old 02-24-2014, 06:41 PM
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I wouldn't toss handgun brass unless it split or was otherwise defective, but that's just me. In my experience the .357 can leave some terribly flat-looking primers with book loads. So I don't base any decisions on that.
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  #67  
Old 02-24-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by battleax View Post
Thanks, I will recycle. I have around 100 good 357 brass and don't shoot 357 that often, mostly 38 light loads. I have a box of 158 grain RN lead to start. Then will load a few jacketed a bit hotter. Right now I am using wad cutters I had loaded for me. I have loaded shot shell for quite a few years and have a bit of experience loading 243s. This will be my first with handgun loads.
There are plenty of places to get once fired commercial brass, and it's really not that expensive. You're wiser to play it safe with this stuff. I've seen one time where someone reloaded one of these and obviously the case self destructed. Not worth it.

Whew, with all the rounds I put through my old .357 Blackhawk (Cowboy matches), I honestly can't remember how much .357 I actually fired in it. Mainly cast bullets, 231 and lots of practice.
Never ask me about the sear break on that one. It was a 3 screw... not the current 2 screw.
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  #68  
Old 02-25-2014, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Yes! That would be helpful. Also, mention how the charge weight you used compares to one for a 175 Sierra or similar cup and core bullet to provide some sense of the difference the bullet makes.

If you get a chance, check out the JDS Quick Measure. Mine throws the long sticks pretty accurately (0.2 grains). For dispensing by weight or using VMD's to calculate weight from volume, a Western Powders lab tech told me they measure bulk density at 70F and 60% R.H. Anything else changes the percent water in the powder and that changes the energy content of a given charge weight. Not a lot, but some. I have some powder I've been desiccating that's lost over a percent of its weight at this point. In the JDS, with the same setting, it throws charges of desiccated powder 1% lighter than it did the same powder pre-desiccated, so it keeps the energy content fairly constant. Anyway, the lesson is, if you weigh charges you don't want to let temperature and humidity wander around too dramatically.
OK (FX the voice of WC fields)

"Tell you what I"m gonna do"

I've kept the pressure sign thing you wrote up and I'm going to add a few notes and redo it. I'll take pictures of the charlie foxtrots that come with pressure.
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  #69  
Old 02-25-2014, 08:12 AM
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Bob,

Cool.


Battleax,

I'll toss in a caveat that I think it depends how the brass got the way it did. If you picked it up like that, not knowing its load history, then it should be scrapped. If the change happened in just one load cycle, as it did with Bob's pill testing, I'd question the load and also scrap the brass. But if they got that way gradually over a number of load cycles, it's probably OK to shoot them until they split. I once ran 1000 bulk Winchester .45 Auto cases through 50 cycles of target loads (by which time about 2/3 were lost to splits and to range vanishing), measuring how much they shrank with with each load cycle. (Rounds fired at lower pressures and particularly in tapered chambers tend to shrink rather than grow, and these lost half a thousandth per load cycle.) By the end of that time the headstamps all were getting hard to read as the brass had flowed into the lines of each letter until they'd narrowed to fine crack lines. The pressure was probably only in the 10 kpsi range, so it took a long time and there was never a flattened primer involved.

Obviously, at magnum pressures brass flow would happen faster. If they've been growing in length, I would use a hooked paperclip or a dental tool to feel for a pressure ring and toss them if I could feel one, same as with rifle brass. Still, if the dimensions just in front of the rim are within normal and neither that nor the length is growing and there is no detectable pressure ring, you're probably OK to shoot them until they split. But if you have doubts you can always load them with 3 grains of Bullseye or 231 and put wadcutters in and have good practice loads till they split from crimping fatigue.
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  #70  
Old 02-25-2014, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Bob,

Cool.


Battleax,

I'll toss in a caveat that I think it depends how the brass got the way it did. If you picked it up like that, not knowing its load history, then it should be scrapped. If the change happened in just one load cycle, as it did with Bob's pill testing, I'd question the load and also scrap the brass. But if they got that way gradually over a number of load cycles, it's probably OK to shoot them until they split. I once ran 1000 bulk Winchester .45 Auto cases through 50 cycles of target loads (by which time about 2/3 were lost to splits and to range vanishing), measuring how much they shrank with with each load cycle. (Rounds fired at lower pressures and particularly in tapered chambers tend to shrink rather than grow, and these lost half a thousandth per load cycle.) By the end of that time the headstamps all were getting hard to read as the brass had flowed into the lines of each letter until they'd narrowed to fine crack lines. The pressure was probably only in the 10 kpsi range, so it took a long time and there was never a flattened primer involved.

Obviously, at magnum pressures brass flow would happen faster. If they've been growing in length, I would use a hooked paperclip or a dental tool to feel for a pressure ring and toss them if I could feel one, same as with rifle brass. Still, if the dimensions just in front of the rim are within normal and neither that nor the length is growing and there is no detectable pressure ring, you're probably OK to shoot them until they split. But if you have doubts you can always load them with 3 grains of Bullseye or 231 and put wadcutters in and have good practice loads till they split from crimping fatigue.
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  #71  
Old 03-19-2014, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Thanks for the photos. I will shamelessly link to them as illustrations where appropriate to do so.
Kick me in the shorts Nick, got a ton of brass to illustrate it. (yes I'm pushing pressures).

Sorry been busy setting my Star Back up.
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  #72  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:51 AM
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How many reloads for brass

On average, how man times can you reload brass?
Is there a Max, say 10 times?
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  #73  
Old 04-25-2016, 11:21 AM
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All depends on the brand of brass, how hot you load, whether full length or neck sizing, how often you trim and anneal the brass neck and shoulder. I've got some brass going on their 25th reloading.

The big boomers usually don't last as long as the others.
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  #74  
Old 04-26-2016, 01:15 AM
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Originally Posted by timothymattson View Post
On average, how man times can you reload brass?
Is there a Max, say 10 times?
This is a question you have to be a bit more specific with.

Straight walled pistol I reload till they crack
Rifles, I am primarily .30. I have .308 and 30-06 that's reloaded at least 30 times.

Question is: Rifle or Pistol, what caliber, what kind of load and are you prepared to properly prep and maintain your brass. Humpy has brass that's seen more reloads that I want to think about, but those are military .308 cases and he like me anneals the brass every 4th or 5th reload.
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  #75  
Old 04-26-2016, 07:48 AM
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One of the best articles written that I have found was mentioned above is an older Handloader number 99 written by Ken Waters in 1982 that goes into a lot of areas like many of his articles needs to be read slow. Many times I would disagree because I felt he was too conservative but of course he was safe.I have a tendency to red line most of my loads and have paid the price.
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  #76  
Old 05-22-2016, 04:31 PM
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Good information for the most part, but 34 items isn't all that realistic: My approach for the last 65 or so years has been as follows and Ive never damaged myself or a gun, had a few mishaps and learned from each of them, but nothing more serious than a oversize primer hole, a stuck case or two: and a couple of case blown in half ( old Winchester lever action and old brass ) not too uncommon..One one occasion I have a spew of hot gas in the forehead but had shooting glasses and that came about from a misprint in a reloading book...All in all you not in any real trouble until you blow a gun up and that's inexcusable IMO, and definitely from pure stupidity or lack of focus...That said:


I start my loading on a new caliber at about most reloading manual starting loads, and work up a grain at a time, then a half grain at a time as I close..I have found that flattened primers are a poor indication of pressure as the metal is of different hardnesses, but it can be an indication with matched up with other pressure signs so proceed slowly...A sticky bolt or a ejector indention on the case head, and sometimes a half circle on the case head, and a black ring around the primer, any of these means your getting right up there, so any of these alone or combined with each other means back off a grain or perhaps two, but first mic the case head and -0- expansion from a once fired case from that particular rifle..some will allow .005 expansion as max..Other things to look for is a less than normal explosion on firing, usually a crack as opposed to a boom, A ring around the case head indicates the beginning of a separation in some instances so use a bent piece of wire or paper clip sharpened and feel that ring from the inside, if you feel it back off a grain or two..

As you can see just one of the above may or may not be a problem but if combined with any other then you have progress a tad too far, so back off....

One of the best aids is a chronograph, if your getting more velocity than usual, your load is likely to be on the warm side, but reloading books are flawed, inasmuch as they fear law suits, and so many unsafe guns are out there..Calibers such as the 7x57, the 6.5 and others are terribly undloaded in reloading books because of the old mod. 95 and 96s floating around out there..

If im dealing with a wildcat I have to coorelate, combooberate and lasticate a starting load and that's a whole nuther ball game..

Last but not least is when you shoot your test loads use the same brass over and over and be on the look out for loose primers, that's a tell tale mark of high pressures...Seperated cases are usually old brass that's become brittle,so play that safe, load your rounds about 10 times or so and toss them or anneal after every firing and cases last almost forever, but cheap brass and 10 loads suits me, I toss them and buy new stuff as a rule, but with hard to come by brass annealing is the way to go..

Hope I didn't leave anything out..

Everyone of my rifles gets this treatment, I KNOW where maximum is on all of them..Knowing that gives me a secure feeling and I know the stops...

It sounds tough but you will catch on pretty quick, might have a little scare now and then during the learning process, but keep in mind your working around 50 to 55,000 PSI, Test loads for most good sporting rifles is 180,000 PSI..BUY you work int he 45 to 50,000 PSI is my advise...

Last edited by Big 5; 05-22-2016 at 04:37 PM.
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  #77  
Old 05-22-2016, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Big 5 View Post
It sounds tough but you will catch on pretty quick, might have a little scare now and then during the learning process, but keep in mind your working around 50 to 55,000 PSI, Test loads for most good sporting rifles is 180,000 PSI..BUY you work int he 45 to 50,000 PSI is my advise...
180,000 PSI in a SAAMI chamber? I don't think so. There are test loads and pill loads. John Garand took the M1 up to either 125,000 or 150,000 PSI out of curiosity...

More importantly watching primers is a quick and easy way to see if you're starting to have pressure problems. I use 210Ms for match ammo, and I know darn well they're soft compared to other primers. But that's when you start watching for cratered primers.

Last edited by rojkoh; 05-22-2016 at 07:53 PM.
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  #78  
Old 05-22-2016, 10:28 PM
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Last but not least is when you shoot your test loads use the same brass over and over and be on the look out for loose primers, that's a tell tale mark of high pressures...Seperated cases are usually old brass that's become brittle,so play that safe, load your rounds about 10 times or so and toss them or anneal after every firing and cases last almost forever, but cheap brass and 10 loads suits me, I toss them and buy new stuff as a rule, but with hard to come by brass annealing is the way to go..

Hope I didn't leave anything out..
A good example of a case head for you. Trick is with this one, nothing wrong with the load, it's over worked brass. In this case fired out of an M60 which had oversized and sloppy chambers and sized for a .308 SAAMI chamber. Only case heads I've had in Decades is with a set of brass that was used in an M60.


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  #79  
Old 05-24-2016, 11:01 AM
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…Test loads for most good sporting rifles is 180,000 PSI...
Not sure where you got that idea. SAAMI lists proof loads in their standard and also describes how to calculated them. (A caution when you read them: they are listed in hundreds of psi. So 62,000 psi, for example, will be listed as 620). For rifle, the proof range, ignoring rounding error in the calculation, runs from about 134% to about 148% of the MAP load (Maximum Average Pressure, the average peak value for 10 shots of freshly loaded ammo; its the number we usually call the SAAMI maximum). For example:

308 Winchester:

MAP: 62,000 psi
Min Proof: 83,000 psi
Max Proof: 92,000 psi

Hatcher was using copper crushers in his day, but back then they believed crushers were giving them real psi. But they fall short on peak value, so Hatcher's numbers would be higher if he used a modern transducer system.

SAAMI also has pressures than allow for sample error (MPLM; Maximum Probable Lot Mean) and for aging of the lot (MPSM; Maximum Probably Sample Mean) and for Maximum Extreme Variation (MEV) within a test.

Incidentally, in the US, unlike Europe, most production guns are never fired with proof loads. It's too costly, so they just do it to some production samples. When they are satisfied by that, they just run with it.
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Last edited by unclenick; 05-24-2016 at 11:05 AM.
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  #80  
Old 07-06-2016, 07:13 AM
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New M29 - True Blue and over pressure - why

To UncleNick and others,

I have a new S&W M29 with some 80 rounds through it. In one range session, using True Blue, at moderate loadings (13.2 gn, 13.7 gn and 14.3 gn) -- max is 15. 3 grains) with Sierra 240 gr jacketed hollow points in new Starline cases that had been resized before loading and using Winc. LP primers I had sticky cases for some of the powder charges.

Others who have commented said sticky cases means over pressure. The low loads (13.2 g) did not stick. The next load, 13.7 and 14.3 grains both were sticky to get out. Had to hit ejector with the ammo box to break the contact and extract cases. After I resized them some 5 cases were very hard to get into a case gauge. I tossed them as they seem over expanded at the base. I ran a couple through the press and they finally came back to spec. I assume this is another sign of over pressure in higher pressure and thus higher powder charges. Do some powder jump that far from the norm in certain guns?

Of the 100 Starline cases from that batch of brass, 24 or so had flattened Winchester LP primers. That is about the number of rounds I loaded with the True Blue at 13.7 or 14.3 gr. I looked at the primers after firing and since I am new to this I thought they were a little flattened, but am aware of different hardness so I did not know what to make of it. After I popped the primers you can see the ring on the top on some 25% of them.

Questions:

1. Has anyone had a similar result with True Blue and .44 mag loads? The Unique loads I shot before the True Blue had no issues; they were subsonic for the most part.

2. Was sticking do to fouling of the cylinder with the Unique loads, and the increased pressure from hotter True Blu loads that embedded in the hotter loaded cases in the grit?

3. How about crimping to hard and increasing pressure? I put a pretty good roll crimp on the cases using a RCBS carbide die. Trying to find a metric for a hard crimp versus a mild crimp. It seems to me it is the width of the band at the case mouth. Mine were about a millimeter in width. I have since back off till it is hardly noticeable as a line, but you can see under magnification the contact of the case with the cannulure.

What I did:
1. The load data came from Sierra's load book.
2. checked the calibration of my scale; its is ok.


What I did not do:
1. shoot factory loads to know if this is a common problem for the gun.
I think the other reloads I made and shot suggests this is not the simple answer as other cases even with True Blue did not stick. Perhaps a combination of physical things near the margin of being out of spec. combine to push the pressure and the thus the cylinder imperfection comes into play

I have several powder choice so don't need to push the True Blue. I am wondering if the issue I had is powder specific or gun specific when the fps gets pushed up. This could be a gritty cylinder or a atypical small bore. Leave True Blue alone or figure out the issue?

Relating similar results and fixes would be helpful.
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