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  #81  
Old 07-22-2016, 05:13 AM
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Here is a very recent article on the subject. I found it extremely helpful.

Primal Rights, Inc :: Understanding Pressure
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  #82  
Old 07-30-2016, 02:19 PM
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You have been given lots to look for, some good and some not necessary..I do as follows:

1. Keep it simple

2. start a couple of grs. below book max. Use several books. and work up from minimum recommendation 1 gr. at a time at least until you get close to max then go 1/2 gr. at a time..

3. Probably the first sign you will see is a flat primer, but that's an iffy sign as primers vary in strength, then comes the cratered primer, and that's the same deal, its iffy, but if it has a black ring around the outside, its time to cut back..

4. While doing #3, watch for an extractor mark on the case head, if you get one your about agrain too hot so cut back 1 gr. and call it good...a stiff bolt lift is another indicator or pressure, a crack as opposed to a boom is an incicator of pressure, sticky extraction is a sign of pressure...this is all stuff to look for and cut back a grain or two on..Do this and you will never injure yourself or the gun.

Go beyond 4 and you may blow a primer, so wear glasses, you can blow off the extractor, and blow a case in half..All of this is bad stuff but seldom results in injury however you don't want it to happen...Most good bolt guns have been tested at 180,000 PSI and that's about double what we need to be working with on max loadings..I use a chronograph and I know where velocity max should be and Im striving for that more or less, I use one case to work up loads and I check for "0" expansion at the base with each fired load, I do not want expansion.. I trim the case and reload it and watch for a loose primer as that also tells me the load needs to be cut back a grain or two..I expect to reload a case at least 10 times and in many cases 15 or more isn't uncommon....

That's how I do it, but I am only looking for where max is with my rifle, I don't load it max, nor hunt with max loads, just near max...a 100 FPS makes no difference to a game animal, so strive to load where the accuracy is best..sometimes that's very close to max is the problem..but good advise is never to go beyond 2 grs over "book max" and approach that very carefully 1/2 gr, at a time ....I say this because many reloading books have that edge written in to protect them from frivolous law suits...follow the rules..never get over confident..

On occasions a load meets all the criteria as a good load, but after two or three firings you get some pressure indications, time to back off a grain if you do...

I have followed this system for near 70 years with only a few minor incidents such as a couple of blown primers, a sticky bolt or two, and one case separation in a 25-35 that had head space..

Last edited by Big 5; 07-30-2016 at 02:27 PM.
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  #83  
Old 07-30-2016, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Big 5 View Post
You have been given lots to look for, some good and some not necessary..I do as follows:

1. Keep it simple

2. start a couple of grs. below book max. Use several books. and work up from minimum recommendation 1 gr. at a time at least until you get close to max then go 1/2 gr. at a time..

3. Probably the first sign you will see is a flat primer, but that's an iffy sign as primers vary in strength, then comes the cratered primer, and that's the same deal, its iffy, but if it has a black ring around the outside, its time to cut back..

4. While doing #3, watch for an extractor mark on the case head, if you get one your about agrain too hot so cut back 1 gr. and call it good...a stiff bolt lift is another indicator or pressure, a crack as opposed to a boom is an incicator of pressure, sticky extraction is a sign of pressure...this is all stuff to look for and cut back a grain or two on..Do this and you will never injure yourself or the gun.

Go beyond 4 and you may blow a primer, so wear glasses, you can blow off the extractor, and blow a case in half..All of this is bad stuff but seldom results in injury however you don't want it to happen...
This is a seriously flawed piece of information. Start two grains under max? You're trying to get people to do something that may well do damage to them and/or their rifles. No sane shooter I know starts 2 grains under max. You start well below that and work up carefully, that's called common sense and doing it smart and safely.

Quote:
Most good bolt guns have been tested at 180,000 PSI and that's about double what we need to be working with on max loadings..
You've posted this figure before, I called you on it and so did Unclenick, it's pure horse ****e. NO SAMMI chambered rifle is tested to 180,000 PSI. John Garand only took the M1 up to 125,000 just to see what it would do, and the Garand is built tough for battle.

Quote:
I have followed this system for near 70 years with only a few minor incidents such as a couple of blown primers, a sticky bolt or two, and one case separation in a 25-35 that had head space..
Frankly with this "advice", I'm surprised you're still around.
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  #84  
Old 08-03-2016, 04:11 PM
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Rocky Raab's advice was appropriate and prudent:
Stop at book-max charge weight or book-max velocity, whichever you reach first.

It's simple, fairly inexpensive (you do need a chrono), effective, and conservative.
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  #85  
Old 01-29-2017, 12:03 PM
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A lot of that is not pressure related per sae, a bulging case is a bad or oversize chamber.Split necks is more likely brass fatigue.Lets uncomplicate this listed subject as much as possible. Some that you mention may be too late, its done happened!!

Pressure signs as they normally appear:

Start your load at a mild load and increase it one grain at a time to start with...Look for flattened primers keeping in mind this by itself means little as some primers are harder than others; but a flat primer with a black ring around its circumfrance is time to cut back a grain; if you hear a crack as opposed to a boom then time to cut back a grain; sticky bolt is time to cut back, a bolt that's stuck is way too much pressure, time to knock it out and cut back at least a couple of grains, If your shooting a lever gun and the lever moves a tad downward at the shot cut back a grain or two...When tweeking your rifle use a chronograph, the cost about $100. if that's too much you need to buy factory ammo and not handload...When you get to a book max or your chronograph tells you your right up there, its either time to quite or increase 1/2 gr. at a time and look for any of the above..Use a powder that at least fills the case to the neck or close and this will not allow for double charging...Use one case to work up your max load, feel the primer with each reloading, if the primer is loose going in your case then you need to be cut back until the primers are seatfirmly as your too hot. I will load and fire my intended max test load at least 10 to 15 times, trimming the case when its too long, if the brass holds up for 10 loads, then call it good...Keep in mind that its a good idea to load a grain below your found max, that's the one if it shoot accurately and the one you should probably go with..Not complicated if you know what causes actual pressure. Any one of these pressure sighs by itself may or may not mean your load is too hot, but coupled with another pressure sighn, you can bet its too warm..I think I covered this, if I left anything out I'll come back and add it on.

Last edited by Big 5; 01-29-2017 at 12:09 PM.
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  #86  
Old 01-29-2017, 01:34 PM
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I understand the desire to simplify, but there is such a thing as taking that too far. I could, for example, simplify driving instructions by saying to always put your foot all the way on the gas or not at all, or all the way on the brake or not at all, or to turn the wheel hard or not at all, but the result would make for terrible, dangerous, but simplified driving. Many things cannot be safely simplified beyond a point.

In your case, you say to change a charge by one grain for this or two grains for that, but not in what cartridges? A 1 grain change in a .300 RUM is well within normal commercial load variation from one cartridge to the next and is going to produce almost no detectable difference. In a .218 Bee, it could raise pressure 30%.

You say all guns are designed for 180,000 psi, but I have no clue where you got that idea, much less the particular number. A reference needs to be cited. I know of a number of handguns that don't approach that strength, so until there is a reference and a limiting description of which guns it applies to, it has to be taken as a gratuitous assertion.

Even if all guns could handle that pressure, few cases are up to it. Indeed, when Hatcher tested the Garand he had to have special cases struck because the production brass kept blowing out and shattering the stock, gas cutting pieces off the bolt, and blowing the magazine and floor plates out of the bottom without damaging the receiver or barrel. Many guns with partially unsupported chamber designs are at the mercy of case head strength to limit serious damage, and are not the strength of their steel. Especially not in a chamber whose lugs have been set back by long use. And you can bet those cases do bulge at the head as the load approaches their burst limit, and it's not because the chamber is too wide, but because brass is flowing into the unsupported area. In a revolver, what causes sticky extraction is the case getting wider than the chamber and not rebounding as far back to shape as the steel can. So, again, you've got a cause of fattening the case that is not due to an over-wide chamber.

You are talking about a chronograph telling you when your pressure matches the book values, but that doesn't work well. First, if you aren't using the same length barrel as the load data was developed in, that book velocity will be wrong even at matching pressure and even if all your other gun dimensions match theirs. And even if you did allow for that, I've seen chronographs err by 200 fps in some light. They can easily mislead you. If your lot of powder is faster than the one used to develop the data, your peak pressure will be higher at the same velocity than was the case in the data tests. These are all reasons chronograph instructions tell you not to use these devices to establish a load limit. There are too many other variables. There are some limited circumstances where they can help you match an existing load that your are firing on the same day and under the same conditions so they measurement errors tend to be the same for both, but otherwise you need more than that to zero in on particular pressure.

Lots of people don't like complexity, and while there is such a thing as a pointlessly complicated explanations of some things, there are also dangerously oversimplified instructions for some things, too. The universe is a mix of both kinds of things, no matter that we would prefer it not be so.

I tried, in the post starting this thread, to make it clear that many items that could be a pressure sign could also indicate something else. It's not always either/or. That's why being aware of there being multiple pressure signs is important, and not just relying on one. Getting one may be something else, but when you get two or three, that becomes less likely. As Denton Bramwell points out in his article on PRE and CHE, he got the exact same amount of brass expansion produced by pressures that are actually different by 2:1 in two different cases from the same lot and with the same load history. So it's also important to recognize that none of the shooter-observable pressure signs on the list represents a calibrated measurement.
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Last edited by unclenick; 06-10-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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  #87  
Old 01-29-2017, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Ed,

I understand the desire to simplify, but there is such a thing as taking that too far. I could, for example, simplify driving instructions by saying to always put your foot all the way on the gas or not at all, or all the way on the brake or not at all, or to turn the wheel hard or not at all, but the result would make for terrible, dangerous, but simplified driving. Many things cannot be safely simplified beyond a point.

In your case, you say to change a charge by one grain for this or two grains for that, but not in what cartridges? A 1 grain change in a .300 RUM is well within normal commercial load variation from one cartridge to the next and is going to produce almost no detectable difference. In a .218 Bee, it could raise pressure 30%.
Well said.
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  #88  
Old 01-30-2017, 11:13 AM
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You want to keep this to conversation or just stick with its my way or the high way..I been reloading for over 60 years, been in the hunting business for over 40 years and build custom rifles..I will converse but I won't be dragged into a **** slinging contest, that's the real horse sh--t...
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  #89  
Old 01-30-2017, 11:51 AM
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Nice attitude, someone has information or references you don't, and you explode....?





The last time a company released case information, was Olin in the 1950's for the 30-06. They used Olin alloy C260. Its spec'd tensile strength was @ 75,000psi. Meaning approaching that tensile strength, you will be able to measure growth. As eluded to with the CHE article referenced, or the SAAMI tests long ago, CUP is very inacurate when used over @ 45,000psi.

You think that staring at an unknown alloy in a primer, or a case that you can accurately tell pressures? That is wrong. I've posted this before, here is some results from our Pressure Trace tests.

Here are ACTUAL pressures fired from MZ5's Hawkeye.


Can you guess which primer was the wild pressure?
*HINT* it's the one on the right.
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkker View Post
Nice attitude, someone has information or references you don't, and you explode....?


The last time a company released case information, was Olin in the 1950's for the 30-06. They used Olin alloy C260. Its spec'd tensile strength was @ 75,000psi. Meaning approaching that tensile strength, you will be able to measure growth. As eluded to with the CHE article referenced, or the SAAMI tests long ago, CUP is very inacurate when used over @ 45,000psi.
Actually you're wrong. Sierra's last manual was tested by Accurate arms and notes the PSI. In that case they were using rifles, Nosler on the other hand uses test fixtures.

There's also the different ways that PSI is tested, that's another issue
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Old 01-30-2017, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Big 5 View Post
You want to keep this to conversation or just stick with its my way or the high way..I been reloading for over 60 years, been in the hunting business for over 40 years and build custom rifles..I will converse but I won't be dragged into a **** slinging contest, that's the real horse sh--t...
Well actually your information is potentially dangerous. You don't note with bolt actions you're using. Some are better than others, than you overlook the fact that a bolt action rifle isn't the other kind of rifle people would use. I don't use them, but AR platforms are very popular and won't hold up with your advise. Also dangerous for semi's based on the M1 platform.

BTW this is an open forum, which means you will get people that will disagree with you which includes me. You're dangerous to any novice that doesn't catch the limitations of your viewpoint.

One more note, don't start with "Build custom rifles", you'd loose on that one with several of us here. Even when it was plain rifles, we used to refurb M1s hundreds at a time with the first batch being over 600.
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  #92  
Old 01-31-2017, 05:11 AM
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Actually you're wrong. Sierra's last manual was tested by Accurate arms and notes the PSI. In that case they were using rifles, Nosler on the other hand uses test fixtures.
I think you misunderstood.
They don't list the alloy cases are made from, or the specs for the alloy.
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  #93  
Old 01-31-2017, 06:04 AM
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A very informative discussion. Don't know which holds water the best, but appreciate the differences of opinions. That's what these forums are all about. Now, as we've said over and over again, please state your case (no pun intended) in a courteous manner and don't go off in a huff if others disagree with your conclusion. The only way the rest of us novices learn is to take in all sides of the issue and try to reason the best presented.

Continue on, guys - maybe we'll all learn something.
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  #94  
Old 01-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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I been reloading for over 60 years, been in the hunting business for over 40 years and build custom rifles..I will converse but I won't be dragged into a **** slinging contest, that's the real horse sh--t...
It's not about slinging mud at anybody, but about keeping information safe, especially for newbies. It's about distinguishing between what is proven and what is anecdotal experience or is hearsay. For example, I've been riding in airplanes for over 60 years and have thousands of hours in them and never been in a crash, much less been hurt in a crash. That doesn't mean airplane crashes never happen or that nobody ever gets hurt in them. It just means 60 years and thousands of hours of experience isn't a big enough statistical sample to discern that that these things can occur.

I know all that time and experience seems like plenty to the guy who has been through it all, but accidents and problems in guns are a matter of statistical distribution of events that include some very low probability and low frequency occurrences. Things that you are unlikely to experience, but that you still don't want to tempt fate with by setting up conditions that allow them to happen.

Secondary Explosion Events are a good example. Dr. Lloyd Brownell measured them occurring in a laboratory environment and wrote a stinging rebuke published in Handloader to a previous Handloader article by an experienced military officer and gun writer who had claimed that S.E.E. was all bunkum and couldn't happen. But Brownell had real data showing up to a 200% pressure excursion, which indicated, based on pressure standard deviation that even higher excursions could occur even more rarely. It's just way out on one end of the bell curve and he estimated you might need to fire many tens of thousands of slow powder reduced loads to see it once. Given the number of reduced loads of 4831 even an experienced shooter might put through a gun, most would never see it in their lifetime. But that doesn't mean you want to declare that it's perfectly safe. It just means your data sample isn't large enough to know.

No doubt, most modern guns can withstand much more than the rated pressure without bursting, but that's not to say the lugs weren't set back or the barrel bulged or the boltface pockmarked by primer leaks before the load was worked up high enough to cause an actual burst. Most folks want to avoid that kind of wear and avoid burning their throats out prematurely, instead preferring to maintain best precision for as for as many rounds as possible.

Board member Humpy reported awhile back that he'd inquired of an engineer at one of the major gun maker's what striker energy they designed for. Humpy has the military type test gauges for indentation of copper slugs that make that determination. But the engineer at the gun company didn't know there was such a thing, nor what his striker energies were. So we have to be careful about making blanket declarations about what something has been designed for. Maybe the designer working on it knew about your expectation, but maybe he'd never heard of it, either.
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Old 01-31-2017, 07:19 PM
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I think you misunderstood.
They don't list the alloy cases are made from, or the specs for the alloy.
Indeed I did, you want to talk to Nick about alloys.

I can tell you why I missed it, your use of Curly Bill threw me and the pictures of the two cases with the primers is misleading.

One is a necked down LC 7.62 case and the other is a commercial case. Big difference in case volume and pressures. *IF* you did it with the same brass, the picture of the primers would have been more informative. yes I know you mix brass, I don't unless there's a point to be made for something I'm working on.
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Old 02-01-2017, 12:23 AM
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Not supposed to be misleading, supposed to illustrate a point.
Pretending unknown alloys in cases and yet again in primers, are somehow calibrated for SAAMI cartridge max pressure, to someone staring at them is ludicrous.
Cases aren't that magic, and the headstamp doesn't change the level of wizardry

Those cases also don't have a big difference in case volume, or pressures(I've got those pressure traces too).
Like UncleNick said about probability, I'm sure there can be the huge difference but I haven't found it. I've pressure tested piles of the "notorious" mil cases and haven't seen it. Maybe my sizing and loading system solves what no one before could do. Maybe the differences aren't as frequent as claimed. I know I've been mixing cases longer than some, and less than others. I've pressure tested less than some, but more than most. I can't find a reason why I shouldn't mix cases.

And you got which to whom backwards. One is LC brass, the other is necked-up commercial. Traces are 308... You know I wouldn't waste my breath on a 243, let alone time tracing it
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Old 02-01-2017, 01:28 AM
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Not supposed to be misleading, supposed to illustrate a point.
Pretending unknown alloys in cases and yet again in primers, are somehow calibrated for SAAMI cartridge max pressure, to someone staring at them is ludicrous.
Cases aren't that magic, and the headstamp doesn't change the level of wizardry

Those cases also don't have a big difference in case volume, or pressures(I've got those pressure traces too).
Like UncleNick said about probability, I'm sure there can be the huge difference but I haven't found it. I've pressure tested piles of the "notorious" mil cases and haven't seen it. Maybe my sizing and loading system solves what no one before could do. Maybe the differences aren't as frequent as claimed. I know I've been mixing cases longer than some, and less than others. I've pressure tested less than some, but more than most. I can't find a reason why I shouldn't mix cases.

And you got which to whom backwards. One is LC brass, the other is necked-up commercial. Traces are 308... You know I wouldn't waste my breath on a 243, let alone time tracing it


I honestly don't have time to split hairs with you on this one right now, I'm on a deadline,

But it's one of the reasons your standard deviations are WAY higher than my loads are, including my loading completely generic ammo without any prep, etc.
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Old 02-01-2017, 10:06 AM
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Not sure where you got that my SD's are so high, Painless' loads run single digit SD's. Unless you thought I was kidding about saying that came from MZ5's rifle, and think I use Deep Curls for my match ammo... Regardless, if you are happy with sorting your brass; you should continue doing it! The Trace isn't to show my loads and SD's, never said it was. That came from another test dealing with bullet construction. The point made with it was that simply staring at brass and primers isn't any form of accurate reporter of pressures.
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Old 02-01-2017, 09:32 PM
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Not sure where you got that my SD's are so high,
From you. not to long ago you weren't even aware of the term: "Standard Deviation" until I noted it for you. You also noted double digit SDs. Mine are never that high.

As far as the mile shot, when you do it at a club that is noted and can verify it, gaming a distance shot is way to easy. I could set up a plate at 500 yards and make it look like I did it with a 1911. However while I have shot 200 yards, I'm not that silly.

Again, I'm on a deadline... say what you will, I don't have time for it.
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Old 02-02-2017, 03:58 AM
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Let's try to get back to a good discussion and put the hurt feelings aside. Tit for tat isn't what we want here.

Here's my take - being a dedicated handloader, the goal is to develop as near as perfect load for a given firearm. Lots of varying projectiles and propellants will be used in doing this, plus jockeying seating depth and propellant weights. All this to provide a particular load that stays within published loading data (Lyman mostly used as they don't have a dog in this fight) and doesn't exhibit hard bolt closing/opening, prmer cup edges still round and no abnormal case appearance. In addition to that which provides the best accuracy, be it a lower velocity or higher. Also, if a hunting firearm the COAL is controlled by acceptable magazine length for proper feeding regardless of seating depth.
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