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  #61  
Old 12-23-2013, 12:47 PM
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  #62  
Old 01-03-2014, 10:30 AM
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Letting brass air cool, dipping brass in water, now its been said by most all, its also been said by the same crowd that dipping in water keeps the heat form annealiing the brass head, and it seems to be a Well so what reaction by those that air cool and at best an oxymoron.

I hope to God I never fire any brass that the head has been softened by annealing..Sorry boys you can't have it both ways..

I dip in water, sure can't hurt, can;t say that for air cool apparantly...another reason never to fire anothers handloads..

Anyone care to submit why air cooling is obviously so acceptable, do you just hold the case in your fingers to be sure its not to hot at the head? if so then are you actually getting the rightcolor for annealing?

I don't anneal my brass except in certain calibers where brass is hard to obtain. Years ago we had to anneal English calibers like the .318, 9.3x62 and others, most all the double rifle calibers..20 cases was like owning gold. Today with standard brass I shoot them about a dozen times, toss them, and buy 100 more at about $34.00 per hundred.. Some brass today is incredibly expansive so I tend to anneal it..I use an electric screwdriver on slow speed with a attachment from some outfit. I have several methods of heat but most use my Burnsamatic type cooking store butane pistol, its handy and it works good..
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  #63  
Old 01-04-2014, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Big 5 View Post
Anyone care to submit why air cooling is obviously so acceptable, do you just hold the case in your fingers to be sure its not to hot at the head? if so then are you actually getting the right color for annealing?

It really depends on the method you are using, but air cooling is "obviously so acceptable" because it has been done, successfully, countless time. If the heat is applied where it should be, and the temperature is controlled by the means listed in this thread, there is no reason to be concerned about the head of the case being annealed and weakening it. I would also point out that most folks not using water are dropping the case into a wet towel and wiping the soot off the brass. Despite what you are intimating, this DOES stop the heating process and ensure the case head does not get annealed.
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  #64  
Old 01-06-2014, 10:50 AM
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Up until now its always been such a simple process, and didn't take a rocket scientist to do it, You have certain steps to follow, they were clear, and you had a couple of options such as natural cooling or dipping, both seem to have worked, but now I have been baffeld by technology and BS... oh well..
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  #65  
Old 01-07-2014, 11:59 AM
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Big 5,

Not overheating the head is a matter of correct timing. Heat takes time to travel through the brass, plus it's losing heat by infrared radiation and to the air moving over the case along the way. So, heating the neck hot enough to anneal, but not taking enough time to let the head heat past 482 is the trick (see the plot I put in post #50).

You got me curious about this. So, I took a piece of well-worn .308 brass and put a thermocouple in the primer pocket and jammed a wood dowel in both to act as a holder and to insulate the thermocouple from air cooling. I used a standard propane Bernzomatic torch and heated the neck and shoulder and continued to heat until the head thermocouple hit 480. This took about 20 seconds. After removing the case from the heat source, it coasted to 505F very briefly (a couple of seconds), and back down again.

The result of the experiment is the neck and shoulder of the case got a dull blue-black, indicating it was overheated (no surprise there) and much darker than military or Lapua annealing stain. The main thing I was glad to see is that the head, even though it just barely passed the minimum slow stress relief temperature, turned a very light blue, same as the light blue color normally at the bottom edge of a correct annealing stain just below the shoulder. This means that if you heat a case in air and the brass color is unchanged at the head, you have not stress-relieved the hardness of the head. It's a simple built-in indicator. You really don't want to see that more than half way down the side of the case.
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  #66  
Old 01-09-2014, 03:32 AM
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After reading through all the thread, which started quite some time ago, I can't see any reference to this most worthwhile article.

The Art and Science of Annealing within AccurateShooter.com

Well worth the read, and dispels a lot of the myth/s.
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  #67  
Old 02-11-2014, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by No1_49er View Post
After reading through all the thread, which started quite some time ago, I can't see any reference to this most worthwhile article.

The Art and Science of Annealing within AccurateShooter.com

Well worth the read, and dispels a lot of the myth/s.
One fella is a writer photographer and the other is selling annealing machines, not a PHD in metalurgy to be found any place here.
Might just as well look at the Anneal Rite video on you tube and buy the $78 item FS
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  #68  
Old 02-12-2014, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Fasteel View Post
One fella is a writer photographer and the other is selling annealing machines, not a PHD in metalurgy to be found any place here.
Might just as well look at the Anneal Rite video on you tube and buy the $78 item FS
So, to be clear, you're saying Mr. Wilson, whose video that is, has a Ph.D. in metallurgy? And that he's not selling annealing machines?
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Last edited by unclenick; 02-12-2014 at 12:35 PM.
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  #69  
Old 02-15-2014, 01:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dentonbramwell View Post
A couple of days ago, I needed to anneal some 7.62x54R brass. On a whim, I grabbed the camera and did a video of it. This link will take you to the video:

How to Anneal Rifle Brass - YouTube

It's pretty basic, but I thought some of you might enjoy seeing it.
Suggestion, it's better to use a torch with the blue portion of the flame adjusted to about 1/2 - 3/4 of an inch. You want the tip of the blue portion of the flame on the shoulder. hold the case head in with your fingers, count "one potato, two potato, rotate the case 180 degrees, go three potato, four potato, and turn the case as you get to 5 and 6. At 6 the case is starting to warm up, drop into a water bucket

When done, put the brass out to dry in a window sill with sun or use a heater, do NOT put the cases in a stove.

This gets you the classic LC annealing markings. I've been doing it this way for 40 years and I do it every 4-5 reloads. You'll find that heavier cases like ball or M118 will go a staggering number of reloads by doing it this way.
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  #70  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:17 AM
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I just ran your vidio. I noticed the case you used still had a primer installed. My playback was not good enough to see is it was a spent primer. I must suppose it was.
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  #71  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:25 AM
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To keep the anieling heat from running to the cartredge head, stand the cartridge on end in a cap with enough, water about up to the one third of the cartradge length and heat carefully with a propane torch, when enough heat has been applied simply tip the case over in the water. this will stop the heat from going too far.
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  #72  
Old 02-15-2014, 10:49 AM
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How about one of these jobbies...

SHOT Show Report: New Bench-Source Case Neck Annealer Daily Bulletin
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  #73  
Old 02-15-2014, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by halkeye View Post
I just ran your vidio. I noticed the case you used still had a primer installed. My playback was not good enough to see is it was a spent primer. I must suppose it was.
Sizing the cases works the brass. In essence annealing relieves the stress. Always anneal after sizing. There's no reason to have a primer spent or especially live one in the case.
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  #74  
Old 02-15-2014, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by halkeye View Post
To keep the anieling heat from running to the cartredge head, stand the cartridge on end in a cap with enough, water about up to the one third of the cartradge length and heat carefully with a propane torch, when enough heat has been applied simply tip the case over in the water. this will stop the heat from going too far.
If you anneal by holding the case head in your fingers, when the case warms up enough so you can feel it or it becomes uncomfortable, that's when you drop it in the water. It works this way and you can an anneal the same as Lake City brass. I've done it this way for 40 years, still works especially well.
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  #75  
Old 02-15-2014, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bushwhckr View Post
Only one problem with it, The tip of the blue portion of the flame should be directly at the shoulder, With this set up it's not. Other that that, timing is right and it's a nice idea, except for the lag in quenching the brass.
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  #76  
Old 02-15-2014, 04:47 PM
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I watched that video and another one by Tom Wilson that sells his setup for $78 and noticed he uses two small tanks about one pound of fuel each. I haven't seen any like that around here. The ones I've seen/used were 14.1 oz and about 10" high and 3" in diameter. His looks to be maybe six inches high and maybe four inches in diameter and the braces he uses wouldn't accommodate the taller tanks I've seen. Where are those available? All we have around here are Lowe's and Home Depot.
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  #77  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Fasteel View Post
One fella is a writer photographer and the other is selling annealing machines, not a PHD in metalurgy to be found any place here.
Might just as well look at the Anneal Rite video on you tube and buy the $78 item FS
I am not biting.
That was a long and comprehensive ad.
The guy made it sound like it was certain death to do it like folks have been for a hundred years.
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  #78  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:58 PM
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Right, billyzz -

And, if folks would bother to check into the posts by others at the beginning of this thread they will find all sorts of procedures for annealing, including the ones they are posting now. Reinventing the wheel, I suppose.
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  #79  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:35 PM
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I have found no drawbacks to the method I use so I will share it here. I noticed that most have dismissed the use of molten lead because of it's tendency to solder itself to the brass, but I have found that if you take the case by the head (not cupping it), and first dip the the neck and shoulder in a cup of mineral oil, then over to a pot of lead maintained just above 700F and count to a full four seconds, lift straight up and then into a pale of water, this brings just the neck and shoulder area evenly to the needed 700F. The mineral oil eliminates the lead from soldering to the brass, and the heat of the lead will burn off the oil from the inside of the case. The reason you don't CUP the case is because of the possibility of the trapped hot air shooting through flashhole. This works, and it works well, but you "must" "slowly" practice this method without distractions. Your working closely with molten lead, it doesn't mix well with water, because you have two choices to follow once you lift the case from the lead, you can either quickly dip the case into the water, pull it out and shake it off and let the residual heat dry the case, or, you can simply drop the case into the water bucket to collect when your done. I chose the second option as I have had bad experiences with lead in the past and I'm never in that big of a hurry when doing this. If you flick the water from the case in the wrong direction and send a water droplet into molten lead, you will be burned, so I would recommended tapping the case down on a thick towel. Good luck and take care if you try this method, it really does work.
As a final late note I thought I'd mention that it is a good idea to either swab the residual soot from the inside of the neck, or send your cases through a cleaning a final time. I prefer to send them through a cleaning myself.

Last edited by vikingsword7; 02-16-2014 at 08:34 PM.
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  #80  
Old 02-17-2014, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by kdub View Post
Right, billyzz -

And, if folks would bother to check into the posts by others at the beginning of this thread they will find all sorts of procedures for annealing, including the ones they are posting now. Reinventing the wheel, I suppose.
Several problems with the way people "learn" these days, don't ask the old timers, don't want to pick up a book, want an easy answer and use Youtube for answers way to much. AS much as I've seen there, most of the info there is NOT good. I can site examples, but the list would be long and way to many people that just don't understand what they're doing or should be doing around firearms. Sorry, had to use the soap box for a moment. Nick (as in UncleNick) is classic when it comes to someone to share/exchange data with.

Worst of all are the idiots from "Russia" who are really down in Georgia and have been raided by the ATF at least once to date. Not a clue and people seem to love them, especially with cyclic weapons that they use to "blow things up". Sigh..... I've worked around class III weapons for years, wouldn't own one, wouldn't want one around the house... I prefer one shot, and shot placement. a fair amount of the forums online are fairly bad. I am shocked at what some people post on the CMP forum.

I still work around class III weapons on occasion. I could take out a Thompson I fixed a year ago Xmas... I may get around to it in time when I have some ammo to test in it. Otherwise more important things to do.
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