451 OR 452 LEAD ? 45 acp - Page 3 - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > Handloading > Handloading Procedures/Practices
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree8Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #41  
Old 12-18-2013, 09:28 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,934

Registered Users do not see the above ad.


Uncle Nick's experience mirrors mine.All of my S&W model 25s, 45 Colt and 45 acp prefer their bullets to be one or two thousandths larger then barrel or what ever is a tight fit in the cylinder throat / mouth.
My one lonely Colt Gold Cup likes .452 or .453 with target loads.

Jim
__________________
Cast bullets are the true and rightous path to shooting bliss
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 01-07-2014, 12:24 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: I live in Eden, Utah
Posts: 21
I don't load .45 cal handgun
, but I do load .357 pistol bullets. I use mostly wheel weight lead but like to run the bullets as fast as possible (not any where near jacketed velicies) I have worried about barrel leading, so I use cas checks on all my lead bullets. I don'rknow if cas checks come in .45 calaber but if they do I reccomend using them

Last edited by halkeye; 01-07-2014 at 12:27 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 01-07-2014, 12:33 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
You appear to be correct about Hornady's intentions. We got off on a tangent about the functional aspect of diameter, which is ultimately no big deal in the .45 Colt chambering. But Hornady does have all their .451's without cannelures and all their jacketed .452 bullets with cannelures.

At Sierra they have both bullets with cannelures and without in their .4515" diameter, and their manual includes a cannelured bullet load for .45 Auto. Nosler's manual doesn't give bullet diameters in their load manual, that I could find, but they did have an introduction to .45 Colt by Dave Scovill, describing a .45 Colt he had with a 0.4515" barrel. The Speer manual is even more interesting, mentioning .45 Colt is produced with barrels ranging from .451" to .452", and offering bullets with cannelures in both of those diameters and with .45 Colt loads listed for both.

It's kind of like the industry just couldn't make up its mind about what it wanted to do.
Nick you want the diameter of cast of jacketed Nosler's? I have jacketed here.
Reply With Quote
 
  #44  
Old 01-08-2014, 12:55 PM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 11,984
Bob,

Sure. I'll put a note about them in my copy of the manual. Thanks!

Looking back at my 1911's, my Goldcup has had a couple of Bar-Sto barrels. One of those was a left-hand twist. I'd read sometime in the mid-80's that reverse twist could help with shooter's elbow. Not long after fitting it up, I showed the gun to the late Russ Carniak at a gunshow and mentioned the reverse twist and the elbow and he said, "made it worse, didn't it". It had. I wound up selling that to a southpaw who was a relative newbie and appreciated it. So much for the left hand twist theory.

The Clark is in the Springfield gun I built to take to Gunsite the first time I went. I got it in trade and got it welded up to fit it the old fashioned way. Worked fine. The only issue I had with that gun isn't the barrel's fault. There had apparently been a little machine chatter in cutting the slide ways, so the left side is a few thousandths wide right at the front of the rails, preventing the tightest slide and frame fit. Slide and frame fit only matter much if you use a frame-mounted sight, which I don't, but it still bugs me. I keep meaning to build up some nickel plating as a filler and lapping it flat, but I've been lazy I guess.
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 01-09-2014, 05:54 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Bob,

Sure. I'll put a note about them in my copy of the manual. Thanks!

Looking back at my 1911's, my Goldcup has had a couple of Bar-Sto barrels. One of those was a left-hand twist. I'd read sometime in the mid-80's that reverse twist could help with shooter's elbow. Not long after fitting it up, I showed the gun to the late Russ Carniak at a gunshow and mentioned the reverse twist and the elbow and he said, "made it worse, didn't it". It had. I wound up selling that to a southpaw who was a relative newbie and appreciated it. So much for the left hand twist theory.

The Clark is in the Springfield gun I built to take to Gunsite the first time I went. I got it in trade and got it welded up to fit it the old fashioned way. Worked fine. The only issue I had with that gun isn't the barrel's fault. There had apparently been a little machine chatter in cutting the slide ways, so the left side is a few thousandths wide right at the front of the rails, preventing the tightest slide and frame fit. Slide and frame fit only matter much if you use a frame-mounted sight, which I don't, but it still bugs me. I keep meaning to build up some nickel plating as a filler and lapping it flat, but I've been lazy I guess.

1) basically .451, although there is some slight variations that are smaller.
2) Good bullet design. In the early 80's Hornady made what they called the "Truncated flat nose" which the Nosler is the closest thing I can find to equal that bullet shape (Hornady no longer makes it). It's a 230 flat nosed ball bullet. It's great when it comes to punching cars especially on a deflection shot. I know I tested it on a 71 Firebird that I found abandoned and reported it to LASD and got permission to use it until it was picked up. A Motor officer was having a problem in Beverly Hills with someone that was stealing 450SLs and he carried a 1911, but couldn't get a stop with ball. I handed him 2 mags and he fired one round and the guy stopped. Don't ask where the bullet ended up. He lived, but it was "painful".

Irv made great products, I bought a lot of his recoil buffers which worked great. Never got into the barrels because they were a royal PITA and better suited for the old IPSC "A" class shooters. I was good and a very good "B" class shooter, but there were people better than me including 4 gunsite instructors that were friends of mine. Mike Horne and I still talk, best course designer I've ever known of and designed and ran the SOF 3 gun matches, which evolved into what goes on now, but ours were a lot better.

I was hated as a range officer, because I was tough about gun safety (you know why). Break the 180... D/Qed.

PS Hornady does make a flat nosed bullet, but it's not the same, we will test it this summer along with the Nosler. I'm curious about trying it in a Thompson I fixed last winter. I don't mind sharing the load, but that would have to be email. PS keep an eye on Email please. I'll send a pic of the bullet type.

Last edited by rojkoh; 01-09-2014 at 07:27 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 01-12-2014, 10:00 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by digisol View Post
I can only speak from personal experiences with the three 45 acp pistols I have owned over the years, accuracy from my Colt Gold Cup Nat Match 45 acp at 50 yards would give sub 2" groups, just tolerable accuracy in my opinion.
I would think that for the most of all 45 acp guns of any brand would be very lucky to get reliable 3" groups at 25 yards let alone sub 2" groups at 50 yards, sure that's not quite the average stock gun, yes the Colt was fitted with the best barrel and bush not to mention a few other internal custom mods, but it was still essentially a stock std Colt pistol to look at.
For the record those loads were shot with if I remember 3.9g Red Dot powder, a Lee TL .452 200g SWC mould and a velocity of around 850 fps +/- a dozen, that gun now long since sold when our government changed our laws to remove all pistol calibres from the shooting public above .38.
But as for loading to allow the bullet touch just the rifling was common back then, drop tested with the barrel out of the gun and allowed to drop into the chamber the distance of the length of a 45 case, no rocket science required.
Sloppiest .45 I ever owned (rattled a lot) was an Essex I built as a back up for competition (after I had a comp gun go down). Shot 3" at 50 yards all day long. 2" or less at 50 is good accuracy.


Try the H&G 68's (Bevel base) with 5.0 to 5.8 of 231. You'll find you'll get better accuracy. This comes from all the battles and wars over loads in the 70's for IPSC shooting before the race guns.

The finest out of the box accuracy I know of: Les Baer 45's.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 01-12-2014, 10:06 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Bob,

Sure. I'll put a note about them in my copy of the manual. Thanks!

Looking back at my 1911's, my Goldcup has had a couple of Bar-Sto barrels. One of those was a left-hand twist. I'd read sometime in the mid-80's that reverse twist could help with shooter's elbow. Not long after fitting it up, I showed the gun to the late Russ Carniak at a gunshow and mentioned the reverse twist and the elbow and he said, "made it worse, didn't it". It had. I wound up selling that to a southpaw who was a relative newbie and appreciated it. So much for the left hand twist theory.

The Clark is in the Springfield gun I built to take to Gunsite the first time I went. I got it in trade and got it welded up to fit it the old fashioned way. Worked fine. The only issue I had with that gun isn't the barrel's fault. There had apparently been a little machine chatter in cutting the slide ways, so the left side is a few thousandths wide right at the front of the rails, preventing the tightest slide and frame fit. Slide and frame fit only matter much if you use a frame-mounted sight, which I don't, but it still bugs me. I keep meaning to build up some nickel plating as a filler and lapping it flat, but I've been lazy I guess.
One serious note on this Nick, 1.260 of the COL or OAL for the .45 acp. BUT.. given the differences you'll find between all the 1911 types and the mags. most people load to 1.255 these days. Worst case scenario is the early Para-Ord double stack mags. Won't reliably feed anything over 1.257. Given the variances in molds regarding overall length of the bullets. best compromise is 1.255.

First time I was to gunsite was with a 70 series Colt. Didn't go in for the Bar Sto Barrels because I got good accuracy out of NM barrels I used with the Mirco Bushing. We learned early on to take out the Colet /finger bushings and replace them. Loved Irv's stuff, but depending on how you did the final reaming of the barrels, they could be finicky. Did't go to learn, went to visit since I came up around 5 gunsite instructors including Mike Harries and Mike Horne.

Only .45 I really wanted and never got to was a Jim Hoag Master grade (missing mine by 2 points in 81). Sadly the trigger on them were horrible. Jim an Armand Swenson built really nice 45's, but Neither of them really did good TJs. We went to Chuck Ries for that one.
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 01-13-2014, 07:34 AM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 11,984
Bob,

Yes, the trigger jobs are where many gunsmiths run afoul of the 1911. I eventually developed my own sear stoning jig that let me adjust not only the usual engagement and rollover angles, but also how far those two angles were off-parallel with the pins. A lot of frames don't seem to have exact parallelism between the sear and hammer pins, so a standard jig gives you an uneven engagement on them, and that seems to make a truly creep-free break almost impossible to do. Get the engagement right and the leaf spring finger tension balance right, and even a 4 lb trigger with 0.025" high hammer hooks will break clean and not feel stiff. I also made and heat treated my own pins to remove slop back then.

I had similar experience with the precision of Colt NM barrels. The bench group below was shot with one that slugged half a thousandth out of round at the muzzle. Didn't seem to bother it any. I got weld built up on the lugs and extension and fit it the old fashioned way (and with a solid bushing, of course—one of the collet fingers had already broken on that Series '70 Goldcup anyway).

The Hornady bullets went out of production, then were reincarnated for a time as the 230 grain FP ENC, which, AFAIK, was the same bullet except with what amounted to an undersized gas check pushed over the exposed portion of the base to keep it in line with rules at indoor ranges that had no exposed lead rules. Since the development of their AMP electroplated gilding metal jackets, the ENC bullets have vanished.

I have some of both 230 grain ENC bullets. I'll put a photo of them below. If you see a difference from the original TC shape in the one on the right, I'd be curious to know about the difference. I don't believe I had any of the originals, since I was focused pretty entirely on conventional pistol in the 70's and 80's. Today all Hornady makes in 230 grains for targets is their HAP design. The ENC bullets are in Hornady #6. My old Hornady book (1973) has only a 185 grain soft point in .451. Nothing else.



__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 01-13-2014, 10:48 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Bob,

Yes, the trigger jobs are where many gunsmiths run afoul of the 1911. I eventually developed my own sear stoning jig that let me adjust not only the usual engagement and rollover angles, but also how far those two angles were off-parallel with the pins. A lot of frames don't seem to have exact parallelism between the sear and hammer pins, so a standard jig gives you an uneven engagement on them, and that seems to make a truly creep-free break almost impossible to do. Get the engagement right and the leaf spring finger tension balance right, and even a 4 lb trigger with 0.025" high hammer hooks will break clean and not feel stiff. I also made and heat treated my own pins to remove slop back then.

I had similar experience with the precision of Colt NM barrels. The bench group below was shot with one that slugged half a thousandth out of round at the muzzle. Didn't seem to bother it any. I got weld built up on the lugs and extension and fit it the old fashioned way (and with a solid bushing, of course—one of the collet fingers had already broken on that Series '70 Goldcup anyway).

The Hornady bullets went out of production, then were reincarnated for a time as the 230 grain FP ENC, which, AFAIK, was the same bullet except with what amounted to an undersized gas check pushed over the exposed portion of the base to keep it in line with rules at indoor ranges that had no exposed lead rules. Since the development of their AMP electroplated gilding metal jackets, the ENC bullets have vanished.

I have some of both 230 grain ENC bullets. I'll put a photo of them below. If you see a difference from the original TC shape in the one on the right, I'd be curious to know about the difference. I don't believe I had any of the originals, since I was focused pretty entirely on conventional pistol in the 70's and 80's. Today all Hornady makes in 230 grains for targets is their HAP design. The ENC bullets are in Hornady #6. My old Hornady book (1973) has only a 185 grain soft point in .451. Nothing else.
Well they seem to think they can remove the lip on the hammer so it's smoother, that's how you get a hammer following.


Know about the Hornady, a friend ordered some on impulse, not to impressed with them other then I think they'll work well in a Thompson. Yes sometime this year we'll try it. The bullet you show is the current one, the old TFN was not really rounded and the flat point was more distinct and the angle was more pronounced. The Nosler isn't quite the same, but it is close enough to try and I will as soon as I set the Star back up. Made a portable reloading bench which I can switch tops on... Have to mount it to the second top I made for it. Based on a Workmate and actually works nicely.


I'll take a pic of the nosler... kinda busy and just got the "Train wreck" out the door. Don't ask how many hours it took to get that beast sorted out. Worst M1A I've ever seen in almost 40 years. It was accurate, but lord was it built badly. First time I've actually had to cut the gas cylinder off.

Last edited by rojkoh; 01-13-2014 at 10:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 01-14-2014, 12:13 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
BTW, year ago Xmas, got handed a pristine almost unused 1911A1 NM. I know the history of it (it's interesting) and I hate the stippling, but can't do anything with it. The rest will be converted the way we used to for the early IPSC stuff most of which you see on modern "tuned" 1911s.

I'm a shooter, not a collector and I've barely started to get it shot in, it's that tight.

I'll get to it, just got the Train wreck out the door. But it works right finally. Worst M1A I've ever seen.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 01-15-2014, 07:25 AM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 11,984
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojkoh View Post
Well they seem to think they can remove the lip on the hammer so it's smoother, that's how you get a hammer following.
Yep! Shortening hammer hooks to remove creep is beginner error 101. You don't want them real long, or you get too much trigger movement for minimum sight picture disturbance, but 0.025" tall is a good number for combat guns that Russ Carniak suggested to me many years ago. I've done 0.030's that still felt good, but have a little more trigger throw than is necessary. Below 0.020" is getting tricky even for a target gun. I think Hallock puts 0.018" as the target minimum, but that assumes you'll remember to hold the trigger back when you drop the slide. I don't feel comfortable going that short.

A good test I use starts by removing the magazine and locking the slide back and then angling the gun skyward so I can balance it just by grasping it between my thumb and index finger positioned over the ends of the mainspring housing pin at the bottom corner of the frame. Then with my other hand, contacting the frame as little as possible, I pinch the slide stop down. If the slide slams home with the muzzle up (worst case for trigger bounce) and without grasping the grip frame to mitigate frame movement, and no magazine follower drag to slow the slide, and with the gun in the lowest weight configuration it ever sees and the hammer still doesn't follow, I know I've got a pretty safe trigger job.
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley

Last edited by unclenick; 01-15-2014 at 07:31 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 01-15-2014, 01:13 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Yep! Shortening hammer hooks to remove creep is beginner error 101. You don't want them real long, or you get too much trigger movement for minimum sight picture disturbance, but 0.025" tall is a good number for combat guns that Russ Carniak suggested to me many years ago. I've done 0.030's that still felt good, but have a little more trigger throw than is necessary. Below 0.020" is getting tricky even for a target gun. I think Hallock puts 0.018" as the target minimum, but that assumes you'll remember to hold the trigger back when you drop the slide. I don't feel comfortable going that short.

A good test I use starts by removing the magazine and locking the slide back and then angling the gun skyward so I can balance it just by grasping it between my thumb and index finger positioned over the ends of the mainspring housing pin at the bottom corner of the frame. Then with my other hand, contacting the frame as little as possible, I pinch the slide stop down. If the slide slams home with the muzzle up (worst case for trigger bounce) and without grasping the grip frame to mitigate frame movement, and no magazine follower drag to slow the slide, and with the gun in the lowest weight configuration it ever sees and the hammer still doesn't follow, I know I've got a pretty safe trigger job.
Simple issue for hammer following... when you are about to let the slide go, squeeze the trigger to disconnect the sear. *IF* the hammer still follows, you have a problem.

Funny back in the day the two best 45 smiths on the west coast were Jim Hoag and Swenson. Only problem is they both were really bad about trigger jobs. Hoag's used to catch the half cock notch. It's why I always went to Chuck Ries, his 45's weren't quite as pretty, but they were good and had exceptional triggers. Don't ask what the trigger pull on my old IPSC match guns where, on my cowboy gun (A 3 screw blackhawk), the trigger was 1lb. Loved to let people try it under supervision, typically they brought the pistol up to cock it and always tended to touch it off right after. My dentist borrowed the Blackhawk and it took me a year to get it back!

PS the picture I sent with Mike Horne was a Ries 45. Note the things on the front of the frame, those were "ears" put on to get the lock up more accurate. Really didn't help that much. We all used the Micro solid bushing.. really nice but Micro isn't in business anymore.

PS in those days, Bill Wilson used to come out to shoot, didn't care for him. Les Baer I do respect to this days and one of these days I will order a Baer 1911. I've shot a lot of his weapons. I do like them.

Most fun of all, was shooting Mickey Fowler's .38 supers. Loved them, but won't own a race gun... they're not reliable.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 02-15-2014, 02:06 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Phil,

Glad to help.

If headspace is determined by the bullet per the second drawing, case length becomes a moot factor in that headspacing, as the bullet stops the case mouth from contacting the end of the chamber. If you headspace on the the case mouth (second barrel from left in my illustration) then it is a factor, and exact position off the case in the chamber on firing will vary with case length. That won't help either ignition or bullet alignment consistency.

However, for crimp, having equal length cases does matter to crimp consistency and will also affect start pressure. In that case the standard approach is to use a taper crimp, and just make sure the finish rounded has an OD of 0.467"-0.473" right at the mouth.

Note that different brands and lot numbers of cases can have different brass thickness at the mouth, so don't be surprised if the crimp die setting that works with cases from one source has to be changed for those from another. R-P (Remington-Peters) cases are notoriously thin, for example, while some of the brass from the former Eastern Block countries can be quite thick. The thin brass can require a lower setting with a minimum OD result to work at all, while the thick stuff requires you set the crimp die for maximum mouth OD or they squeeze the bullet hard enough to start affecting its diameter. You won't care about that inconsistency for plinking and practical shooting practice, for which mixed range brass is usually good enough, but for precision on 50 yard slow fire targets, it's not good enough.

Winchester, Starline, and Top Brass are all similar and have a good compromise thickness in the middle of the range. They all last through more reloadings without splitting than most others, and Starline and Top Brass are the most dimensionally consistent I've ever measured by nearly a factor of two (scroll down at those linked pages until you get to .45 Auto or ACP).

As board member William Iorg reminded me awhile back, the conventional pistol shots from fifty years ago would not only headspace on the bullet, but would roll crimp the rounds. That was possible because the case mouth wasn't needed for headspacing with the bullet doing it. The roll crimp makes start pressure even higher, and that helps with consistency, too, but it does wear cases out faster, eventually causing splits at the mouths. Something to play with if you have an Auto Rim crimp die or a very old .45 ACP die set from before taper crimps were standard.

One last issue. .45 ACP brass runs at low pressure. As a result, the case doesn't expand into the chamber hard enough to stick to it, as high power rifle cartridges do, so the cases aren't stretched back by pressure. Instead, the whole case back up and the thinner brass fattens against the chamber, making it shorter. When you resize the brass it doesn't completely returns to length. I kept track of 1000 cases one time through 50 reloadings at light target load levels. A third were still left at the end of the experiment, and they were all 0.025" shorter than when they were new. So, they lost about half a thousandth with each load cycle. This means, for the crimping (taper in their case, for long case life) to be consistent, the cases had to be kept together as a group and not mixed with others that had been reloaded different numbers of times. Not only was the brand important to a consistent crimp, but so was the load history. If I had not been headspacing on the bullet, these cases would all have been headspacing on the extractor hook by the end of their life, being then too short to headspace on the case mouth.

You're right about the pressure. When I first started using a Star in the mid 70's, I screwed up and had two doubles. Scared the heck out of me (and cost me a set of grips and a mag per)... but 1911 was fine. I have seen one triple charge... which was REAL interesting. But the 1911 was rebuilt.

Of all the 100s of thousands of rounds I've shot, never worried about trimming cases, only watching for case splitting.... Best place in the past 10 years for the classic H&G style SWC cast bullet is bulletworks.com. slightly more expensive then "cheap" but really worth the money. typical cast (452) and hardness is good. Still working on breaking in that 1911A1 NM I got last year.

I'll be setting the star back up shortly. We are doing to do a classic Gunsite thing this summer and I intend to pucker some folks!

I'll keep you posted, please read Email... Let me know if you want me to take pics. It's going to be good fun, Teach some "shooters" how we used to do it... they'll love it in time.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 02-15-2014, 09:34 AM
digisol's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Queensland Australia
Posts: 135
I can't speak for others but I set my 45acp rounds to headspace on a very small amount of the lead bullet, only enough to seal the chamber, should that round not be fired for whatever reason it would when re-chambered headspace on the front of the case as it should do normally.
No crimp but a very small taper crimp if any to straighten the case from its belling process when loaded.
My Gold Cup shot very well and the seating of any bullet out enough to touch the rifling was normal practice, but different barrel throats makes this a gun by gun basis, on mine it worked well, 2" at 50 yards was common with both 200g swc and red dot target loads.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 03-13-2014, 12:02 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Western States
Posts: 123
You need to slug your barrel to determine the 'correct' dia for your lead bullets. My 45 barrels are particularly tight (.449 & .450) and I size my bullets .451 with excellent results as far as accuracy is
concerned and minimal to no leading.

If you purchase 45 lead bullets they are typically sized to .452, which if loaded as they came, I'll get
some leading where the rifling starts and in some situations leading towards the muzzle. As far as
accuracy is concerned it does fall-off a little. However, most issues regarding accuracy tend to be
due to shooter error instead of bullets not sized properly.

If it makes you feel better you can take your commercially sized .452 bullets and run them thru
a .450 or .451 sizer which depending on the metal mix used, comes out between .451 and .4515.
But with reduced leading.

All of the above only applies to pistols shooting lead. Rifles are totally different. With rifles I obtain
my best accuracy by sizing my bullets the bore diameter or .001 over. That said, I have a friend
who had cast some bullets for his Mosin-Nagant chambered 7,62x57R, which is infamous for it's
oversized barrels (.311 instead of .308). When shooting his '03 (30-06) he tried some of those
bullets he made for the Russian and was hitting bowling pins at 300 yds, open sights! The point
is you just have to try and see what works best for your firearms. I long ago discarded Lyman's
recommendation of .002 over the bore diameter.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-16-2014, 07:39 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Phil,

Glad to help.

If headspace is determined by the bullet per the second drawing, case length becomes a moot factor in that headspacing, as the bullet stops the case mouth from contacting the end of the chamber. If you headspace on the the case mouth (second barrel from left in my illustration) then it is a factor, and exact position off the case in the chamber on firing will vary with case length. That won't help either ignition or bullet alignment consistency.

However, for crimp, having equal length cases does matter to crimp consistency and will also affect start pressure. In that case the standard approach is to use a taper crimp, and just make sure the finish rounded has an OD of 0.467"-0.473" right at the mouth.

Note that different brands and lot numbers of cases can have different brass thickness at the mouth, so don't be surprised if the crimp die setting that works with cases from one source has to be changed for those from another. R-P (Remington-Peters) cases are notoriously thin, for example, while some of the brass from the former Eastern Block countries can be quite thick. The thin brass can require a lower setting with a minimum OD result to work at all, while the thick stuff requires you set the crimp die for maximum mouth OD or they squeeze the bullet hard enough to start affecting its diameter. You won't care about that inconsistency for plinking and practical shooting practice, for which mixed range brass is usually good enough, but for precision on 50 yard slow fire targets, it's not good enough.

Winchester, Starline, and Top Brass are all similar and have a good compromise thickness in the middle of the range. They all last through more reloadings without splitting than most others, and Starline and Top Brass are the most dimensionally consistent I've ever measured by nearly a factor of two (scroll down at those linked pages until you get to .45 Auto or ACP).

As board member William Iorg reminded me awhile back, the conventional pistol shots from fifty years ago would not only headspace on the bullet, but would roll crimp the rounds. That was possible because the case mouth wasn't needed for headspacing with the bullet doing it. The roll crimp makes start pressure even higher, and that helps with consistency, too, but it does wear cases out faster, eventually causing splits at the mouths. Something to play with if you have an Auto Rim crimp die or a very old .45 ACP die set from before taper crimps were standard.

One last issue. .45 ACP brass runs at low pressure. As a result, the case doesn't expand into the chamber hard enough to stick to it, as high power rifle cartridges do, so the cases aren't stretched back by pressure. Instead, the whole case back up and the thinner brass fattens against the chamber, making it shorter. When you resize the brass it doesn't completely returns to length. I kept track of 1000 cases one time through 50 reloadings at light target load levels. A third were still left at the end of the experiment, and they were all 0.025" shorter than when they were new. So, they lost about half a thousandth with each load cycle. This means, for the crimping (taper in their case, for long case life) to be consistent, the cases had to be kept together as a group and not mixed with others that had been reloaded different numbers of times. Not only was the brand important to a consistent crimp, but so was the load history. If I had not been headspacing on the bullet, these cases would all have been headspacing on the extractor hook by the end of their life, being then too short to headspace on the case mouth.

One note about pressures in a .45acp (1911). When I was first learning how to load on a Star, I pulled a typical newbie stunt and ended up firing 2 doubles. Cost me a pair of grips, a magazine each time and both extracted properly. Don't ask the load.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-16-2014, 07:44 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by travelr47 View Post
You need to slug your barrel to determine the 'correct' dia for your lead bullets. My 45 barrels are particularly tight (.449 & .450) and I size my bullets .451 with excellent results as far as accuracy is
concerned and minimal to no leading.

If you purchase 45 lead bullets they are typically sized to .452, which if loaded as they came, I'll get
some leading where the rifling starts and in some situations leading towards the muzzle. As far as
accuracy is concerned it does fall-off a little. However, most issues regarding accuracy tend to be
due to shooter error instead of bullets not sized properly.

If it makes you feel better you can take your commercially sized .452 bullets and run them thru
a .450 or .451 sizer which depending on the metal mix used, comes out between .451 and .4515.
But with reduced leading.

All of the above only applies to pistols shooting lead. Rifles are totally different. With rifles I obtain
my best accuracy by sizing my bullets the bore diameter or .001 over. That said, I have a friend
who had cast some bullets for his Mosin-Nagant chambered 7,62x57R, which is infamous for it's
oversized barrels (.311 instead of .308). When shooting his '03 (30-06) he tried some of those
bullets he made for the Russian and was hitting bowling pins at 300 yds, open sights! The point
is you just have to try and see what works best for your firearms. I long ago discarded Lyman's
recommendation of .002 over the bore diameter.

Most common 1911 barrels work fine with cast bullets at .452. They always have. Depending on the cast bullets you're using, this really should be an issue and we were doing it in the days of the Bar Sto barrels which were really TIGHT!

Agree about slugging the bores, but even .002ths shouldn't be an issue. My old rattle trap bush pistol could still shoot 3" at 50 yards prone.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 08-24-2015, 10:46 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Northern Rockies
Posts: 431
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post

Have you read the LASC page on firelapping? It's actually several articles. The one that caught my eye is Ken Mollohan's (2nd one down). He just basically fire polishes rather than lapping and claims that in a smooth bore the constriction doesn't cause the problems usually attributed to it. That surprised me. But I'm guessing he also has just the right alloy to upset again back to bore diameter after passing through, and does so at his particular pressure level.

Sorry to dredge up an old thread,...but do you happen to have a current link to Ken Mollohans piece on barrel lapping? I had read it and bookmarked it, but the link is dead. I've been searching for it and have only found references to it, no working link.

Thanks if you have anything!
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 08-29-2015, 07:03 AM
unclenick's Avatar
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hilliard, Ohio
Posts: 11,984
Unfortunately, the LASC site stopped hosting Joe Brennan's book that the article was part of. They took it down. No idea why.
__________________
Nick
__________________________
Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member
"First contemplation of the problems of Interior Ballistics gives the impression that they should yield rather easily to relatively simple methods of analysis. Further study shows the subject to be of almost unbelievable complexity." Homer Powley
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 08-29-2015, 11:59 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: BF Egypt
Posts: 4,919
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
Unfortunately, the LASC site stopped hosting Joe Brennan's book that the article was part of. They took it down. No idea why.
Nice, came on last night to answer a question and today to see this one, got the virus warnings again.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
9mm and lead bullets? Mike89 Handloading Procedures/Practices 5 02-16-2010 12:31 PM
Lead Reclamation cvc944 Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 2 01-27-2010 06:12 AM
Lead Hammer? gmd3006 Bullet Casting 7 10-15-2009 07:58 PM
Lead bullets in hammer forged barrels COHIBA Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 1 05-19-2009 10:50 AM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:44 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1