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  #1  
Old 08-07-2011, 04:58 PM
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451 OR 452 LEAD ? 45 acp


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Hello all , New to the thread here and i do have some question that im hoping i can get hlp with , I have been loading for sometime now and target shooting with:
Rainer 230 rn
4.4 titegroup
CCI primer

Now my rounds have very accurate with this load but its time to down size the cost a little on these fmj rounds as 4-5 hundred rounds a week is starting to burn some funds up so im going to start with lead SWC 200 G.
My research has landed on this topic about leading in the barrel , the 451 or 452 diam choice

Can some one enplane to me how do i choose ?
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:01 PM
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Welcome to the forum. Rules are to join in and have fun and play nicely with the rest of us kids.

With lead bullets, to stop leading it is critical that the bullet fully obturate (seal off) the bore. Barrels have tolerances. My first Goldcup's NM barrel was .4515", for example, and not the exact .451 nominal value. As a result, I would not get complete obturation with a .451" bullet unless the pressure were high enough to upset the bullet into the bore. Since I was shooting light target loads with a hardcast bullet I couldn't count on that, so .452" was a no-brainer.

That said, there seems to be a phenomenon, not fully explained to my satisfaction, in which many guns seem to like the cast lead to be squeezed down a bit by the bore. If you try slugging a bore with pure lead and then with a harder alloy, you feel the difference immediately. The soft lead pushes through and becomes loose after passing through a constriction of any kind. A hard alloy is springy and keeps pressed hard against the bore. My suspicion is that this improves the seal and helps prevent both gas cutting and distortion, especially where there are minor bore irregularities. But that may not be all there is to it.

More recently, I've been shooting Lee tumble-lube bullets through a Clark barrel I have that is just about exactly .4510" in the grooves, so just about exactly nominal. The tumble lube bullets are about .453" out of my molds, and they shoot even better than .452's. So a bit of squeeze with the cast bullets is desirable.

A 200 grain cast SWC over 4.8 grains of Hodgdon Universal will function all my hardball guns just fine. I've not tried it in anything shorter than a Commander, though, and still shorter pistols typically have stiffer springs. Nonetheless, it's a good place to start. 4.5 grains of Bullseye would be about the same.
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Last edited by unclenick; 03-28-2013 at 04:04 AM. Reason: typo fix
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:39 PM
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Philt, the answer is actually right in front of you. If the bullets you shoot now shoot well, measure the diameter of those bullets, and use that diameter.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2011, 07:59 PM
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Thx for the reply unclenick , so i would need to measure my barrel lans to determine what diameter im gong to start with correct ?

So you recommend that if i mic out at .4526" i might wanna start with the .453 the get the seal you are referring too right ?

and if i mic out less than the .451 try the 451- hope im understanding this correctly

so IF you have issues leading your barrel you go up in size to resolve

Thx again

p.s. I WAS LOOKING AT OREGON TRAIL laser cut SWC BB on cabelas , what does BB stand for
and do you crimp

Last edited by Philt1; 08-07-2011 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:06 PM
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Hello jack , Now there's a thought , lol (Will do)

Thx you
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  #6  
Old 08-08-2011, 03:13 AM
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Suggest you start with .452" bullets. They will be slightly large for most bores. If you experience leading, you can go larger with your next order. Oregon Trail 200 grain .45 ACP SWC bullets are a very popular choice and less expensive than plated/jacketed bullets. You might also price check buying directly from Oregon Trail as there could be a saving over buying from a shooter supply house.

BB refers to bevelled base. The circumference of the bullet's base has a bevel to facilitate seating in casemouths. You do need to crimp but your seater die will come with the appropriate crimp ring cut into the die.
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Old 08-08-2011, 04:39 AM
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I'm an old Bullseye shooter (The shooting disipline). Over the years I found 4.5 grains of Bullseye or Win 231 with a 200 to 210 grain wheel weight bullet did every thing I need. I've used this load for so long that I set the powder measure 20 some odd years ago, adjusted the seating stem, taper crimp, etc, and have not changed it.
I've used .451, .452, .453 diameter bullets. The .453 were swaged SWCs, I was experimenting with Corbins equipment.
Can't say I noticed difference, other then point of impact. The larger diameter bullets burned cleaner then the lesser diameter, my guess is higher pressure, more commplete burn.

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Old 08-08-2011, 05:58 AM
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Yes. Good point. Higher start pressure should have been on my list with the bore seal. Many years ago top shots reported military match ammunition shooting better for them than civilian factory match ammunition. It wasn't that any of the components were made any better or that the powder was metered any more accurately. Indeed, the opposite was not uncommonly true. It turned out the pitch seal the military uses helps glue the bullets in hard enough to increase start pressure, so burn is cleaner and MV consistency higher. So that's another plus for slightly oversize bullets. Get them too wide, though, and the accuracy falls back apart from asymmetric swaging into the bore.


PhilT1,

A couple of points: You want to distinguish between plated bullets and jacketed bullets. Plated bullets, like Berry's, are softer than jacketed bullets. The pure copper plating is not as hard as the gilding metal alloy used to form jackets, which typically has 5% zinc, so it's technically a mild brass (yellow cartridge case brass is 30% zinc by comparison). Typically you don't want to push plated bullets past the middle of the load range given for jacketed bullets because they distort more easily and foul barrels more easily. Berry's own FAQ describes the differences, too, but fails to mention the alloy difference. Another Berry FAQ has the low-to-middle jacketed bullet load range recommendation.

The distortion issue isn't just about tolerating pressure. Bullets get banged up during loading and firing, and lead bullets, if fired when the cartridge is slightly tipped in the chamber, tend to be pushed into the bore at that angle, which makes their mass slightly eccentric, and the resulting wobble in flight limits their accuracy when that happens.

Below are two groups from the same Goldcup of mine, to illustrate accuracy potential in the same gun. The load on the left uses 4.2 grains of Bullseye under a Hornady 200 gr JSWC. That load may not function all compact 1911's, but generally is fine with full size ones. You can see the ultimate accuracy is high, so you get what you pay for there. The one on the right is 200 grain hardcast LSWC over 3.8 grains of Bullseye. The light charge was for Timed and Rapid fire recoil recovery and it probably would have been tighter with a little more powder.

Nonetheless, at under an inch, the cast bullet load could still stay in the X-ring of a Timed/Rapid Fire 25 yd target, and would, if the shooter could, keep scratching the X-ring of a Slow Fire target. Those were commercial cast bullets of forgotten origin, so I can't vouch for their perfection. They didn't shoot quite as well as my own cast tumble lube bullets do, but those didn't exist when I fired these test targets. That barrel, BTW, was slightly oval, being .4511" on one axis and 0.4515" on the other at the muzzle. Still shot well.



The distortion issue has to do with the fact, despite John Browning's best intentions, that many .45 ACP chambers are long enough that the cartridge stops against the extractor hook before the case mouth finds the end of the chamber. In other words, the gun actually headspaces on the extractor hook. One experienced gunsmith told me he estimated 70% of the .45's he saw were like that (this was over 25 years ago, but I don't know that it has changed). When the gun fires it pivots the cartridge on the extractor hook so it is tilted to the extractor side of the chamber. The bullet is fired into the throat of the bore at that slight angle. Jacketed bullets are tough enough to straighten themselves out in that circumstance, but lead is not and can shave against the chamber mouth. That contributes to mass asymmetry and to leading.

You can do something about it. You can seat the bullets out to headspace by bullet contact with the rifling throat before the cartridge has either the case mouth at the end of the chamber or gets the case extractor groove to the extractor hook. You can use your barrel like a gauge to find the seating die setting that creates this condition. It is the third from the left, below. The only caution is that in some guns some bullet shapes will exceed 1.275" COL before you get to that state and may cease to fit in your magazines. That becomes the limiting factor. The method will result in more accuracy and reduced leading when you can do it.

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451 OR 452 LEAD ? 45 acp-goldcup-only.gif   451 OR 452 LEAD ? 45 acp-.45-seating-possibilities-x800.jpg  
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Last edited by unclenick; 08-08-2011 at 06:54 AM. Reason: typo fix
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Old 08-08-2011, 06:49 AM
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Nick, we gotta put all this in a Sticky... great stuff.
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  #10  
Old 08-08-2011, 06:57 AM
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OK. Thanks. I stuck it.
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Old 08-08-2011, 11:59 AM
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WOW , Great information to see .Ok i have the diam. size down now and what to look for , Now I hope that i will get by with no problems with the headspace as i was using the same technique with barrel for current loads .

unclenick what about brass and crimping as i have various lengths of brass from .888 to .892 ect. but none exceeding the max .898 (of course ) now im taking from the post that headspace may be a factor so therefore my brass length may come into play as far as crimp on the cannelure . correct ?

Im loading on a Dillon 550 , anything to watch for on a progressive press ?

Do i need to trim brass all to same length ?
and how much of a crimp might i apply ?


You guys have REALLY given me the knowledge to start this kind of loading. just another feather in my hat ")
Thx you
unclenick , just outstanding , Thanks for your time and experience
P.S. great shooting

Last edited by Philt1; 08-09-2011 at 07:26 AM.
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  #12  
Old 08-10-2011, 05:28 AM
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Phil,

Glad to help.

If headspace is determined by the bullet per the second drawing, case length becomes a moot factor in that headspacing, as the bullet stops the case mouth from contacting the end of the chamber. If you headspace on the the case mouth (second barrel from left in my illustration) then it is a factor, and exact position off the case in the chamber on firing will vary with case length. That won't help either ignition or bullet alignment consistency.

However, for crimp, having equal length cases does matter to crimp consistency and will also affect start pressure. In that case the standard approach is to use a taper crimp, and just make sure the finish rounded has an OD of 0.467"-0.473" right at the mouth.

Note that different brands and lot numbers of cases can have different brass thickness at the mouth, so don't be surprised if the crimp die setting that works with cases from one source has to be changed for those from another. R-P (Remington-Peters) cases are notoriously thin, for example, while some of the brass from the former Eastern Block countries can be quite thick. The thin brass can require a lower setting with a minimum OD result to work at all, while the thick stuff requires you set the crimp die for maximum mouth OD or they squeeze the bullet hard enough to start affecting its diameter. You won't care about that inconsistency for plinking and practical shooting practice, for which mixed range brass is usually good enough, but for precision on 50 yard slow fire targets, it's not good enough.

Winchester, Starline, and Top Brass are all similar and have a good compromise thickness in the middle of the range. They all last through more reloadings without splitting than most others, and Starline and Top Brass are the most dimensionally consistent I've ever measured by nearly a factor of two (scroll down at those linked pages until you get to .45 Auto or ACP).

As board member William Iorg reminded me awhile back, the conventional pistol shots from fifty years ago would not only headspace on the bullet, but would roll crimp the rounds. That was possible because the case mouth wasn't needed for headspacing with the bullet doing it. The roll crimp makes start pressure even higher, and that helps with consistency, too, but it does wear cases out faster, eventually causing splits at the mouths. Something to play with if you have an Auto Rim crimp die or a very old .45 ACP die set from before taper crimps were standard.

One last issue. .45 ACP brass runs at low pressure. As a result, the case doesn't expand into the chamber hard enough to stick to it, as high power rifle cartridges do, so the cases aren't stretched back by pressure. Instead, the whole case back up and the thinner brass fattens against the chamber, making it shorter. When you resize the brass it doesn't completely returns to length. I kept track of 1000 cases one time through 50 reloadings at light target load levels. A third were still left at the end of the experiment, and they were all 0.025" shorter than when they were new. So, they lost about half a thousandth with each load cycle. This means, for the crimping (taper in their case, for long case life) to be consistent, the cases had to be kept together as a group and not mixed with others that had been reloaded different numbers of times. Not only was the brand important to a consistent crimp, but so was the load history. If I had not been headspacing on the bullet, these cases would all have been headspacing on the extractor hook by the end of their life, being then too short to headspace on the case mouth.
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Old 08-10-2011, 06:26 AM
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Unclenick

I started out loading for revolvers, so i was more concerned bullet jump, filling the cyclinder's forcing cone. When I took up loading for one of these new fangled semi autos, I discovered a whole new world. So I read everything I could on the subject.
Magazines were the issue de jure, you had Colt and then much further down the list of reliablity, all the rest. There were a few drop in barrels of much quality and a few master gun smiths who would with enough time and money bless your handgun.
My first effort was fitting the bullet loaded round to the magazine, then checking to see if it functioned, Colt Gold Cup chambers were strict and the feed ramp needed a kiss or two with emory cloth and crocus cloth. Even did a bit of polishing on the frame for reliability.
During all this beating of tomtoms, wearing feathers and dancing I discovered my Colt loved for the bullet shoulder to be a gnat's eye lash too long, so that the shoulder was engaging the barrel's forcing cone.
With this I eliminated case length as an issue as long as it functioned thru the mag, and chambered..

Here's a esoteric 1911 question. Do you remember the Centaur barrel system?

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Old 08-10-2011, 09:56 AM
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Sounds like you're describing what I call headspacing on the bullet. After I "discovered" it back in the late 70's, I started to notice it had already been "discovered" by others, starting in the late 40's. It is the way to go.

My Goldcup barrel was done old school with weld built-up link lugs and extension and some careful scraping and filing and stoning. With full engagement I had to file the back edges of the barrel lugs forward to keep them from smacking the recoil face at the back of the recoil spring tunnel before the barrel was all the way down. That required re-throating the chamber and moving the bottom edge forward. I widened and smoothed the feed ramp a little at the same time. I can load magazines with empty cases and they'll feed every time you rack the slide.

IIRC, Centaur used different diameter roller sleeves slipped on the slide stop's assembly pin until you got good link lug lockup, then you picked a link to fit. Nice idea in that eliminates pin and lug surface wear and cuts friction down a little when going into battery. They also had a compensator system of some kind, but I don't recall details as I was only interested in Bullseye guns back then. Seems to me they disappeared around the time I became aware of them, circa 1980 or so.
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:13 AM
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Ok , well im going to start sorting my cases out and see how much of a certain head stamp i have as i have nothing but mixed brass . I just might buy 1k of one head stamp brand and work off that .( consistency consistency consistency )

As far as my dies go i only have a taper crimp die , I will need to roll crimp this bullet in cannelure or can taper crimp be used .

Thx guys .
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Old 08-12-2011, 06:20 AM
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Taper is fine for any self-loader. If you have a cannelure (not a crimp groove) you have a jacketed bullet, and jacketed bullets have enough friction with the case brass that they don't really need crimping at all in .45 Auto. You do, however, want to get all traces of flare off the case mouth or you will have feeding problems. The case mouth diameter with a bullet under it should be 0.467"-0.473" diameter for case mouth headspacing (which is fine with jacketed bullets). Adjust your taper crimp die until the diameter falls inside that range.

If you were loading .45 Auto or .45 Auto Rim for a revolver, then you would need to worry about crimping into the cannelure, and it would be a roll crimp. Revolvers have the unique problem that when they recoil, instead of a magazine bumping the bullet noses, the cylinder recoils against the rim (or the extractor groove with half moon clips), which tends to jerk the cases back hard enough to pull them off the bullets, kind of like an inertial bullet puller. This bullet back-out can jam a cylinder and stop it from rotating, so it becomes extra important to get a tight grip on the bullets.
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Old 08-14-2011, 04:17 AM
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Wel looks like im on my way into this type of loading , i just ordered 1k of 200g SWC
i'll try and work up a good load and keep posted .

Agin Thanks guys
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:36 AM
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45 acp jacketed hollow point

Sorry to ask this again, but I'm still confused.

What bullet is used in a factory 45acp jhp round? .451 or ,452

Seems most bullets for sale are .451. There are few selections in .452

Will either work in a 45 acp pistol?

Thanks again
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:06 PM
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I suspect the bullet diameter is up to each individual manufacturer.
You can use either diameter.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:15 AM
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Warren57,

Typically jacketed bullets are 0.451" while lead bullets (cast or swaged or plated) are 0.452". The actual SAAMI spec for .45 Auto is taken out one more decimal place and is 0.4520" - 0.0030" for jacketed bullets and 0.4530" -0.0030 for lead bullets. So any jacketed bullet from 0.4490" to 0.4520" is inside the technical specification limits, and any lead bullet from 0.4500" to 0.4530" is within those limits.

The bore groove diameter specification is .450"+0.002". So it is perfectly safe, within the pressure limits of the gun and under the specification, to squeeze even a jacketed bullet down 0.0020" (0.450" minimum bore with 0.4520" maximum jacketed bullet). It can squeeze a softer lead bullet down 0.0030" under the specification. In practice, they can squeeze even more, but this is what the specification calls out.

So, why are .451" and .452" the common jacketed and lead specifications, respectively? Most barrel manufacturing is tighter than it was when the cartridge was originally designed. Today you see groove diameters of 0.451" held pretty closely. I have one that is 0.4510" across one diameter and 0.4515" across the opposite diameter. The custom barrels I have are better. But to be within half a thousandth for commercial barrels isn't uncommon now.

A bullet that fits the bore perfectly and isn't squeezed too much is more accurate than one that is loose or one that is squeezed down a lot. So most bullet makers feel that 0.4510" is a good number for jacketed bullet accuracy and stay with that. Sierra uses 0.4515" to be sure of a tight fit, feeling that a half thousandth squeeze is less detrimental to accuracy than a half thousandth gap, and they are accuracy freaks. The reasoning is that the squeeze tends to be fairly equal, but as soon as there's a gap, the bullet contact tends to favor one side of the bore, creating uneven rifling engraving depth that results an mass asymmetry that causes the bullet to spin eccentrically in flight.

Lead bullets have a different problem. What is critical with lead bullets, is that they not be too small. Any undersized bullet is an opportunity for gases to bypass the bullet. That bypassing gas doesn't do much to the copper zinc alloy used for gilding metal for bullet jackets. but with lead it gas cuts lead off the bullet and deposits it in the bore. The barrel may start clean, but with undersized lead bullets it quickly builds up a constricting layer of lead that squeezes bullets down even further and results in them being loose in the later part of the bore, spoiling accuracy. The accuracy deterioration due to leading is much worse than what a little extra squeezing introduces, so lead bullets are made a little larger in diameter to insure a good seal with the bore.
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