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  #1  
Old 05-10-2014, 10:31 AM
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Hey everybody, have a question about 2 rifle powders to be used in a 300 win mag, and a 338 win mag. The question-- Are Win. Supreme 780 and Hodg. Superformance possiblly the roughly same powder. About like H110--- and Win 296 within a grain or 2 .. Just wondered from looking at them from the new Nosler #7 reloading guide. .... Just Wondering !!! Greg Bayes from Ky.
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  #2  
Old 05-10-2014, 12:18 PM
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Greg,

The only difference between H110 and 296 is the slight shift in burn rate due and bulk density due to lot-to-lot variability. Both are canister grade WC296 from General Dynamics plant in St. Marks, Florida. Here's a key I put together from MSDS sheets awhile back:

Code:
Powders from 2009 MSDS sheets (some newer MSDS's lack the powder name information).
Note that bulk grade versions have wider burn rate specs and can vary significantly from the
canister grades, which are controlled for burn rate by blending with held back fast or slow 
lots, as needed, to adjust them to within 3% of their nominal burn rates.

     Canister      | Bulk Grade |       Canister         | Canister |      Canister        |
      Grade        |            |        Grade           |  Grade   |       Grade          |
                   | St. Marks  |                        |          |                      |
     Hodgdon       | Mil & OEM  |      Winchester        | Thales   |        IMR           |
___________________|__Numbers___|________________________|__(ADI)___|______________________|_
                   |            |                        |          |                      |
HP-38--------------|-- OBP231 --|- 231 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP124   |  AALite (WFL)          |          |                      |
Titewad            |   OBP132   |                        |          |                      |
Tightgroup --------|-- OBP242 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   OBP465   |  Super-Handicap (WSH)  |          |                      |
Longshot           |   OBP473   |                        |          |                      |
Lil' Gun ----------|-- OBP516 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
Hybrid 100V        |   SHP771   |                        |          |                      |
                   |   SMP224   |  AutoComp              |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WAA90 --|- WST ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H110               |    WC296   |  296                   |          |                      |
HS-6               |    WC540   |  540                   |          |                      |
-------------------|--- WC748 --|- 748 ------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H414               |    WC760   |  760                   |          |                      |
H335               |    WC844   |                        |          |                      |
BL-C(2)------------|--- WC846 --|------------------------|----------|----------------------|-
H380               |    WC852   |                        |          |                      |
US869              |    WC869   |                        |          |                      |
-------------------|-- WMR780 --|- Supreme 780 ----------|----------|----------------------|-
                   |   WXC170   |  WSF                   |          |                      |
Clays              |            |                        |  AS30N   |                      |
International Clays|------------|------------------------|- AS50N --|----------------------|-
Universal Clays    |            |                        |  AP70N   |                      |
H4227              |            |                        |  AR2205  |IMR 4227 second source|
H4198 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2207 -|----------------------|-
Benchmark          |            |                        |   BM2    |                      |
H322               |            |                        |  AR2219  |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2210 -|- IMR 8208 XBR -------|-
H4895              |            |                        |  AR2206H |                      |
Varget             |            |                        |  AR2208  |                      |
H4350 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2209 -|----------------------|-
H4831              |            |                        |  AR2213  |                      |
H4831SC            |            |                        | AR2213SC |                      |
H1000 -------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2217 -|----------------------|-
Retumbo            |            |                        |  AR2225  |                      |
H50BMG             |            |                        |  AR2218  |                      |
-------------------|------------|------------------------|- AR2215 -|IMR 4198 second source|
                   |            |                        |  AS25BP  |IMR Trail Boss        |
In answer to your question about Superperformance, no, it isn't the same. It started out as a proprietary powder for Hornady that they used in some (not all) of their Superperformance ammunition line.
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2014, 02:22 PM
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Superformance was designed around the 30-06 if it helps you any.
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  #4  
Old 05-10-2014, 04:20 PM
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Thank's Uncle Nick !! Nosler # 7 listed Superfmance exactlt over Winch. Supreme 780. I wondered that they might be the the same powder like win. 296 & H110... anyway Thanks Again !!!! Greg Bayes from Ky.
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  #5  
Old 05-20-2015, 05:50 PM
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Superformance has a very different burning curve than "regular" powders.
Here is what Progressive burn curve from it in the Creedmoor looks like.


Here is a regular powder's burn curve
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  #6  
Old 05-22-2015, 07:11 PM
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Multiple cartridges...

I see Superformance listed in multiple cartridges. It's listed for .300 WSM and for .375 Ruger. I want to use it in my .358 Sierra Stomper with 250-grain bullets. I'm thinkin' if it works in the .375 Ruger, it will work in my Stomper. I just have to figger-out how much to use...
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  #7  
Old 06-19-2015, 10:51 AM
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John Hicks

I have been trying to get Hogden Retumbo powder for 2 years now . Anybody know when or where Retumbo can be bought?
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  #8  
Old 06-19-2015, 01:07 PM
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Welcome to the board, John -

Guess I'll ask the obvious - have you tried the online supply outfits? A little costly with the required added hazmat fee, but a big enough order helps offset.
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  #9  
Old 06-23-2015, 05:22 PM
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I got some at Cabellas a couple of weeks ago.
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  #10  
Old 08-09-2015, 05:01 PM
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Western Canon powders

Nick, I like your chart from a year ago, especially the reference to WC852 and Wc869. I am now using 852 and WC860 a lot. Can you reverence WC867 or even WC872 for me?? any advice or comments you can give about rates or loads will be very helpful. The boys and I are trying to wean ourselves of 4831 and 4350 for our belted magnum elk rifles. Jack
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  #11  
Old 08-09-2015, 05:53 PM
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WC872 is pretty darn slow. Not sure what you are wanting to use it in, but the lot I have seems to be a little slower than H870. Darn few cartridges that will use it at full throttle because most won't be able to hold enough.

My version of Quickload includes WC869, which (in theory) would be a little faster. "In theory" because you'd want to test, as surplus powders can vary a bit. But it would at least give a good starting point.

No experience with WC867.

Best of luck.
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  #12  
Old 08-09-2015, 05:59 PM
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I'm copying a little relevant information from Welcome to Bartlett Reloaders - Jeff Bartlett regarding WC872, and my previous observation that it is maybe a little slower than H870 (hey sometimes the memory works correctly after all )

Assume you got the WC872 there? In any case, I took their advice and worked up starting with what would be normal H870 load data, and went from there. I forgot he also mentioned using AA8700 data,

Quote:
WC870 Here is some of the exact original type powder as was sold by Hodgdon, called H870, until discontinued. A ball powder originally used in the 20mm Vulcan round, until replaced by WC872. This powder is also very similar to Accurate Arms AA8700. Because of the lot to lot variations in burn rate, be sure to begin with listed starting load data. Works great in the .50BMG and other large capacity magnums. This is pulldown ball powder. $48/8# jug; $176/4-8# jugs ($44/jug); $240/6-8# jugs ($40/jug)

WC872 Original application is U.S. 20mm Vulcan ammo. A ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon H870 or AA8700 data. Very limited supply. Ideal for .50 BMG and other large capacity magnums. This is pulldown ball powder. $48/8# jug; $176/4-8# jugs ($44/jug); $240/6-8# jugs ($40/jug)
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  #13  
Old 08-10-2015, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hicks View Post
I have been trying to get Hogden Retumbo powder for 2 years now . Anybody know when or where Retumbo can be bought?
My Rem M700 300Umag loves it. I'm not sure where to find it. The last time I found it at Sportsman's Warehouse in Vernal, Ut.
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  #14  
Old 08-10-2015, 06:23 PM
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slow powder

MikeG, I have an ample supply of WC860 and primarily am loading my son's .300 Weatherby AI as well as my 30/338. I started with load data for .308 NORMA for the 30/338 and worked up loads. Been killing elk with 165 grain bullets but have several boxes of 220 grain that may be suitable as well as a shelf full of 180 grain. We are trying to wean ouselves off of 4831 and onto the ball powders. My youngest kills elk only with his 7mm Rem Mag whi le another uses only the .264 Mag Westerner. They can stay with their 4831 and/or wc860.

Thanks a bunch for your time and information. Jack
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Old 08-10-2015, 08:24 PM
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Is there any room left in the case with your WC860 loads? If not - I don't know that you'll get enough more WC872 in it to make any real difference.

Good luck.
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  #16  
Old 08-11-2015, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldguide32 View Post
MikeG, I have an ample supply of WC860 and primarily am loading my son's .300 Weatherby AI as well as my 30/338. I started with load data for .308 NORMA for the 30/338 and worked up loads. Been killing elk with 165 grain bullets but have several boxes of 220 grain that may be suitable as well as a shelf full of 180 grain. We are trying to wean ouselves off of 4831 and onto the ball powders. My youngest kills elk only with his 7mm Rem Mag whi le another uses only the .264 Mag Westerner. They can stay with their 4831 and/or wc860.

Thanks a bunch for your time and information. Jack
As a .264 mag shooter since 1964 I can tell you H-870/ Vulcan powder will pleasing give much more velocity than will any of the 4831"s & with lower pressure. In the .264 try this powder & the Barnes 130gr TSX for devastating take down power on elk.

Last edited by Dom; 08-11-2015 at 07:28 AM. Reason: Add text
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  #17  
Old 08-12-2015, 07:08 AM
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Thanks guys, that helps a lot. Jack
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Old 08-14-2015, 10:48 AM
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Mike, I was going to load it in the 300 Weatherby AI. I (seem to)remember my load was 82 gfrains of 4831, (or was that 84??) with 200 grain Sierra. I'm not at the shop and my memory is no longer than my , huh,
I do recall that even with WC860 the case is pretty ful. But I love the nice smooth measuring properties of the ball powder and I can buy 48 lbs at a time.

Dom, I bought a pair of Win 70 Westerners back in the 60;s and love them. The .264 really reaches out, I load 140 grain mostly and have a Redfield 3X9 scope on it. Jack in Oregon
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Old 08-14-2015, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldguide32 View Post
Mike, I was going to load it in the 300 Weatherby AI. I (seem to)remember my load was 82 gfrains of 4831, (or was that 84??) with 200 grain Sierra. I'm not at the shop and my memory is no longer than my , huh,
I do recall that even with WC860 the case is pretty ful. But I love the nice smooth measuring properties of the ball powder and I can buy 48 lbs at a time.

Dom, I bought a pair of Win 70 Westerners back in the 60;s and love them. The .264 really reaches out, I load 140 grain mostly and have a Redfield 3X9 scope on it. Jack in Oregon
Good day old guy ( wish I knew your name ). Any way I own three .264's & some other less powerful 6.5's. I used to at one time only consider the Nosler partition as my elk bullet. After being urged by a friend I finally tried the Barnes on elk. I never went back to the Partition.. I have shot elk with both the 120 & 130gr X & TSX & can tell no difference in putting an elk down. Both weights always penetrate completely thru. You might want to try some just to see the difference. They do work. I don't use them on deer since I can take good size muleys with the Sierra 120gr. No problem we do it every year. Just remember to load them around .050 + or - a bit off the lands as Barnes recommends & they will do the rest. Hope I have been of some help.
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  #20  
Old 08-14-2015, 03:30 PM
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Dom -

Check out the last sentence of Old Guide's post - you'll see "Jack in Oregon".

He and I have developed a great relationship over the internet for years now and he is a most intriguing personality.
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