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  #21  
Old 07-01-2015, 05:20 PM
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Crusty wrote:


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Amongst other good things the following which are particularly valid:

"Personally I'd avoid the Sierra because of the boat tail. Such bullets have been known to slip their cored with the help of the tapered heel. Different then some other folk, I have never been a Sierra fan."
Most boat tails have a very good shape for subsonic aerodynamics but not for the Mach 2.8 to Mach 3.0+ we get. Another time I'll comment on the out to 250 yards between flat base and bpat tail and why boat tails started in long distance artillery. A flat base is better for bore (throat) life as well as for consistent and slightly higher relative muzzle velocity compared to similar weight boat tail.

The Hornady Interlock (Interbond?) is a good bullet for a cup and core type. I have never used them but my son was very impresssed with the way his interbonds held up through the shoulders of blesbok this past weekend and with exactly the right amount of mushroom as the exit wounds indicated.

"With the right bullet and load, you will have no need for a boat tail bullet to beyond 500yds." Touched on above.

"...and 150gr is even better." If I was the designer of the .270W it would only have two bullet weights: 140gr for those who WANT 2,950 ft/sec at the muzzle, and then a 165 gr. flat base at 2,400 ft/sec at 200 yards for those who know the way it will go through the shoulders of an elk and be kind to the meat on deer as well.
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  #22  
Old 07-01-2015, 05:49 PM
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Any will work, including the Sierra

I have used Sierra, Hornady, and Speer for decades with good results. Each of my rifles likes a different bullet, even though they are all the same caliber. A few years back, I took a nice muley in western Colorado at 415 paces with the Sierra. He didn't go more than 30 yards and the bullet went completely through. As long as you have confidence in your load, you'll do fine.
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  #23  
Old 07-01-2015, 05:50 PM
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I have no experience with the Core Lokt bullets. But my old Winchester .270 will put 5 Hornady 140 gr. Interlocks into about an 1 1/8" at a hundred yards, chronographed at just under 3000 fps. That's when I'm having a good day. I have taken several Montana muleys with this bullet, from 80 yards to 200 yards, with one shot at 300 yards, Only one I recovered, was the 300 yard shot, very nicely mushroomed. The other bullets were in one side, out the other. I like it a lot. I used to shoot the Sierra 165 gr.GameKing boat tail from my .308, I never shot anything beyond 200 yards, and at .308 velocities I saw regular core/jacket separations. Some friends who shoot factory ammo swear by the regular Core Lokts. The Hornady gets my vote. Good luck
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  #24  
Old 07-01-2015, 08:17 PM
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Bullet selection

Hi all,
It really depends on what your rifle likes. The only way to discover this is to work up some
loads with powder and bullet and go to the range. For my wife's .270 Sako it likes Speer bullets
with 55 grains of IMR 4350. This took a lot of time and effort since my 30-06 Sako likes Sierra
165 grain boat tails for the best accuracy. the way the bullet sites in the chamber with the
ogive meeting the side of the throat and the distance from the throat to the lands makes
a huge difference in accuracy. with the bullet and powder that seems reasonable for the rifle
then do some work ups. with loads for the .270 IMR 4350 130 grain bullet 5 loads at each weight
at 48.4 grains of powder then 50.0 then 51.6 then 53. and then a max load of 55 grains.
starting with the lowest and going up for safety I will then take measurement of the spread
and let the rifle cool. then the next 5 and so on until I find the best pattern. This is a lot of
work at first but once you have what combination your rifle likes then you will know for next time
also I clean the rifle after ever 5 shots just to make sure that all factors are covered. this maybe excessive but it takes one more element out of the equation. on cleaning I recommend Nylon brushes
since copper will score the bore on many rifles if you scrub the bore (pulling the brush forward and back) with out exiting the bore.
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  #25  
Old 07-01-2015, 10:34 PM
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All your loads are accurate and will work fine. For me, the WSM will launch the 140's and 150's fast enough to give a ballistic edge. No real down side at all.
Of the three bullets you picked, I put the Core Lokt in last place. They shoot fine but in my 270's and .300 Win. Mag. they were not robust enough and (even the 180 gr. .308 slug...) went to pieces on average sized mulies shot under 100 yards. I've since had very good results with the Hornady Interlock as well as several of the Nosler products. With the Core Lokt and other cup and core designs, I limit my muzzle velocities to 2800 and under. They seem to work well in that 'envelope'. YMMV
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  #26  
Old 07-02-2015, 04:03 AM
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I'm not a .270 shooter, I do know a bunch of them. Very good all around rifle, and the size game you're going after fits very well within the calibers capabilities. Stay on the heavy end of the bullet choices, and you'll buck the long range wind a bit better, IF your rifling likes the longer bullets.
I personally like the Nosler ballistic tips on the antelope, but have seen many more hunters use the Partition on the muleys. If I were loading for a trip like you are planning, I'd likely go with the Partition, or some of it's counterparts in other brands. There isn't a bad bullet in the group you mentioned.
I have had a bad experience with the Core Lokt on a whitetail doe several years ago. Put a 150 gr. Corelokt through her ribs, could actually see a broken rib flopping on the off side as she ran off the property, jumped the fence. Went about 150 yards into a neighbors pasture, laid down. Gave her about 30 minutes, while I went to the neighbors house to confer as to whether I could retrieve my meat. He, being the good neighbor that he was,said of course I could. So off I went into his pasture, only to watch the doe jump up and run off, never to be found by me again. Which is why I went to a bullet more likely to expend all it's energy INSIDE the chest cavity, the Ballistic Tip. Usually, mule deer hunters prefer a complete pass through. Which explains the Partition choice. Not being a mule deer hunter, I can't fault or confirm their opinion. I just know that I've shot that ballistic tip out of my 308s and 300 Win Mag for years, on these Texas Whitetails, and had very good luck with very little tracking to do.
I did retrieve a Core Lokt from the body of a big doe I shot once. On the far side of the body, there was a large, hard lump in here skin. Upon skinning her, there was my bullet. Kept that bullet for several years. Perfect mushrooming, weighed 145 gr after the shot, where it was 150 gr before. Excellent weigh retention. There are a train load of deer killed with CoreLokt ammo in various calibers every year, so I figure one bad experience doesn't condemn a whole design. And Rem CoreLokt ammo is available nearly anywhere, which is always a good point to remember on a far away hunt.
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  #27  
Old 07-02-2015, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
I have a lot of experience with the core lokt, so I was mainly looking for feedback from guys with first hand experience with the Hornady Interlock and Sierra game King in 270 wsm. The core lokt tends to separate sometimes, and even not exit, but the effects of leaving all or most of the energy in the deer is devastating. Back when I shot partitions, most deer I shot would run 50-75 yards if shot behind the shoulder. Not so with the core lokts, most struggle to make it 10 yards if that. I was interested to see if guys had similar experiences with the Hornady and Sierra on game.
That's the differnce between a controlled expansion premium hunting bullet, and a regular jacketed expanding bullet. Your Corelokt probably expands a lot better on a through the ribs shot. The downside is that when you actually hit the shoulder instead of shoot behind it, your premium bullet will likely stay more intact, and more likely pass all the way through.

For a hunt I always opt for the best premium bullet I can buy. If its unnecessary expense, I'm looking at how many I will actually shoot on a hunt. The quickest way to drop a deer without having to trail him is taking out a shoulder on the way to the vitals. Not much meat to be destroyed on the shoulder anyways.

CoreLokt are good bullets, but your Partition and other premiums will be a lot more consistant and reliable when you start going through a lot of bone.
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  #28  
Old 07-02-2015, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimSr View Post
That's the differnce between a controlled expansion premium hunting bullet, and a regular jacketed expanding bullet. Your Corelokt probably expands a lot better on a through the ribs shot. The downside is that when you actually hit the shoulder instead of shoot behind it, your premium bullet will likely stay more intact, and more likely pass all the way through.

For a hunt I always opt for the best premium bullet I can buy. If its unnecessary expense, I'm looking at how many I will actually shoot on a hunt. The quickest way to drop a deer without having to trail him is taking out a shoulder on the way to the vitals. Not much meat to be destroyed on the shoulder anyways.

CoreLokt are good bullets, but your Partition and other premiums will be a lot more consistant and reliable when you start going through a lot of bone.
Not a lot of folks realize this, because the Corelokt has been around for so long, but it was the first "premium" bullet; by design, if not by price. It holds together very well, even when hitting heavy bones. For medium-sized, thin-skinned game, like deer, it is every bit as good as the Partition or other premium bullets. There are other good choices, but the Corelokt is never a bad one.
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  #29  
Old 07-02-2015, 06:07 AM
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I have tried many different bullets and find heavy for caliber Sierras driven below max speeds (<3k fps) give me consistently quicker kills than anything else. Text book performance and complete pass through penetration. People will complain that some Sierras are too fragile but it isn't the case when using the formula I use. They seem to dump a lot of energy. In the 270 I used 130, 140 and 150 Hornady's but have moved to the 140 Sierra you are trying.

The bullets you selected are all great. Most will get a touch better accuracy with Sierra's. I just prefer the quicker results I seem to get with them.
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  #30  
Old 07-02-2015, 08:03 PM
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I had no idea Mississippi whitetails went to 250lbs, always thought they went about 120lbs.
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  #31  
Old 07-03-2015, 02:57 AM
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There are parts of the south that had deer transplanted from Wisconsin, I think it was, back in the 50's. I'm still surprised they see deer that weigh 250-lbs, live weight, given how hot it gets down there. Most southern deer are lucky to weigh half that much.
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  #32  
Old 07-03-2015, 04:41 AM
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Deer weights

The 2 bucks over my fireplace weighed 245 and 235. There are areas along the MS River and Big Black River that produce some giant body weights. Very rich alluvial soil. My brother in law has a MS buck that weighed over 260.

Most of our 3.5 YO bucks in this area will weigh around 200 pounds, so I'd say it takes a 4.5 YO to get to around 230.

The deer that were brought in from Wisconsin 40 or 50 years ago are referred to Wisconsin blues. They have a grayish blue coat, but I've never heard of that gene being in the area of MS I'm speaking of. I hunted in Ethel, LA for a couple of years and we killed a few deer during those couple of years that the locals referred as having that Wisconsin blue gene. Their coats were noticeably different than other deer we killed in the same area.
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  #33  
Old 07-03-2015, 05:03 AM
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I've used the three bullets you mention in both 270 and 264 Mag, the Hornady Interlock more frequently in my 270 and the GameKing in the 264, and they have all performed excellently. Accuracy from both is MOA or better. I shoot the 270 in heavier cover hunting, close shots and the 264 for the open plains hunting. The largest I hunt are West Tx mule deer, big dudes... all one-shot kills where they stood. Bullet placement is critical. At close range, usually less than 100 yds, bullet destruction of meat is considerable so i'm contemplating moving to a Hornady GMX or Barnes TSX. Good hunting.
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  #34  
Old 07-03-2015, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
…A flat base is better for bore (throat) life as well as for consistent and slightly higher relative muzzle velocity compared to similar weight boat tail.
I should think the wear effect would be the opposite, just because of less bearing surface being engraved by the rifling as the bullet enters the bore, but I've never done a side-by-side comparison with same-weight bullets. A lot of service rifle match shooters will have the impression that this is true, but in their case the actual cause would be the military ball flat base bullets are lighter than the match boattails, and the shorter barrel time they have exposes the throat to peak pressure and temperature for a shorter time.

As to velocity difference between the two, again, I've never done a side-by-side with bullets I know had same jacket thickness or other differences neutralized, but it is certainly reasonable to expect. The smaller bearing surface of the boattail produces not only less total engraving resistance but a little less bore friction, assuming all else is truly identical, and these can lower velocity by reducing start pressure and then offering less resistance for the powder to build pressure against past the point engraving is completed. The same happens with moly or hBN coated bullets. Less friction and less velocity per grain of powder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
The Hornady Interlock (Interbond?) is a good bullet for a cup and core type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
I have never used them but my son was very impresssed with the way his interbonds held up through the shoulders of blesbok this past weekend and with exactly the right amount of mushroom as the exit wounds indicated.
The Interlock and Interbond are different. The InterLock is a soft point that does not have a bonded core, but rather uses an internal ring formed into the jacket that helps prevent the core from slipping forward out of the jacket. The Interbond is an actual bonded core bullet with the core soldered or by other means adhered to the jacket.

I would guess the nose of the Interlock soft point might expand more easily because it can slip against the inside of the jacket ogive, but would do better than straight cup and core about retaining the core in the jacket. The Interbond would have the advantage that you can shoot it at higher peak pressure for a given rifling twist rate before core stripping occurs. Core stripping is where the bullet core slips inside the jacket due to high angular acceleration (which peaks at the pressure peak) inside the bore, so the bullet exits the muzzle with the jacket spinning a little faster than the core. This is opens groups up. So I expect the Interbond to be able to be loaded faster in the magnum rifles before groups open up.

I've also read, but not tested personally, that Hornady's softpoints are softer than Sierra's and more prone to slumping during very high acceleration inside a barrel. Like core stripping, this would manifest itself as groups opening up (but a lot less than with core stripping) past a certain peak pressure threshold.
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  #35  
Old 07-03-2015, 07:19 AM
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WOW Freefloater,

You make ever so good a case for an issue that I have hammered on repeatedly.

Typically when someone speaks of some cartridge, usually larger ones, being "over kill" it is in large part the bullet in use and NOT the cartridge.

Yes, velocity is a big factor, but even with velocities such as those seen with the 264, the bullet plays a really big part in the meat loss/destruction situation.

Few folk will see the .270 used in most of your close in hunting situations as an "over kill" cartridge when used on game animals, yet you state, "---- destruction of meat is considerable -----", with the bullets you discuss, even the Hornady Interlock which is one of the better cup an core type bullets.

Your possible move to bullets of higher integrity is warranted, at least in my opinion. Good thought!

Cleary you have already been there and done that as indicated by your, "Bullet placement is critical." comment.

I know that these comments - yours and mine - will get some folks hackles raised as they will come back with, such an such a bullet always kills my critters where they stand, etc. etc. etc. but I don't believe that is the point of your post or mine.

Yes, no question that there are many bullets of questionable integrity that will usually put a critter on the ground, end of that discussion!

The very accurate in many 45/70 rifles, 325gr Hornady FTX "gummy nose/burger on the hoof" being a prime example of bullet caused, "over kill". Poor hits will definitely decrease the load of usable meat taken home, Yep, seen it with my own eyes.

But I have also seen GREATLY EXCESSIVE meat loss in that cartridge with a 355gr Wide Flat Nose cast at 2300fps muzzle velocity while the same bullet design/profile in a 465gr WFN cast at 1650fps simply gets the job done, in spades!!, without the "over Kill."

So, velocity at high levels only increases the need for a heavy for cartridge/caliber bullet of better integrity if maximizing the meat brought home is the goal, and not just putting critters on the ground.

The 355gr at the decreased velocity levels would have likely given the same positive results as the 465gr, but with a decrease of the penetration levels in bugger critters such as elk and moose etc.

One more example from the Hornady line up. This normally good company has made some really bone headed moves in recent years, another of which is their "Whitetail" line of ammunition.

In that ammunition line, they have been really stupid in at least some cases, their "White Tail" load for the 7mm mag and the 300 Win mag. being prime examples.

Again, not one question that these loads will put a White Tail on the ground, but at what cost?.

In both of those examples, they have loaded a light for cartridge bullet, but are still sending them on their way at normal velocities for the cartridge and bullet weight. Daaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

For the game they have targeted, and the bullets/cartridges used, a much better White Tail load would have been with a decrease in muzzle velocity of at least 500fps, or even better couple the velocity decrease with a heavy for caliber/cartridge bullet. They are after all, are targeting White Tails here.

Anyway, your experience has brought you to some good conclusions. I only wish more folk would read and heed.

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot
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  #36  
Old 07-03-2015, 09:40 AM
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I'm a huge fan of Hornady's SST. I run them in a 260 (129 gr), 270 (130 gr) and a host of 30 calibers (150 & 165 gr). The performance on whitetails is excellent as is their accuracy. The SST gets my vote.
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  #37  
Old 07-03-2015, 03:24 PM
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Before I move to Co 1977, I purchased thru Wby custom shop a 7 Wby and only thing that made it custom was choice of barrels/stocks.

After I got the rifle I got some factory ammo and I really didn't want to load for it as I would be using my 7mag when I got to Co and Wby just be back up rifle.

Ammo I got was loaded with 154gr Hornady Interlock SP bullet and Wby still uses a Hornady bullets for their ammo along with others.

http://www.weatherby.com/media/weatherby/ballistics.pdf
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  #38  
Old 07-03-2015, 04:36 PM
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By Uncle Nick

Uncle Nick, you made a valid and important observation: "I should think the wear effect would be the opposite, just because of less bearing surface being engraved by the rifling as the bullet enters the bore, but I've never done a side-by-side comparison with same-weight bullets. A lot of service rifle match shooters will have the impression that this is true, but in their case the actual cause would be the military ball flat base bullets are lighter than the match boattails, and the shorter barrel time they have exposes the throat to peak pressure and temperature for a shorter time."

The reason of at least the thoat wear in this instance is not the friction, it is the blow-by into the case neck caused by the smaller surface of the boat tail making a pressure gap around the rear of the bullet. The so-called doughnut effect is one part of this problem when using boat tails in short neck, high pressure chambers.

Similarly the small but measurable increase in muzzle velocity of the flat base is the larger bearing surface that the pressure inside the case has to act upon. This ideal "square" for the "pounds per square inch" is enhanced if that flat base is perfectly level with the neck. The principle holds good from ignition all the way to where the bullet exits the muzzle.

This is particularly negative as far as optimum performance is concerned when the longer boat tail bullet has to be set back into the case to allow for magazine or leade dimensions. Short actions limit their ammunition to a factory maximum bullet weight because of these considerations. The 7mm-08 would do very well with a 175 gr bullet but the short neck and magazine limits it to about 150 gr with a flat base and 140 gr with a boat tail. Again this is where the beauty of the old 7x57 (compared to the 7mm-08) shows. The standard action of the 7x57 allows for heavier (read longer) bullets set out to have the base exactly correct in order make use of the generous leade.

You wrote: "The Interlock and Interbond are different. The InterLock is a soft point that does not have a bonded core, but rather uses an internal ring formed into the jacket that helps prevent the core from slipping forward out of the jacket. The Interbond is an actual bonded core bullet with the core soldered or by other means adhered to the jacket".

Quite, sir. When Speer pulled their most excellent Deep Curl metallurgically-bonded bullets for the handloader us hunters lost what must have been the best on the market. My 7x57 ONLY shoots 160gr Deep Curl (in my experience on big game it is better than the Nosler Partitions I have used in all my hunting calibres until now), and when my present 200 one day run out the Hornady Interbond will be the next bullet. That 150 gr from my son's .308 hitting the mule deer sized blesbok at 200 yards killed her in her tracks with minimal meat damage told us a good story. It went in a straight line through both shoulders, having severed the top arteries from the heart and broke the shank of a sub-adult ram which was not seen through the scope 120 yards further along its line. (Added on edit): Next test will hopefully be kudu and blue wildebeest shoulders at 80-100 yards with 180 gr from both the .308W and 30-06.
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  #39  
Old 07-04-2015, 05:30 AM
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Advice on bullets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinbear View Post
I had no idea Mississippi whitetails went to 250lbs, always thought they went about 120lbs.
Kevinbear,

We shoot does that run 140-160 pounds (typically, barren does). A 3-1/2 year old buck will go 220 pounds. Either you're thinking of the hill country in Texas, or you're talking to the myriad of hunters who shoot yearlings. Unfortunately, our thick hunting country requires hunters more than shooters. Many shoot the first deer they see, typically a youngster.
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Old 07-04-2015, 06:47 AM
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Kevinbear,

We shoot does that run 140-160 pounds (typically, barren does). A 3-1/2 year old buck will go 220 pounds. Either you're thinking of the hill country in Texas, or you're talking to the myriad of hunters who shoot yearlings. Unfortunately, our thick hunting country requires hunters more than shooters. Many shoot the first deer they see, typically a youngster.
Interesting, that must be a myth about small deer in the south.
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