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30-30 ACKLEY iMPROVED ???

24K views 64 replies 25 participants last post by  moose 
#1 ·
wHAT IS A 30-30 ACKLEY IMPROVED ?
 
#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
RML9MM said:
wHAT IS A 30-30 ACKLEY IMPROVED ?
A "wildcat" round (not produced by the factroy). Idea here is to rechamber an exisiting .30-30 to a new shape...new chamber with less body taper, sharper shoulder, more powder volume. Fore a standard 30-30 in this chamber, and the case will be reformed into the new version.

Have been some variations on the 30-30 improved, but the basic idea is to increase the powder space of the case (after firing)...reloaded, more powder space (even at the same pressure) equates to more possible velocity.
 
#4 ·
RML9MM said:
Thanks for the Quick reply ribbonstone
Guess part of the attraction is that you can still shoot 30-30's in it...the cases will blow out to the new shape, and you'll lose some velocity, but it will go "bang". Only advantage is in reloading the newly formed cases.

Now in real life, if you keep pressures the same, you'll gain about 1/4 to 1/3 the PERCENTAGE of volume increase....so if volume increased by 12%, then loading the same bullets at the same overall pressure, could expect about a 3-4% increase in vel. MOst relaoders will push the impoved version harder (higher than factory 30-30 load pressure) and earn perhaps 10% more vel.
 
#7 ·
Mine also, remained very accurate when shooting "normal" 30-30 thru the improved. Did loose a little velocity, but that to me was expected, as part of the energy was consumed in the "fire forming".
Slim you're getting good at those pictures.
Also, concur with ribbonstone on performance. The reforming of the case lets you work at the higher pressures, with an element of safety. Though Ackley's results in his book are pretty "aggressive". From what I understand that is due in part to the fact that he used a bolt action rifle. So, I personally find the postings on this web site more realistic and the information to my knowledge is all derived from lever action rifles, besides be current.
They are an inexpensive wild-cat to make. You'll have alot of inexpensive fun once made.
 
#8 ·
I saw this thread when i googled. Does annyone has anny notes of how much do you get from a 30-30 AI? Would be fun to know if it´s worth to make it AI or not just of getting higher velocity.
 
#9 · (Edited)
The 30/30AI has about 5 grains more capacity than the standard version. If you stick to SAAMI pressures, you might see ~150fps more velocity. You might also get less case stretch, less backthrust against your breech face or bolt head and you might get better case life.

What you will DEFINITELY get, is something a little bit unique to play around with and hunt. Truth be told, it's rarely worth "Improving" a cartridge, other than to simply enjoy shooting a rifle that is different than your run of the mill jobs.

ETA - I would not bother with a 30/30 AI in anything but a strong, single-shot or bolt-action rifle that could handle slightly higher pressures.
 
#10 ·
There are 30 or more threads on the Ackley Improved on this forum. Good search engine on this forum.
Go to the linked thread below and there are a number of links to other 30-30AI threads.

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/69295-30-30ackley-improved.html

If you are unwilling to load to higher pressures there is no real advantage to the 3-30 Improved. Sam fadala in his book on the Model 94 did not load to higher pressure but relied on the longer barrel to give him Improved performance.
*** you will see in the threads the 20” barrel Model 94 will push the 110-grain bullets to 3,000 fps, the 125- 130-grain bullets to 2,700 fps, the 150-grain bullets to 2,500 fps and the 170-grain bullets to 2,350 fps.
You can generate higher velocities but the pressures are high.
Not everyone is happy with the 30-30AI and you need to be aware of that. There are several threads that bear reading - the threads by Taylor are on my mind. Loading the cartridge will require some extra care and there are some techniques which must be learned but the cartridge will deliver high performance when loaded to higher pressure.
 
#11 ·
There are 30 or more threads on the Ackley Improved on this forum. Good search engine on this forum.
Go to the linked thread below and there are a number of links to other 30-30AI threads.

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/69295-30-30ackley-improved.html

If you are unwilling to load to higher pressures there is no real advantage to the 3-30 Improved. Sam fadala in his book on the Model 94 did not load to higher pressure but relied on the longer barrel to give him Improved performance.
*** you will see in the threads the 20” barrel Model 94 will push the 110-grain bullets to 3,000 fps, the 125- 130-grain bullets to 2,700 fps, the 150-grain bullets to 2,500 fps and the 170-grain bullets to 2,350 fps.
You can generate higher velocities but the pressures are high.
Not everyone is happy with the 30-30AI and you need to be aware of that. There are several threads that bear reading - the threads by Taylor are on my mind. Loading the cartridge will require some extra care and there are some techniques which must be learned but the cartridge will deliver high performance when loaded to higher pressure.
Good post.
BTW- that is an excellent book for anyone who likes the 30/30 and/or the M-94 to have in their collection (and I do;)).
 
#12 ·
Thanks!
There are three important things for anyone to consider today, before reaming to the Improved chamber.
1st, fully explore the 30-30 in your current rifle. Then you will know the level of Improvement.
2nd, The 308 Marlin Express, for all practical purposes renders the 30-30AI obsolete. The early Marlin 308MX is a very accurate rifle with factory ammunition and the Handloader is hard pressed to beat the accuracy delivered from the Hornady product. “Remlin” is having quality problems but they will be solved and when they are new rifles will again be of the standard we expect.
3rd, The standard 30-30 is a versatile and interesting cartridge to load and shoot. A rifleman with a 30-30 and a 308ME has a potent pair of rifles.
 
#14 ·
I don't know if that's the same book I have or not. The cover is completely different, and I see on yours it says in the smaller print "The Rifle America Loves" , whereas on mine it says says "The Story of the Most Popular Sporting Rifle Ever Designed". My book has 3 different model 94's criscrossed in front of, and on top of a wooden wall and bench on the cover. Mine is also titled-

Winchester 94
America's
Rifle

Different book, or just a different cover from a different run (if you know)?
 
#15 ·
For .30-30 reloaders, I saw maybe 30 boxes of .30-30 unfired Federal brass on clearance at Graf's yesterday for $6.00 a box (20 ea). That is some cheap brass! Makes me wish I had a Contender in .30-30!
 
#20 ·
An "IMPROVED" 30-30 is an oxymoron, you simply cannot improve a 30-30, its perfection just like it is, if I want more gas I'll go to a 300 savage, 308 Savage or whatever....The mod. 94 with its iron sights is a 250 yard gun at best, and thats what its intended to be and adding 200 FPS will change nothing as far as killing a deer or elk. It still takes a shot in the heart or lungs to work.
 
#21 ·
Interesting discussion re the 'AI'. Been considering having my 340 rechambered to 'AI'. As it is bolt action it should handle both the pressure and the pointy-type bullets planned for it. Not to mention that getting it rechambered is as easy as undoing the barrel nut, unscrewing the barrel, a trip to the local gunsmith, and reverse the process.

Had a lever in 30-30 years ago but was always annoyed that spire-points were a no-no. The normal ammo was too limiting as to range. At the time my hunting was in a valley across scrub bruss, not forest.
 
#22 ·
30-30 AI increases brass life because you're no longer sizing a tapered cartridge; I have yet to wear any of mine out and a lot of mine are once fired that I picked up, reloaded, fire formed and then reloaded over and over. There is a bit of a velocity increase firing AI reloads and no loss of accuracy with factory rounds, see the attached target and look for the closely spaced 3-.30cal holes. That rested 100 yard group was fired with 150gr Winchester Silvertip that left the factory in the late 1940's! My handloads do a tich better. As I've previously mentioned, my rifle is built on a salvaged M99 that left the factory in 1912 as a .22High Power.
The first time I took the rifle hunting I dropped my deer with a 50 yard head shot using the Speer 150gr RN over IMR 3031.
bob
 

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#23 ·
I keep seeing references to using "pointy bullets" in a 340. Better take some along when you go to purchase it so you won't be dissapointed after you shell out money. No bullet except a flat point will fit in mine when seated anywhere near correctly. Magazine is too short. You could always put one in the chamber, but that will work with a lever gun too.
 
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#27 ·
Believe it or don't, the 30-30 can be a very accurate cartridge if treated right. It was one of the original calibers in the Winchester Model 54 and could be ordered in the later Model 70. In the Ackley configuration it was a successful Benchrest cartridge in the 1990s. Known then as the 30 Aardvark. The Federal 30 American case was developed for the Aardvark, among other cartridges.

 
#29 ·
The SAAMI pressure limits for the 30-30 are 42,000 psi. The SAAMI limits for the 7-30 Waters is 50,000 psi. I suspect that modern .30-30 brass used in a modern manufacture 30-30 could also be safely loaded to 50,000 psi. The reason the SAAMI limits for 30-30 are so low is that they must be safe for use in any 30-30 ever made even one 121 years old. Both steel and brass have improved considerably since then.

The extra capacity combined with a little boost in pressure could give some increase in performance while keeping recoil reasonable. I once had a Remington 788 in 30-30 and it performed well but pressures were really not and issue in that gun. I sold it not because of dissatisfaction with the magazine arrangement. I often carry a rifle grasped around the action and the protruding magazine was awkward. Ironically just last week while sorting through some unpacked boxes from my last move I can across some fired 30-30 AI cases. Comparing them with the originals makes clear why the original is preferred for cast bullets. The much longer neck makes it possible to keep the bullet body entirely within the neck.
 
#30 ·
Easy to load the .30-30AI above 50,000 CUP. There are many powders that will do the deed safety.

The only thing you have to do is not get carried away. I loaded to high pressure looking for the margin of safety. We get good performance with a sigificant Improvement and excellent case life.

Today the 308 Marlin Express obsoletes the .30-30AI but it remains an interesting cartridge to load, shoot and hunt with.

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-cartridges/9669-30-30-improved-maximum-loads.html
 
#31 ·
I understand your reasoning concerning obsolescence, but, there are some folks who already own a 30-30, and wish to keep it! And, there's nothing wrong with wanting more performance,---As you pointed out, the pressures were set very low for safety's sake, but when everything is considered and you have a rifle that was manufactured well into the twentieth century, you're handicapping yourself with 35,000 CUP!
 
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