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45-70 elk load

62K views 43 replies 28 participants last post by  rbrtkuester@hot 
#1 ·
I've decided not to getthe 338-06 jsut yet and get something a little different. I think this summer ( I just spent my money on a 336 in 35rem) I will get a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. I am already thinking of loads for it. What would be a good load for elk that has about the flattest trajectory that a 45-70 can have but still has enough power for elk? I was thinking of either the Nolser 300gr protected point or the BTB 325g FNGC with the tip softened.
 
#2 ·
I would think anything within the spectrum of 45-70 would have plenty of power for elk. The Nosler is going to expand, whereas the hardcast BTB will expand very little and penetrate deeper. On an elk, I would be wondering about over-penetration.

If you are looking for fast and flat, you might also consider the 250 grain Barnes flat nose X-Bullet.
 
#3 ·
I would go with any 300 grain soft nose. You will want that solid nose for deeper penetration on Elk. You will have a better bleed out than with any hollowpoint. You want it to pass through if possible. If you just stay with the 300 gr. solid nose, you will be fine.
 
#4 ·
IMHO...

If was just going to shoot a light 250 grain bullet, I'd go with a 358 cal...or even a 30 with a 220 grainer. The beauty of the 45-70 is with the heavier bullets. Barnes makes great 300 grain, 350, 400 and 450 bullets for the 45-70 that are good from 150 to 200 yards depending on velocity and your ability.

You don't need more than 2000 fps or so to get great performance from those bullets.
 
#5 ·
Speaking from experience, I do not recommend a bullet for the .45-70 below 350 grains. The smaller bullets have a tendency to tumble. Hot loads, with light bullets or heavy ones, also will shoot very high for the first 100 yards before settling down. The problem with hunting elk is you do not know at what range you will be shooting. If you can discipline yourself to shoot at under 150 yards just about any .45-70 bullet will work if the shot placement is correct and if you sight in for about 2" high at 100. But, if you are thinking of shooting an elk at 200 yards you will need a hotter load, one that will probably be 6 to 8" high at 100 yards. The problem then is what happens should you see an elk at 75 yards. It is possible that in the heat of the excitement you will aim dead-on and hit too high or miss.
If I was determined to hunt elk with my .45-70 again (and I might) I would probably choose a North Fork 350 and work up a load with a velocity of about 1875 fps. Solid hardcast bullets are fine, and Marshall's are as good as they come, but be sure you aim for bone. Most hunters have trained themselves to shoot for a double-lung shot. A double-lung with solids will kill a big elk but he is likely to go hundreds of yards into deep brush before he drops. A single lung shot could mean that he would go far enough that you might not recover him. The .45-70 is an excellent elk cartridge if you limit yourself to brush or semi-brush hunting, but if you want the versatility of taking a bull that is standing in a clearcut at 250-300 yards it is a poor choice.
 
#6 ·
Handload a 350 gr. Hornady to 1900-2000 fps and you will be good out to 200 yards, once you learn the trajectory. My 1895G shoots that load with wonderful accuracy and is pretty flat shooting for a 45-70. That bullet is also inexpensive enough to be able to practice a good bit without draining your wallet.
 
#7 ·
LONG post

This is a long post from the Alaska Shooting Forum (I forgot to copy the URL but can find it if people are interested). Written by one of the moderators over there, and he does some EXCELLENT posting. This is just on the 45-70 and is on topic.
***********************
All this talk about the 45-70 as an all-round rifle makes me wonder about the role this old cartridge is now being asked to play in the hunting fields. Oh, don’t get me wrong I think it’s a great old warhorse, but if a hunter were out to acquire a new rifle for general river bottom duties, there are better choices. Much has been written, here and elsewhere, about the prowess of the 45-70 as a hunting rifle, all good comments, but I think some are misleading. Before I step on too many toes let me say that I agree with the general concept of the 45-70 here of late but I think the analysis doesn’t go far enough.

First of all, if an individual will set out to find the best do-it-all rifle caliber, I can’t see the reasoning for the 45-70. Great to add to the battery but if it were the only one, I would consider myself ill equipped, except in some few circumstances. Now if we have only a 45-70 and would like to make it work for every thing, we’ll do the best we can, there’s plenty to work with, but we can’t make into a dragon slayer. The decision for the 45-70 is based, in part I believe, on the recent modern loadings for the caliber and published loading data that indicate very high energy levels due to higher velocity of light for caliber bullets, specifically 300 and 350 grain. These would also have the added advantage of flattening the pumpkin ball trajectory that has become the accepted norm for the caliber. The light for caliber loading for the 45-70 some 130 years ago was a 405 grain load, the 500 grain being standard until the cavalry wanted something lighter to keep the mounted soldiers on their horses after firing the heavy loads.

Energy figures touted by ammo manufacturers today make for a wonderful marketing agenda but unfortunately don’t tell the whole story and are not necessarily supported in actual field performance. You mileage may vary and some models don’t fit all tracks! Kinetic Energy is formulated as ½ the Mass times the square of Velocity. Well this certainly gives the edge of 8 to 1 odds to velocity. Mass is not the weight of the bullet, it is the weight of the bullet in pounds (grains/7000) divided by the static acceleration of gravity (about 32 ft/sec). We then multiply this tiny number by the square of the velocity to get the energy figures. (You can try this at home) This gives a big number and looks more impressive on the back of the ammo box. What is not mentioned is a more meaningful concept called momentum. (Mass x velocity) We learned in Metallic Silhouette shoots that it was the momentum of the bullet that pushed the rams over, not the dazzling energy figures.

The light for caliber projectiles for the 45-70 certainly make it a quicker getter of game in the deer and caribou class and connecting on longish shots an easier task but are not the ticket when a much more massive animal rears his majestic head across a wide drainage. For a bullet to do its work it must reach the vitals and destroy them, and to do that, several factors must be met. I will list them in no particular order except to say that the first is always first.
1. Marksmanship
2. Penetration
3. Bullet Construction
4. Caliber
5. Impact Velocity
6. Bullet Stability
We aren’t going to discuss number one, for obvious reasons, except to say that of all the animals I’ve missed, this was the cause. Number two is a big one and really the subject of this dissertation. We will discuss number three in more detail later but for now I will say the bullet must stay together and not expand so much as to limit penetration. It must be matched to the animal and impact velocity. The next three, along with the bullet construction, are all so inter-related they must be discussed together.

Back to the 45-70 cartridge of the 21st century, a large caliber by most standards, and impressive looking. Whether loaded with a 450 grain LBT style bullet or one of the new 350 grain JHP’s, it looks as if it can get the job done. But can it? What is more important, velocity or bullet weight? How can we be sure a bullet will penetrate? Why are some calibers better in the game fields than others? What’s so great about the 30-06 or the 375H&H? The 30-06 and the 375, along with a few others have been around almost as long as the venerable 45-70 and like it have a great reputation as a hunting caliber. It is my position that the 45-70’s reputation, though well deserved, is from a more specialized style of hunting than the other two as they are more generally accepted as universal calibers and more versatile. This style of hunting is very respectable and quite demanding, often requiring more skill than the 400 yard cross-canyon shot. This is spot and stalk and get up close to deliver the goods. A task at which the 45-70 will be well suited with most loadings, but it is not suited nor should not be used for the long cross-river shot on the big bull, just before he slips into the alder thicket. Even with the new loadings of 300 grains at 2300 fps from the Marlin. Here is the problem. Penetration or the lack of it. I promised we’d talk about it.

Penetration is a product of caliber, on the negative side, and bullet weight and impact velocity on the positive side. And of course bullet construction, which can make or break any deal, but for the purposes of this discussion, will always be perfect, not magic but perfect, no matter the velocity or the toughness of the beast, it will always work for us.

I said caliber on the negative side meaning the bigger the caliber (bullet diameter) the harder it is to push it through any thing. Always sharpen you spear correctly. I also said bullet weight and velocity on the positive side. (Velocity is important?) The bullet weight/bullet diameter relationship is already well compensated for with what we call sectional density. It is the weight of the bullet in pounds divided by the square of the diameter. (More math) So this is getting simple already, just two things Sectional Density (SD) and Velocity, specifically impact velocity. How much of each do we need? The answer would surely be how much penetration do we need? The skull of an elephant is about 14 inches of spongy shock absorbing bone and when taking a frontal brain shot we need lots of penetration. Ok, we’re not hunting elephant, but you get the idea. How about a black tail deer? Not much needed. How about moose and other big brown furry things? Well, obviously we need a lot of penetration. Before we penetrate any further into this subject (pun intended), let’s talk a bit more about bullet weight. Well, I said 300-350 grain bullets are light for caliber bullets. They are short and have low SD. If its diameter were less for the same weight penetration will be better. Or, if it was heavier and of the same diameter, it would penetrate more, always, given equal construction and velocity. The “magic” number for Sectional density is .300, or there about, that’s what we shoot for. Bullets with SD numbers .300 and above are rarely ever recovered. They pock mark the country side beyond our target, for through and through penetration. Two holes, always better than one. For a bullet that cannot fail and a given SD, velocity will determine penetration, the faster the deeper. Now if this seems too simple just remember, we have a perfect bullet. Caliber is listed as number 4, so how does it help to destroy the vitals. Bigger bullets make bigger holes.

Let’s delve into those other factors and see how they relate to penetration. Bullet construction and impact velocity must both be considered when selecting hunting bullets and calibers and they must both be matched to the intended quarry or at least for a certain group of animals. Since I have written reams on this subject I will summarize it now by simply saying; the higher the impact velocity, the stronger the bullet must be and impact velocity should be considered as muzzle velocity for bullet selection purposes because we don’t know where we will stand when we need it. There are many very good, proven bullets available, we have no excuses. This brings us to velocity, specifically 45-70 velocities. There are volumes of data for hand loading and many custom loads available from varied makers that claim to be as good as it gets to wring every ounce of killing power from this old veteran. Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon and Garrett are all very popular and of good quality. These range from a 300 grain JSP at 2350 fps to a 500 FMJ at1625 fps, for Buffalo Bore, and they are further labeled, penetrator load and expander load, to avoid confusion I guess. There 430 grain LBT hard cast (solid) penetrator load is listed at 1925 fps and I’ve chronographed these from an 18.5” barreled Marlin Guide Gun and obtained a very consistent 1818 fps. So it is my guess that these and all velocities are taken from a rifle with a 22” barrel, not 18”. Now, even the highest velocity is low by modern smokeless powder rifle standards, but let’s assume that these velocities will be the same in our gun and go from there.

This range of velocities, from about 1200 fps to about 1800 fps is what I call puncture wound velocities. I call it that because for a projectile to do damage at this velocity, it must just penetrate from momentum because expansion cannot be depended upon to add any tissue destruction. For a bullet to expand at these velocities it would have to be so lightly constructed that it would destroy itself upon impact with all but the most thinly constructed of targets. This is high performance handgun velocity, and in some cases can make large surface wounds but cannot be relied upon to both penetrate and expand, such as a Swift a-frame bullet would from a 300 Win mag. This leaves the 45-70 right on the edge where the next level begins. This is the 1800-2250 fps range. This is stopping rifle velocity. This is the velocity of the many proven Nitro Express calibers that are still used today to stop charges. But at this velocity expansion is considered a problem rather than a benefit and it would only serve to reduce penetration, so solids or very strongly constructed and always heavy for caliber bullets are used, when dealing with nasty stuff. 500 grain 458’s, 570 grain 470’s and 900 grain for the 618 bore of the 600 Nitro express and with SD of .340, .368 and .337 respectively. When we push the 45-70 to its limit it will be in this category with heavy hard cast bullets, but only at up close charge stopping distance. Actually all the NE calibers have a muzzle velocity of 2000-2100 fps, so when compared to them it is still wanting. Expansion is not a reliable characteristic at this velocity and rather than depend on it, we try to eliminate it when dealing with the tough guys. This is the slot the 458 Win mag was intended for but was found lacking when factory ammo didn’t achieve the required velocity. And the 45-70 is not a 458 Winnie! In order for the 45-70 to effectively enter this category of stopping rifles it would have to be fired from the strongest rifle available for it and that is the Ruger No. 1. That would be at more than 3 times its original pressure levels. I have fired the 450 grain LBT style bullets at 2150 fps from my Rugers 22” barrel and I don’t want to do that. That is very hard on the brass and the rifle. The Ruger is a heck of a lot stronger than Marlin 1895 so I’m sure we won’t try that in the Guide Gun. To use the 45-70 to fill a niche that it was never intended to fill is not going to work well. It is an up close gun; don’t try to flatten the trajectory to reach out yonder, which makes it less effective up close. An LBT style bullet of 400-450 grains at 1800 is about it in the Marlin guide gun and it will be at its best.

Now, briefly, for number 6, Bullet Stability, as most know is produced by the spin the rifling imparts to the bullet as it goes down the barrel. True, but how much is enough?
This is a function of surface feet per minute (sf/m), as the bullet rotates, the distance it would be traveling if rotating on a flat surface each minute. It is not rpm but sf/m. So the larger bores will stabilize at lower rpm than smaller bore. Also the longer a bullet the more sf/m it will need to stabilize, this is a length thing not a weight thing. Also a pointed spitzer requires more sf/m than a round nose or flat nose of the same length. (Even though the RN/FN is heavier) It is easy to stabilize a bullet in the air, but to keep it stable when it runs into grass, twigs, trees or a dumb animal is another chore entirely. Yes a bullet must be stable after impact in order to penetrate in a straight line yes it must be straight or it doesn’t count. (Remember number 1, we pointed it at the vitals.) Spitzer bullets, particularly fmj’s are notorious for veering off course (yaw) due to loss of stability on impact. Many controlled expansion spitzer bullets that fail to expand for what ever reason will do this. So, stability is aided by bullet weight (energy of rotating forces, flywheel effect), blunt configuration, tough, (retains shape) and bullet diameter, the bigger the better. So a good bullet must be chosen and will still be a compromise. For the 45-70 to perform at its best, meaning get the most horse power out of the old war horse, it needs heavy, high sectional density, hard cast, (basically solids) LBT style bullets at achievable velocities, about 1800 fps. Put them in the right spot at ranges of about 100-150 yards and you will see good results.

Weren't this fun. Good shootin'.

Murphy
 
#8 ·
Razorsharp said:
I've decided not to getthe 338-06 jsut yet and get something a little different. I think this summer ( I just spent my money on a 336 in 35rem) I will get a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. I am already thinking of loads for it. What would be a good load for elk that has about the flattest trajectory that a 45-70 can have but still has enough power for elk? I was thinking of either the Nolser 300gr protected point or the BTB 325g FNGC with the tip softened.
A 405gr Remingtom JSP launched at 1800fps is still moving 1200fps at 300yds. Now everyone would "oooh" and "ahhh" at a hangun doing 405gr@1200fps, but somehow they don't think it is adequate from a rifle.

Going light with the 45-70 is a mistake.
 
#9 ·
Razorsharp said:
I've decided not to getthe 338-06 jsut yet and get something a little different. I think this summer ( I just spent my money on a 336 in 35rem) I will get a Marlin 1895 in 45-70. I am already thinking of loads for it. What would be a good load for elk that has about the flattest trajectory that a 45-70 can have but still has enough power for elk? I was thinking of either the Nolser 300gr protected point or the BTB 325g FNGC with the tip softened.

Reply:

The best advise on the 45-70 is checking out companies such as: Garrett, Buffalo Bore, and Grizzly Cartridge. I shoot a 45-70 chambered in a Marlin 1895, and can contest to many loads, both factory and reloads. The 300 grain loads, in general terms, due not compare to the 405's, 420's , and 500's when downrange energy is considered. For elk, uncontested, is the 405 grain (cast or jacketed) at a muzzle velocity of 2000 fps or better. It becomes a viable load out to 250 yards without question. Run the ballistics, and Iam sure you will agree.

Joe
 
#10 ·
Actually, the 350 grain newer technology bullets
in the 45-70 outpenetrated smaller caliber, higher velocity .375 bullets and are great for elk, big bear, etc.
If you want to hear from some actual owners and
hunters from the northwest & Alaska, go over and
visit the marlinowners.com forum.
 
#11 ·
Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
350 grain Northfork FN seated to 2.56" COAL and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Starline brass, 2.095" trim
CCI 200 primer
47 grains H4198 START
51.5 grains H4198 MAXIMUM 2183 fps

http://www.northforkbullets.com/



Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point seated to 2.54" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primers
52 grains Reloder 10 START
58.3 grains Reloder 10 MAXIMUM 2367 fps

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm
 
#12 ·
jackfish said:
Marlin 1895 45-70 22" barrel
300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point seated to 2.54" and crimped with a Lee Factory Crimp Die
Winchester brass, 2.1" trim
CCI 200 primers
52 grains Reloder 10 START
58.3 grains Reloder 10 MAXIMUM 2367 fps

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm
You might also consider the same load, but with 52.4 gr of Reloader 7. 2315fps and perhaps a bit softer on the shoulder. I've heard nothing but great things about this particular load for the 45-70. As far as penetration goes, I think this one will do more than adequately. A couple of elk hunters at MarlinOwners.com rave about this load!
:D
 
#14 ·
Size Doesn't Matter

Terry Koupe said:
All this 45-70 talk got me to thinking: I'm a big T/C G2 fan, and 23inch 45-70 barrel is available. What could I do as far as bullet weight-velocity-pressure for an elkload...deer...caribou...black bear??
.

I was surprised at how little difference barrel length makes in a straighted-walled cartridge like the 45-70. With the above referenced 300 gr Nosler Partition bullet at 2367 fps from a 22" barreled Marlin 1895, the difference in velocity between a 24" barrel and an 18.5" barrel is 87 fps. That's only 16 fps per inch of barrel. I obtained these data utilizing the "Load from a Disk" computer program.

In this case, size doesn't matter.
 
#16 ·
NITRO said:
.

I was surprised at how little difference barrel length makes in a straighted-walled cartridge like the 45-70. With the above referenced 300 gr Nosler Partition bullet at 2367 fps from a 22" barreled Marlin 1895, the difference in velocity between a 24" barrel and an 18.5" barrel is 87 fps. That's only 16 fps per inch of barrel. I obtained these data utilizing the "Load from a Disk" computer program.

In this case, size doesn't matter.
I did a good bit of chrono work between an 18.5" Marlin gg converted to 22" and a 26", 45-70 I have.

Average velocity change due to barrel length was 25fps/in. Got more change from low vel factory loads and less from my handloaded thumpers.
 
#17 · (Edited)
Fremont

That technical jargon is all well, but is it... it is very missleading... I say a picture is worth a 1,000 words, not the stuff that is printed on paper that now with the use of the internet anyone and I mean anyone can sound like a pro-writer.

How can anyone discount this as quoted by Jaycocreek: The 45-70 strikes again


“Hunting in Argentina, I hit my water buffalo (~70 yds.), behind the right shoulder and it blew straight through exiting his left shoulder. He staggered and turned away from me. - I immediately popped him in the tush. As with my 1st shot the “Hammerhead” passed lengthwise through his body and exited his chest. - - “Game Over!” - - {Both 540-grain projectiles were last seen headed towards Patagonia in south Argentina.} Next year I plan to use your Garrett “Hammerheads” in Africa for Cape buffalo and Hippo.”

Bill Hackaday, Dunwoody, GA
Is this considered Dangerous game?How hard are Grizzly and Brown Bears to kill or maybe an Elephant with a 45-70?


From 45 yards the 540 gr. bullet struck the bear broadside in the left shoulder. Breaking the shoulder, going through the rib cage on both sides and breaking the right shoulder, then exiting the bear. This was a devastating blow to a tough animal. The bear made one jump when hit then collapsed dead 18 feet from where he was standing.
How about a charging Grizzly?

"This grizzly was killed in Spatsizi Plateau Wilderness Park in the Eagle Nest Mountain Range of Northern British Columbia. He squared over 8 feet and the skull measured 23 13/16'', which is very good size for an interior mountain grizzly bear. When I shot the bear, he had started a charge from about 70 yards away, and by the time I had a sight on him, he was 40 yards. The 540 Hammerhead hit him right between the front legs, and he did a complete front-wards flip after the bullet hit him. That bullet completely penetrated him lengthwise and exited. I made a follow up shot (which was unnecessary, just instinct) after he rolled which angled through the chest, took out a section of spine, and exited the top of his skull (if you look closely at the photo you can see the exit hole in his head). Very impressive bullet performance."
And this elephant taken by Vince Lupo, using a 45-70


White Rhino


Hippo


I have never met either Vince Lupo or Randy Garrett, but Randy Garrett has quite a bit at stake, if and I say IF he were to fake these trophy pictures... I say it aint ever gonna happen. I have never used one of Randy Garrett's cartridges, and do I plan to... maybe, and then maybe not. Would I have every confidence in the world with it... yes without a doubt. I will also add that I would have the same confidence in Marshall's Beartooth Bullet Pile Drivers as well and since I reload, guess which one I am more than likely to carry in my Marlin 1895G. I have no doubt in my mind what the 525-gr Pile Driver will do.... AS stated, pictures speak a 1,000 words over someones technical jargon that don't mean spit in the real world.

Lupo Safaris

New World Record


I will say also that I have no stake in either ammo made by Randy Garrett or do I even know Vince Lupo, but I will say, that the grand ol 45-70 is still as Grand today as it was 100 plus years ago.
 
#18 ·
4570 loads

sahibdla said:
A 405gr Remingtom JSP launched at 1800fps is still moving 1200fps at 300yds. Now everyone would "oooh" and "ahhh" at a hangun doing 405gr@1200fps, but somehow they don't think it is adequate from a rifle.

Going light with the 45-70 is a mistake.
I agree. One of the finest gun writers and hand gun hunters, Ross Sigfried, used a 375 Gr bullet at 1375 FPS in his custom made .475 revolver for taking some of the biggest game in Afriaca. He always LBT cast bullets for big critters but not so hard as to become brittle if hitting large bones.
A 350 Gr cast bullet will plough right through any large Elk at less than the velocity of a 45-70.
We have become so used to relating high velocity to penetrating power that we forget that bullet weight has more to do with penetration than velocity. A 350 Gr bullet is a very big heavy bullet. Most common African big game rifles barely exceeded 2000Fps. until the last few decades.
 
#20 · (Edited)
For Elk or Moose, I would not use any bullet of less than 350 grains in the .45 calibers! Period! They have a very low S.D. in that caliber. My favorite for the larger game animals is a 400 grain hard cast with a very large meplate as an LBT or Beartooth. As for flat shooting, with a little practice, 400 yards is not any great feat. But the heavier bullets will penetrate through the vitals, where the little 300 grain bullets will not. During our penetration tests a few years back, the 400 grain cast would go completely through about 5 feet of soaked newsprint. My .375 H&H with 300 grainers, only about 30 inches. In the .45-70, the only reason to go to the 500+ grain cast is if your plane is headed to Africa! Good shooting!
 
#21 ·
DJWright said:
But the heavier bullets will penetrate through the vitals, where the little 300 grain bullets will not.
This cannot be attributed to the .458" 300 grain Nosler Partition Protected Point. In tests this bullet at 2200 fps out of a Marlin 1895 45-70 outpenetrated a factory 300 grain .375 H&H round. Sectional density is not the whole story regarding bullet penetration, bullet construction must also be considered.
 
#22 · (Edited)
I agree that it will outpenetrate the .375, as I have the same results in wet newsprint. However, I have also tested the Noslers. The heavier hard cast out penetrates the 300 gr. slug by about twice. If I run the heavier slugs, OR the lighter ones faster, they both penetrate less. Seems about 1,500 fps is about optimum for penetration. The faster they go, the quicker they stop beyond that velocity. I shoot about 30,000 rounds a year with everything from mouse guns thru a .460 Weatherby. Dropped on my head as a baby I guess, but having said that, the 460 does not come close to the the penetration of the .45-70 because of the excessive velocity. I ran a cast bullet business and because of that, have done very extensive testing with everything I could get my hands on. Some of the results were eye opening. Good shootin'
 
#23 ·
I agree that bullet wieght is very importanr for penetration. Hard to argue with some one that shoots that much but a given bullet wieght of the same caliber losing penetration as velocity increases is a new one on me. Bullet construction and shape do make a big difference but if using the same gun and the same bullet and bullet wieght but increase the velocity from 1500 fps to 2600fps I would expect greater penetration from the higher velocity if all else were the same.
Rifeling rate of twist can make a difference because the bullet does have to remain stabilized during penetration for max performance.
Any bullet from 350 to 500 grains traveling at 1500 fps is going to plough through any elk in north america better than any 180 grain bullet at twice the velocity. Heavy bullets are like frieght trains, they don't need to go fast to crush anything in their path.
 
#24 ·
I know it sounds a little odd, but think of it like this. . . .. If you stand in a swimming pool and flatten your hand out, and force it down thru the water at a moderate speed, it will slip thru easily and it's easy to keep it moving . Now raise your hand and slap down as hard as you can, and it will stop quickly and sting. Same concept. Now if you were to take a large cartridge, say like a .458 Lott, or any of the big volumn cases, keep adding bullet weight until it will only do about 1,500 fps; THEN you would have something. It would be too long for anything with a normal length action for the case, but in a long throated single shot, it would be possible. Hmm, .458 Lott and a 900 grain LBT style, hard cast WFN. Sounds like fun. . . . . . .
 
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