I originally wrote the following as a response to the post about the Marlin Model 39 in .32 caliber.
Then I realized that this information would likely be buried. Since it took me years to compile it, for lack of information out there, I decided to place it in a new thread for the benefit of others.
I should have added, and hasten to add now: The Marlin 39 was never made in .32 caliber. It was only made in .22 rimfire.
It is the descendant of the Models 1891 and 1892, which were offered in both .22 and .32 caliber, and the Model 1897, which was only offered in .22 rimfire.
In fact, many of the sights made to fit the Model 39 may also fit the earlier models; the contours and size of the frame changed so very little.
The recently reissued Model 1897 has a frame identical to the current production Model 39. Here, when I speak about the Model 1897, I mean the old, original model that was made from 1897 to 1916.
My own Marlin 1892 is in .32 caliber and has the centerfire firing pin. It will function and fire .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt ammunition.
The Model 1892, when in .32 caliber, was shipped with two firing pins so one could shoot rimfire or centerfire ammunition. When I was given mine, it had the centerfire firing pin.
A company called Weisner's sells firing pins for the Model 1891 and 1892, in either rimfire or center fire. Look them up on the net.
Ammunition notes
Winchester still makes .32 Short Colt centerfire ammunition but it may be hard to find. Expect to pay $20 to $25 for a box of 50 cartridges. The .32 Short Colt still uses the heeled bullet.
Factory .32 Long Colt ammo has not been made since the late 1970s or early 1980s. I picked up a box of late-made Remington .32 Long Colt ammo at a Nevada gun store recently for $35. Considering that the same ammo at gun shows typically brings $50 it was a good deal.
Factory .32 Long Colt, since the early 1900s, uses an undersized bullet with a deep hollow base. Typically, these bullets measure .299 inch.
Considering that most Marlin and Stevens rifles have bores of .308 to .310, that bullet must bump up a full caliber or more to fill the rifling. Good luck!
Accuracy with factory .32 Long Colt ammo and its hollowbased bullet is dismal, usually delivering 6 to 8-inch groups or larger at 25 yards from a benchrest.
Old Western Scrounger sells a box of 50 .32 Short Rimfire cartridges for $32.95. This stuff is made for Navy Arms in Brazil, I believe. Visit the Old Western Scrounger website.
Revolver notes
I've read that accuracy with old revolvers in .32 Long Colt is terrible. One writer reported that his bore measured .314 inch and the .299 inch hollowbased bullet was clearly not gripping the rifling much.
Apparently, factories used the same pistol barrel for the .32 Long Colt as they did for the .32-20 or .32 Smith & Wesson Long, with its larger bullet. Heeled bullets may be the only workable option if you have a revolver.
I have no experience reloading for revolvers in this caliber.
This disparity between bullet size and bore in my rifle is what prompted me to return to the older heeled bullets, which are full sized (.309 to .310 inch) and fill the bore.
I've read that hollowbased bullets work fine when black powder is used, as long as the bullet is very soft lead.
No one offers bullets or moulds for a hollowbased bullet. I'd like to get my hands on some and try them with black powder.
As an alternative, if I get ambitious, I may pull 10 factory hollow-based bullets and replace the smokeless powder with FFFG black powder. But I'm rarely that ambitious.
The Marble's tang sight for the Model 39 will fit my my 1892, as well as the models 1891 and 1897.
By the way, Marble's is still very much in existence, producing fine knives and hatchets as well as a large variety of sights. It produces tang sights for numerous rifles, old and modern. Unlike Lyman, Marble's tang sights are adjustable for windage as well as elevation.
They cost more than the Lyman but they're made of steel and very finely made. I saw one once, on a reproduction 1873 Winchester, and was impressed with the quality of its workmanship. Gotta get one for the Marlin 1892 one of these days.
John Kort:
Thanks very much for the information. I was surprised to learn that the .32 Long Colt, outside lubricated, was manufactured into the 1920s by the factories.
Yes, you must trim cases back if you are to use heeled bullets. This is because the heel of the bullet only enters the case a short distance, perhaps 1/8 of an inch.
This creates an overly long cartridge unless the case is trimmed to compensate.
Some years back, I designed a heeled bullet for the .32 Long Colt, which NEI Moulds of Scappoose, Oregon offered. It was listed as No. 78B. This design had a very long heel, with most of the bullet's body inside the case, so cases did not have to be trimmed back.
Well, it was not a success. Accuracy with that bullet was five shots into a 4 inch circle at 25 yards from a benchrest. Not much to brag about and certainly more than enough to miss the head of a rabbit, grouse or squirrel.
I suspect that long heel destabilizes the bullet somewhat. Anyway, I don't know if that design is offered anymore.
NEI produced an exceptionally well made mould for me and it is in no way its fault. The fault lies in my design, if anything.
Conversely, Hornady .310 lead balls over 2.5 grains of Unique (in a standard length .32 Long Colt case) produced five-shot groups of 1" to 1.5" at 25 yards, from a benchrest.
So, I know my rifle is capable of fine accuracy.
A few years ago I guy in Wyoming sent me some heeled bullets cast from the Lyman/Ideal mould 299153.
Alas, the blocks on his mould did not quite match perfectly and one side of the bullet was slightly higher than the other. But I gave them a try.
Reloading notes
Redding .32 Long Colt dies used.
RCBS No. 10 shell holder fits modern .32 Long Colt cases.
However, this shellholder will not fit Winchester .32 Short Colt cases of recent manufacture. I found that an RCBS No. 23 fits these shorter cases. I haven't loaded many .32 Short cases so all the following information applies to .32 Long Colt.
To trim cases, use a 7mm pilot. The interior diameter of a sized .32 Long Colt case is about .290 inch. A .30 or .32 caliber pilot is to large to enter.
As usual, all cases should be trimmed to length AFTER sizing.
Cases: Remington Peters (R-P) of recent manufacture.
Case length: 0.748 inch
Primer: CCI 500, Standard Pistol primer (not Magnum)
Bullet: Lyman/Ideal 299153 heeled bullet cast of nearly pure lead, 99 grains.
Bullet uncrimped, seated friction tight in case.
Bullet lubricant: Old factory recipe for heeled bullets (see below)
Overall cartridge length: 1.145
I did not chronograph these loads as my chronograph was down that day.
Fired at paper bullseye at a measured 25 yards, from a benchrest. Day was 75 to 80 degrees, light breeze from 6 o'clock (directly behind me). Ten shots fired for each load.
The above doesn't change. Only the following powder and amount are different. I take no responsibilty for these loads in your firearm. They worked fine and safely in mine; they may not in yours. Use these loads at your own risk:
Unique - 1.5 grains --- 2-1/2 inch group. Much unburned powder in barrel. Group shot slightly below point of aim.
Pyrodex P, black powder substitute --- 6.5 grains. 1-1/2 inch group. Bore stayed quite clean. Group shot about 1-1/2 inches above point of aim.
1/2 gr. SR4759 under 8 grs. Goex FFFG --- Wow! First five shots went into 1/2 inch. Then the fouling built up and enlarged the group to 2-1/2 inches. This load would be my choice for hunting small game. You could bring a jointed cleaning rod and patches to clean the bore after every five shots or so, returning it to fine accuracy.
Bullseye --- 1.5 grains. Group 1-1/2 inches wide but 2-1/2 inches high. All bullets impacted slightly to right and above of point of aim. Go figure.
This load burns cleanly but apparently has a great variance in velocity, accounting for the lateral stringing.
W-W 231 --- 1.5 grains. 2 inch group. Much unburned powder in bore. Bullet holes filthy on target, indicating that the bullet carried fouling with it to the target. Even without the chronograph, I could tell this was a very weak load.
About 18 months ago, a fellow owner of a Marlin 1892 reported on the load recommendations sent him by Accurate Arms:
95 grain lead bullet (no specifics)
AA No. 2 - 2.1 grains, 741 fps. MAX 2.3 grs. for 842 fps
AA No. 5 - 3.1 grains, 811 fps MAX 3.4 grs. for 922 fps
I have not tried either of these powders. However, the gentleman reported that my NEI 78B bullet and 3.2 grs. of No. 5 worked great.
Old Time Bullet Lubricant
I found this factory recipe for heeled bullets in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume. I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients, then place them into a quart, widemouthed Mason jar.
Place the jar into 4 or 5 inches of boiling water in a kettle. When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate.
Lubricating heeled bullets
Heeled bullets are not lubricated in a sizer. They are seated into the charged case, as any other regular bullet.
Then, the entire cartridge is turned upside down and the bullet dipped into melted lubricant.
There's a trick to this: As you place the cold bullet in the lubricant, you'll see a ring of surface tension around it. Continue holding the bullet --- right up to where the lead meets the brass case --- upside down in the hot lubricant.
Suddenly, you'll see that ring of surface tension disappear, indicating that the bullet has reached the same temperature as the lubricant. Remove the bullet from the lubricant and stand the cartridge upright on a sheet of waxed paper, to cool.
A clean tuna or pet food can is ideal for lubricating heeled bullets this way. Set the can on a burner at very low heat. When you're finished, remove the can from the heat, let cool, and snap a plastic pet food lid over the can for storage.
Store the jar and can of lubricant in a cool, dry place.
Storage of outside lubricated ammo
Bullets with outside lubrication are messy, no doubt. That's what prompted the factories to offer inside-lubricated bullets, often at the expense of accuracy.
Rather than the paper boxes of yesteryear, today we have many fine plastic boxes that seal well to keep grit and dust out, and retain the natural moisture of the lubricant.
The above lubricant is rather soft, and not very heat resistant, so it's best to store your ammo in a cool, dry place. I keep mine in the spare room.
A backyard shed or garage are the worst places to keep ammo, as temperatures will soar in the summer and plunge in the winter. Such temperature variations play hobs with smokeless powder, but not so much black powder.
Store lubricated ammo bullet-down in a plastic ammo box with a good seal. I use .38 caliber boxes but there may be .32-caliber boxes out there of which I am unaware.
CLEARLY label the contents of the box on a reloading label. This will save much confusion later, when testing loads.
Beware of old data!
Many sources for loading the .32 Long Colt are very old. Often, the cited loads were assembled with the older, balloon head cases that had a greater volume than today's modern, solid-head cases.
Balloon head cases are weaker, and require more smokeless powder than modern, solid head cases to achieve the same velocity. Be very wary of this fact. Some loads listed in old Lyman books and other sources are entirely too strong in today's modern cases.
I'd reduce all old loads by 20 percent, then work up 1/2 grain at a time.
The Marlin Models 1891 and 1892 are not strong. The end of the lever bearing against the bolt is all that keeps the bolt against the cartridge and the action shut. These old rifles cannot take much beyond black powder pressures.
This is not the rifle to "Magnumize" with hot loads. It simply won't take it. It will blow, break or be damaged beyond repair.
I cannot emphasize safety enough.
Well, hope you get some good from this post. It's taken me years to learn all of this. It's far information than was available when I started. I just gave you one heck of a shortcut!
Then I realized that this information would likely be buried. Since it took me years to compile it, for lack of information out there, I decided to place it in a new thread for the benefit of others.
I should have added, and hasten to add now: The Marlin 39 was never made in .32 caliber. It was only made in .22 rimfire.
It is the descendant of the Models 1891 and 1892, which were offered in both .22 and .32 caliber, and the Model 1897, which was only offered in .22 rimfire.
In fact, many of the sights made to fit the Model 39 may also fit the earlier models; the contours and size of the frame changed so very little.
The recently reissued Model 1897 has a frame identical to the current production Model 39. Here, when I speak about the Model 1897, I mean the old, original model that was made from 1897 to 1916.
My own Marlin 1892 is in .32 caliber and has the centerfire firing pin. It will function and fire .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt ammunition.
The Model 1892, when in .32 caliber, was shipped with two firing pins so one could shoot rimfire or centerfire ammunition. When I was given mine, it had the centerfire firing pin.
A company called Weisner's sells firing pins for the Model 1891 and 1892, in either rimfire or center fire. Look them up on the net.
Ammunition notes
Winchester still makes .32 Short Colt centerfire ammunition but it may be hard to find. Expect to pay $20 to $25 for a box of 50 cartridges. The .32 Short Colt still uses the heeled bullet.
Factory .32 Long Colt ammo has not been made since the late 1970s or early 1980s. I picked up a box of late-made Remington .32 Long Colt ammo at a Nevada gun store recently for $35. Considering that the same ammo at gun shows typically brings $50 it was a good deal.
Factory .32 Long Colt, since the early 1900s, uses an undersized bullet with a deep hollow base. Typically, these bullets measure .299 inch.
Considering that most Marlin and Stevens rifles have bores of .308 to .310, that bullet must bump up a full caliber or more to fill the rifling. Good luck!
Accuracy with factory .32 Long Colt ammo and its hollowbased bullet is dismal, usually delivering 6 to 8-inch groups or larger at 25 yards from a benchrest.
Old Western Scrounger sells a box of 50 .32 Short Rimfire cartridges for $32.95. This stuff is made for Navy Arms in Brazil, I believe. Visit the Old Western Scrounger website.
Revolver notes
I've read that accuracy with old revolvers in .32 Long Colt is terrible. One writer reported that his bore measured .314 inch and the .299 inch hollowbased bullet was clearly not gripping the rifling much.
Apparently, factories used the same pistol barrel for the .32 Long Colt as they did for the .32-20 or .32 Smith & Wesson Long, with its larger bullet. Heeled bullets may be the only workable option if you have a revolver.
I have no experience reloading for revolvers in this caliber.
This disparity between bullet size and bore in my rifle is what prompted me to return to the older heeled bullets, which are full sized (.309 to .310 inch) and fill the bore.
I've read that hollowbased bullets work fine when black powder is used, as long as the bullet is very soft lead.
No one offers bullets or moulds for a hollowbased bullet. I'd like to get my hands on some and try them with black powder.
As an alternative, if I get ambitious, I may pull 10 factory hollow-based bullets and replace the smokeless powder with FFFG black powder. But I'm rarely that ambitious.
The Marble's tang sight for the Model 39 will fit my my 1892, as well as the models 1891 and 1897.
By the way, Marble's is still very much in existence, producing fine knives and hatchets as well as a large variety of sights. It produces tang sights for numerous rifles, old and modern. Unlike Lyman, Marble's tang sights are adjustable for windage as well as elevation.
They cost more than the Lyman but they're made of steel and very finely made. I saw one once, on a reproduction 1873 Winchester, and was impressed with the quality of its workmanship. Gotta get one for the Marlin 1892 one of these days.
John Kort:
Thanks very much for the information. I was surprised to learn that the .32 Long Colt, outside lubricated, was manufactured into the 1920s by the factories.
Yes, you must trim cases back if you are to use heeled bullets. This is because the heel of the bullet only enters the case a short distance, perhaps 1/8 of an inch.
This creates an overly long cartridge unless the case is trimmed to compensate.
Some years back, I designed a heeled bullet for the .32 Long Colt, which NEI Moulds of Scappoose, Oregon offered. It was listed as No. 78B. This design had a very long heel, with most of the bullet's body inside the case, so cases did not have to be trimmed back.
Well, it was not a success. Accuracy with that bullet was five shots into a 4 inch circle at 25 yards from a benchrest. Not much to brag about and certainly more than enough to miss the head of a rabbit, grouse or squirrel.
I suspect that long heel destabilizes the bullet somewhat. Anyway, I don't know if that design is offered anymore.
NEI produced an exceptionally well made mould for me and it is in no way its fault. The fault lies in my design, if anything.
Conversely, Hornady .310 lead balls over 2.5 grains of Unique (in a standard length .32 Long Colt case) produced five-shot groups of 1" to 1.5" at 25 yards, from a benchrest.
So, I know my rifle is capable of fine accuracy.
A few years ago I guy in Wyoming sent me some heeled bullets cast from the Lyman/Ideal mould 299153.
Alas, the blocks on his mould did not quite match perfectly and one side of the bullet was slightly higher than the other. But I gave them a try.
Reloading notes
Redding .32 Long Colt dies used.
RCBS No. 10 shell holder fits modern .32 Long Colt cases.
However, this shellholder will not fit Winchester .32 Short Colt cases of recent manufacture. I found that an RCBS No. 23 fits these shorter cases. I haven't loaded many .32 Short cases so all the following information applies to .32 Long Colt.
To trim cases, use a 7mm pilot. The interior diameter of a sized .32 Long Colt case is about .290 inch. A .30 or .32 caliber pilot is to large to enter.
As usual, all cases should be trimmed to length AFTER sizing.
Cases: Remington Peters (R-P) of recent manufacture.
Case length: 0.748 inch
Primer: CCI 500, Standard Pistol primer (not Magnum)
Bullet: Lyman/Ideal 299153 heeled bullet cast of nearly pure lead, 99 grains.
Bullet uncrimped, seated friction tight in case.
Bullet lubricant: Old factory recipe for heeled bullets (see below)
Overall cartridge length: 1.145
I did not chronograph these loads as my chronograph was down that day.
Fired at paper bullseye at a measured 25 yards, from a benchrest. Day was 75 to 80 degrees, light breeze from 6 o'clock (directly behind me). Ten shots fired for each load.
The above doesn't change. Only the following powder and amount are different. I take no responsibilty for these loads in your firearm. They worked fine and safely in mine; they may not in yours. Use these loads at your own risk:
Unique - 1.5 grains --- 2-1/2 inch group. Much unburned powder in barrel. Group shot slightly below point of aim.
Pyrodex P, black powder substitute --- 6.5 grains. 1-1/2 inch group. Bore stayed quite clean. Group shot about 1-1/2 inches above point of aim.
1/2 gr. SR4759 under 8 grs. Goex FFFG --- Wow! First five shots went into 1/2 inch. Then the fouling built up and enlarged the group to 2-1/2 inches. This load would be my choice for hunting small game. You could bring a jointed cleaning rod and patches to clean the bore after every five shots or so, returning it to fine accuracy.
Bullseye --- 1.5 grains. Group 1-1/2 inches wide but 2-1/2 inches high. All bullets impacted slightly to right and above of point of aim. Go figure.
This load burns cleanly but apparently has a great variance in velocity, accounting for the lateral stringing.
W-W 231 --- 1.5 grains. 2 inch group. Much unburned powder in bore. Bullet holes filthy on target, indicating that the bullet carried fouling with it to the target. Even without the chronograph, I could tell this was a very weak load.
About 18 months ago, a fellow owner of a Marlin 1892 reported on the load recommendations sent him by Accurate Arms:
95 grain lead bullet (no specifics)
AA No. 2 - 2.1 grains, 741 fps. MAX 2.3 grs. for 842 fps
AA No. 5 - 3.1 grains, 811 fps MAX 3.4 grs. for 922 fps
I have not tried either of these powders. However, the gentleman reported that my NEI 78B bullet and 3.2 grs. of No. 5 worked great.
Old Time Bullet Lubricant
I found this factory recipe for heeled bullets in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume. I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients, then place them into a quart, widemouthed Mason jar.
Place the jar into 4 or 5 inches of boiling water in a kettle. When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate.
Lubricating heeled bullets
Heeled bullets are not lubricated in a sizer. They are seated into the charged case, as any other regular bullet.
Then, the entire cartridge is turned upside down and the bullet dipped into melted lubricant.
There's a trick to this: As you place the cold bullet in the lubricant, you'll see a ring of surface tension around it. Continue holding the bullet --- right up to where the lead meets the brass case --- upside down in the hot lubricant.
Suddenly, you'll see that ring of surface tension disappear, indicating that the bullet has reached the same temperature as the lubricant. Remove the bullet from the lubricant and stand the cartridge upright on a sheet of waxed paper, to cool.
A clean tuna or pet food can is ideal for lubricating heeled bullets this way. Set the can on a burner at very low heat. When you're finished, remove the can from the heat, let cool, and snap a plastic pet food lid over the can for storage.
Store the jar and can of lubricant in a cool, dry place.
Storage of outside lubricated ammo
Bullets with outside lubrication are messy, no doubt. That's what prompted the factories to offer inside-lubricated bullets, often at the expense of accuracy.
Rather than the paper boxes of yesteryear, today we have many fine plastic boxes that seal well to keep grit and dust out, and retain the natural moisture of the lubricant.
The above lubricant is rather soft, and not very heat resistant, so it's best to store your ammo in a cool, dry place. I keep mine in the spare room.
A backyard shed or garage are the worst places to keep ammo, as temperatures will soar in the summer and plunge in the winter. Such temperature variations play hobs with smokeless powder, but not so much black powder.
Store lubricated ammo bullet-down in a plastic ammo box with a good seal. I use .38 caliber boxes but there may be .32-caliber boxes out there of which I am unaware.
CLEARLY label the contents of the box on a reloading label. This will save much confusion later, when testing loads.
Beware of old data!
Many sources for loading the .32 Long Colt are very old. Often, the cited loads were assembled with the older, balloon head cases that had a greater volume than today's modern, solid-head cases.
Balloon head cases are weaker, and require more smokeless powder than modern, solid head cases to achieve the same velocity. Be very wary of this fact. Some loads listed in old Lyman books and other sources are entirely too strong in today's modern cases.
I'd reduce all old loads by 20 percent, then work up 1/2 grain at a time.
The Marlin Models 1891 and 1892 are not strong. The end of the lever bearing against the bolt is all that keeps the bolt against the cartridge and the action shut. These old rifles cannot take much beyond black powder pressures.
This is not the rifle to "Magnumize" with hot loads. It simply won't take it. It will blow, break or be damaged beyond repair.
I cannot emphasize safety enough.
Well, hope you get some good from this post. It's taken me years to learn all of this. It's far information than was available when I started. I just gave you one heck of a shortcut!