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Marlin Model 1892 --- experiences in reloading

23K views 21 replies 5 participants last post by  John Kort 
#1 ·
I originally wrote the following as a response to the post about the Marlin Model 39 in .32 caliber.
Then I realized that this information would likely be buried. Since it took me years to compile it, for lack of information out there, I decided to place it in a new thread for the benefit of others.

I should have added, and hasten to add now: The Marlin 39 was never made in .32 caliber. It was only made in .22 rimfire.
It is the descendant of the Models 1891 and 1892, which were offered in both .22 and .32 caliber, and the Model 1897, which was only offered in .22 rimfire.
In fact, many of the sights made to fit the Model 39 may also fit the earlier models; the contours and size of the frame changed so very little.
The recently reissued Model 1897 has a frame identical to the current production Model 39. Here, when I speak about the Model 1897, I mean the old, original model that was made from 1897 to 1916.

My own Marlin 1892 is in .32 caliber and has the centerfire firing pin. It will function and fire .32 Short Colt and .32 Long Colt ammunition.
The Model 1892, when in .32 caliber, was shipped with two firing pins so one could shoot rimfire or centerfire ammunition. When I was given mine, it had the centerfire firing pin.
A company called Weisner's sells firing pins for the Model 1891 and 1892, in either rimfire or center fire. Look them up on the net.

Ammunition notes
Winchester still makes .32 Short Colt centerfire ammunition but it may be hard to find. Expect to pay $20 to $25 for a box of 50 cartridges. The .32 Short Colt still uses the heeled bullet.
Factory .32 Long Colt ammo has not been made since the late 1970s or early 1980s. I picked up a box of late-made Remington .32 Long Colt ammo at a Nevada gun store recently for $35. Considering that the same ammo at gun shows typically brings $50 it was a good deal.
Factory .32 Long Colt, since the early 1900s, uses an undersized bullet with a deep hollow base. Typically, these bullets measure .299 inch.
Considering that most Marlin and Stevens rifles have bores of .308 to .310, that bullet must bump up a full caliber or more to fill the rifling. Good luck!
Accuracy with factory .32 Long Colt ammo and its hollowbased bullet is dismal, usually delivering 6 to 8-inch groups or larger at 25 yards from a benchrest.
Old Western Scrounger sells a box of 50 .32 Short Rimfire cartridges for $32.95. This stuff is made for Navy Arms in Brazil, I believe. Visit the Old Western Scrounger website.

Revolver notes
I've read that accuracy with old revolvers in .32 Long Colt is terrible. One writer reported that his bore measured .314 inch and the .299 inch hollowbased bullet was clearly not gripping the rifling much.
Apparently, factories used the same pistol barrel for the .32 Long Colt as they did for the .32-20 or .32 Smith & Wesson Long, with its larger bullet. Heeled bullets may be the only workable option if you have a revolver.
I have no experience reloading for revolvers in this caliber.

This disparity between bullet size and bore in my rifle is what prompted me to return to the older heeled bullets, which are full sized (.309 to .310 inch) and fill the bore.
I've read that hollowbased bullets work fine when black powder is used, as long as the bullet is very soft lead.
No one offers bullets or moulds for a hollowbased bullet. I'd like to get my hands on some and try them with black powder.
As an alternative, if I get ambitious, I may pull 10 factory hollow-based bullets and replace the smokeless powder with FFFG black powder. But I'm rarely that ambitious.

The Marble's tang sight for the Model 39 will fit my my 1892, as well as the models 1891 and 1897.
By the way, Marble's is still very much in existence, producing fine knives and hatchets as well as a large variety of sights. It produces tang sights for numerous rifles, old and modern. Unlike Lyman, Marble's tang sights are adjustable for windage as well as elevation.
They cost more than the Lyman but they're made of steel and very finely made. I saw one once, on a reproduction 1873 Winchester, and was impressed with the quality of its workmanship. Gotta get one for the Marlin 1892 one of these days.

John Kort:
Thanks very much for the information. I was surprised to learn that the .32 Long Colt, outside lubricated, was manufactured into the 1920s by the factories.
Yes, you must trim cases back if you are to use heeled bullets. This is because the heel of the bullet only enters the case a short distance, perhaps 1/8 of an inch.
This creates an overly long cartridge unless the case is trimmed to compensate.

Some years back, I designed a heeled bullet for the .32 Long Colt, which NEI Moulds of Scappoose, Oregon offered. It was listed as No. 78B. This design had a very long heel, with most of the bullet's body inside the case, so cases did not have to be trimmed back.
Well, it was not a success. Accuracy with that bullet was five shots into a 4 inch circle at 25 yards from a benchrest. Not much to brag about and certainly more than enough to miss the head of a rabbit, grouse or squirrel.
I suspect that long heel destabilizes the bullet somewhat. Anyway, I don't know if that design is offered anymore.
NEI produced an exceptionally well made mould for me and it is in no way its fault. The fault lies in my design, if anything.
Conversely, Hornady .310 lead balls over 2.5 grains of Unique (in a standard length .32 Long Colt case) produced five-shot groups of 1" to 1.5" at 25 yards, from a benchrest.
So, I know my rifle is capable of fine accuracy.

A few years ago I guy in Wyoming sent me some heeled bullets cast from the Lyman/Ideal mould 299153.
Alas, the blocks on his mould did not quite match perfectly and one side of the bullet was slightly higher than the other. But I gave them a try.

Reloading notes
Redding .32 Long Colt dies used.
RCBS No. 10 shell holder fits modern .32 Long Colt cases.
However, this shellholder will not fit Winchester .32 Short Colt cases of recent manufacture. I found that an RCBS No. 23 fits these shorter cases. I haven't loaded many .32 Short cases so all the following information applies to .32 Long Colt.

To trim cases, use a 7mm pilot. The interior diameter of a sized .32 Long Colt case is about .290 inch. A .30 or .32 caliber pilot is to large to enter.
As usual, all cases should be trimmed to length AFTER sizing.

Cases: Remington Peters (R-P) of recent manufacture.
Case length: 0.748 inch
Primer: CCI 500, Standard Pistol primer (not Magnum)
Bullet: Lyman/Ideal 299153 heeled bullet cast of nearly pure lead, 99 grains.
Bullet uncrimped, seated friction tight in case.
Bullet lubricant: Old factory recipe for heeled bullets (see below)
Overall cartridge length: 1.145
I did not chronograph these loads as my chronograph was down that day.

Fired at paper bullseye at a measured 25 yards, from a benchrest. Day was 75 to 80 degrees, light breeze from 6 o'clock (directly behind me). Ten shots fired for each load.

The above doesn't change. Only the following powder and amount are different. I take no responsibilty for these loads in your firearm. They worked fine and safely in mine; they may not in yours. Use these loads at your own risk:

Unique - 1.5 grains --- 2-1/2 inch group. Much unburned powder in barrel. Group shot slightly below point of aim.

Pyrodex P, black powder substitute --- 6.5 grains. 1-1/2 inch group. Bore stayed quite clean. Group shot about 1-1/2 inches above point of aim.

1/2 gr. SR4759 under 8 grs. Goex FFFG --- Wow! First five shots went into 1/2 inch. Then the fouling built up and enlarged the group to 2-1/2 inches. This load would be my choice for hunting small game. You could bring a jointed cleaning rod and patches to clean the bore after every five shots or so, returning it to fine accuracy.

Bullseye --- 1.5 grains. Group 1-1/2 inches wide but 2-1/2 inches high. All bullets impacted slightly to right and above of point of aim. Go figure.
This load burns cleanly but apparently has a great variance in velocity, accounting for the lateral stringing.

W-W 231 --- 1.5 grains. 2 inch group. Much unburned powder in bore. Bullet holes filthy on target, indicating that the bullet carried fouling with it to the target. Even without the chronograph, I could tell this was a very weak load.

About 18 months ago, a fellow owner of a Marlin 1892 reported on the load recommendations sent him by Accurate Arms:
95 grain lead bullet (no specifics)
AA No. 2 - 2.1 grains, 741 fps. MAX 2.3 grs. for 842 fps
AA No. 5 - 3.1 grains, 811 fps MAX 3.4 grs. for 922 fps

I have not tried either of these powders. However, the gentleman reported that my NEI 78B bullet and 3.2 grs. of No. 5 worked great.

Old Time Bullet Lubricant
I found this factory recipe for heeled bullets in a 1943 American Rifleman magazine:
1 part canning paraffin
1 part mutton tallow (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
1/2 part beeswax
All measurements are by weight, not volume. I use a kitchen scale to measure 200/200/100 grams of ingredients, then place them into a quart, widemouthed Mason jar.
Place the jar into 4 or 5 inches of boiling water in a kettle. When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable chopstick. Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the refrigerator may cause the ingredients to separate.

Lubricating heeled bullets
Heeled bullets are not lubricated in a sizer. They are seated into the charged case, as any other regular bullet.
Then, the entire cartridge is turned upside down and the bullet dipped into melted lubricant.
There's a trick to this: As you place the cold bullet in the lubricant, you'll see a ring of surface tension around it. Continue holding the bullet --- right up to where the lead meets the brass case --- upside down in the hot lubricant.
Suddenly, you'll see that ring of surface tension disappear, indicating that the bullet has reached the same temperature as the lubricant. Remove the bullet from the lubricant and stand the cartridge upright on a sheet of waxed paper, to cool.
A clean tuna or pet food can is ideal for lubricating heeled bullets this way. Set the can on a burner at very low heat. When you're finished, remove the can from the heat, let cool, and snap a plastic pet food lid over the can for storage.
Store the jar and can of lubricant in a cool, dry place.

Storage of outside lubricated ammo
Bullets with outside lubrication are messy, no doubt. That's what prompted the factories to offer inside-lubricated bullets, often at the expense of accuracy.
Rather than the paper boxes of yesteryear, today we have many fine plastic boxes that seal well to keep grit and dust out, and retain the natural moisture of the lubricant.
The above lubricant is rather soft, and not very heat resistant, so it's best to store your ammo in a cool, dry place. I keep mine in the spare room.
A backyard shed or garage are the worst places to keep ammo, as temperatures will soar in the summer and plunge in the winter. Such temperature variations play hobs with smokeless powder, but not so much black powder.

Store lubricated ammo bullet-down in a plastic ammo box with a good seal. I use .38 caliber boxes but there may be .32-caliber boxes out there of which I am unaware.
CLEARLY label the contents of the box on a reloading label. This will save much confusion later, when testing loads.

Beware of old data!
Many sources for loading the .32 Long Colt are very old. Often, the cited loads were assembled with the older, balloon head cases that had a greater volume than today's modern, solid-head cases.
Balloon head cases are weaker, and require more smokeless powder than modern, solid head cases to achieve the same velocity. Be very wary of this fact. Some loads listed in old Lyman books and other sources are entirely too strong in today's modern cases.
I'd reduce all old loads by 20 percent, then work up 1/2 grain at a time.
The Marlin Models 1891 and 1892 are not strong. The end of the lever bearing against the bolt is all that keeps the bolt against the cartridge and the action shut. These old rifles cannot take much beyond black powder pressures.
This is not the rifle to "Magnumize" with hot loads. It simply won't take it. It will blow, break or be damaged beyond repair.
I cannot emphasize safety enough.

Well, hope you get some good from this post. It's taken me years to learn all of this. It's far information than was available when I started. I just gave you one heck of a shortcut!
 
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#2 ·
Gatofeo,

Many thanks for the very informative article on your experiences with your '92 Marlin .32 Rifle. Hopefully, other owners of this rifle will greatly appreciate the information that you have presented. I have added this really neat rifle to my "want" list, but for now I'll have to be content using my .30 W.C.F. auxiliary cartridge (1901) which uses .32 S&W ammunition in my .30-30's. I do have an Ideal reloading tool for that cartridge that has the 313226 bullet.

BULLETS:
I’ve always had an interest in the smaller pistol cartridges and the historic bullet designs of yesteryear. The heeled .32 bullets are very intriguing. Hopefully your recently purchased Ideal tool with the 299153 bullet will provide some good round bullets capable of fine accuracy. Please keep us informed.

It is interesting that the .32 Long Colt I.L. smokeless cartridges gave very large groups at 25 yards. As you said though, black powder would upset them more which could mean more accurate shooting. I have some original .32 Long Rifle cartridges coming from a cartridge collector. I would be happy to pull 10 bullets and send them to you for testing with b.p. It would be both historic and interesting to see the difference.

Your idea of using a longer heel and a shorter bearing surface in order to use the standard .32 Long Colt cases when designing your bullet by NEI is certainly very innovative. The problem with inaccuracy, I strongly suspect, is that the heel of the bullet is smaller in diameter than the bore, allowing the bullet to yaw in the barrel. This can easily be checked by placing the heel of the bullet into the bore of the rifle. If it does fit with some resistance, it could be that the diameter is being reduced by the constriction of the sized case neck if the alloy is too soft. If that is the case, it would be worthwhile to try a harder alloy.

If the heel is undersized as cast, I would bump them up to fit in an unsized case and try shooting them that way first to see what happens. You could use a lubrisizer to do this or you could make a stop by cutting a rod to fit inside a fired case so that the base of the bullet stops against it when it is about .06-.09 inside the case mouth.. Then use your seating die to provide pressure on the bullet nose just enough to upset the bullet to the right fit.

If that works, and good accuracy is the result since you are providing good support for the bullet, you could have a machinist open up the heel in your mold to the dimension that you require. The downside is that the larger heel required to fit the bore dimension of your rifle may not fit the case, or, it might fit well enough in your fired cases so that no case resizing would be necessary.

Then again, perhaps a pure lead bullet made from your NEI mold and a charge of black powder would be enough to upset the heel to ride the bore diameter, thus giving accurate shooting until barrel fouling required cleaning to restore accuracy. Food for thought, anyway.

POWDERS:
Historically speaking, the earliest smokeless loading used 4 grs. of DuPont No. 2 bulk smokeless which was also used in many other cartridges up to and including the .44-40 in the late 1800’s - early 1900‘s.

The earliest reference that I can find to a smokeless powder that is still in production today is in the 1903 Ideal handbook. Laflin & Rand had a chart in this handbook which recommended 2.0 grs. of Bullseye. A 1927 Hercules Powder Pamphlet also shows the same 2.0 gr. charge of Bullseye for the .32 Long Colt. No velocity is indicated, but by the late 1920’s the velocity for 2.0 grs. of Bullseye in the .32 Long Colt was listed at 700 f.p.s. with the 90 gr. 299153 bullet, and 815 f.p.s. with the 80 gr. inside lubricated 299155 bullet. These velocities were taken in pistol length barrels. By that time, .32 Long Colt data for the now obsolete RSQ, DuPont No.5 and SR80 smokeless powders also appeared in the loading manuals.

By the late 1940’s, the .32 Long Colt disappeared from the Ideal reloading handbooks and in it’s place was the .32 S&W Long. Using a 98 gr. bullet they show a higher load of 2.7 grs. of Bullseye giving 910 f.p.s. in a pistol barrel. Unique is shown at 4.3 grs. for 1,010 f.p.s. As you said, these loads would be too much for the .32 Long Colt in the ‘92 Marlin.

Today there are 3 reloading manuals that give velocities AND pressure data for the .32 S&W Long.
Winchester - 98 gr. Lead - no barrel length indicated
231 - 2.4 grs. / 765 f.p.s. / 11,000 cup

Hodgdon’s Data Manual 27 shows the following in a 5.32“ barrel:
90 gr. Lead Hornady SWC
HP38 (same as W231) - 2.3 / 678 / 8,400 cup / max - 2.6 / 766 / 10,500 cup
Universal - 2.6 / 676 / 7,500 cup / max - 2.9 / 838 / 11,200 cup
Titegroup - 2.0 / 665 / 8,200 cup / max - 2.3 / 749 / 10,000 cup

Accurate Arms - 90 gr. Lead Hornady SWC - 6“ Barrel
No.2 -1.8 / 692 / max. - 2.3 / 842 / 10,800 cup
No.5 - 3.1 / 811 / max. - 3.5 / 922 / 12,000 cup

Based on the above data, you could increase your charge of 231 safely which might lead to better accuracy.

Glad to see that you had good results with Pyrodex. I have found that it continues to give accurate shooting in my 1873’s .44 W.C.F. pitted bore for many, many rounds since it’s fouling doesn’t build up like b.p.

With regards to b.p. you might want to try increasing to 1.0 gr. of 4759 or 4227 under your b.p. charge. I have found that by reducing a b.p. charge 20% and adding 10% of 4227 as a starter, velocity was the same as straight b.p. in the .44-40. (4grs. / 4227 + 32 grs. FFG = 40 grs. B.P.). That greatly reduced the fouling for many more accurate shots than straight b.p.

Thank you again for a great article. Please keep us posted on you adventures with your classic ‘92 Marlin.
If you would like to try some hollow based bullets over b.p. please let me know.

Sincerely,
John
 
#3 ·
A generous offer to send 10, factory hollow based bullets to me but unnecessary.
I have three full boxes of .32 Long Colt ammo, made by Remington in the late 1970s or early 1980s. These cartridges are loaded with the hollowbased bullet.
I intend to put them on my Saeco Bullet Hardness Tester, but I suspect they're very soft lead. Seems that way with my thumbnail.
I'll pull 10 bullets, dump out the smokeless powder, then reload them over FFFG black powder. Typically, these bullets have very little lubricant so I'll invert them and dip the bullets in melted lubricant up to the case.
As an alternative or addition, I could fill the hollow base with lubricant and seat the bullet over a sheet of wax paper, punching a thin wad of wax under the bullet as it gets seated. I did this many years ago with the .45 Colt over black powder. The extra lubricant in the base sure kept fouling soft but the disk of wax paper kept it from dampening the powder.
Some people have loaded a greased, felt wad or thick waxed paper disk under a hollowbased bullet.
I suspect that anything more than wax paper will prevent the hollow base from swelling properly under pressure. I know that greased felt wads under a hollowbased bullet tend to be rammed up in the hollow. This probably affects the bullet base, which is a key factor in accuracy in old and modern arms.
So, I'll stick with the thin wax paper and avoid anything heavier. I figure the wax paper will be consumed quickly.
My chronograph is down (put a .380 ACP bullet through it a while back :D ) but I'll try to get another chronograph before I fire these loads.
I've read a fair amount on the .41 Colt, and experimented with the .32 Long Colt. From all I've read, the indication is that hollowbased bullets work best over black powder, but only if they're soft lead.
Aye, there's the rub.
Time to break out the lead hardness tester and see if those factory, hollowbase bullets qualify.
 
#4 ·
Gatofeo,

It will be interesting to see what your results will be with the b.p. cartridges.... like stepping back in time.

One would have to wonder why the factories continued to offer the inside lubricated smokeless cartridges if the accuracy was not that great. Perhaps they felt that the .32 Colt Pistol would be used at short range and accuracy did not matter all that much(?).

I have found that in my .44 W.C.F. 1873 Winchester, flat based bullets with no hollow base made from lead and even lead with 2% tin added will bump up from .427" to fill my rifle's .433" oversized groove diameter with 40 grs. of b.p. and give accurate shooting.

It would be interesting to see if your NEI plain based bullet made from soft alloy would also bump up with a charge of b.p. I think there is a good chance that it would if you should give it a try.

Sincerely,
John
 
#5 ·
Accurate Heel Bullets (.53" @ 50 ft.)

ACCURATE HEEL BULLETS! .53" @ 50 ft.

Gatofeo,

Your description of your bullet design to be used in the .32 Long case sounded intriguing to me. It is still shown on the NEI website, so I was able to take a look at it.

It looks like a great design and I sincerely believe that you would see a big accuracy improvement if the bore riding heel was the same or .001-.002" larger than the bore diameter of your rifle.

I decided to run an experiment today by taking my 100 gr. RCBS cast bullets which have 3 driving bands, and cut the back 2 bands to .302" in my lathe, making it a heel type bullet.

This bullet looks similar to Lyman's 311227 http://missoula.bigsky.net/western/cbip/b311227.html
except that it has a flat nose. The forward driving band was left at .311" or .001" over the groove diameter. Bullet alloy was w.w. + 2% tin.

I used a lee collet die to reduce the necks of .30-30 cases to hold the .302" diameter heel and loaded enough 231 to achieve 1,000-1,100 f.p.s., the estimated velocity range of the .32 Colt cartridge in the '92 Marlin rifle.

The test rifle was my '94 .30-30 carbine which has a .301" bore diameter. The heel on the bullet would be a .001" interference fit. The outside weather was not cooperative so I used my club's 50' indoor range. The results turned out to be better than I expected. 5 rounds produced a nice cluster of .53".

If the bore of your rifle is .302" or less, I would like to send you 10 of these modified bullets to try in your rifle to see if the .302" heel will make a difference. If your bore diameter is larger, I can machine the bullet heel to suit for tryout.

If you would like some to try, email your address w30wcf@erieonline.com and I will be happy to forward them to you. If they are accurate, I could modify the heel diameter of your NEI mold to the same dimension.

Lacking a nice '92 Marlin (I'm keeping my eye out for one with a good bore) I am converting a .30 W.C.F. auxiliary chamber (a cartridge adapter pat'd. in 1899) from .32 S&W to .32 Colt to test the vintage .32 Colt cartridges I have coming. It should be interesting!

Sincerely,
John
 
#6 ·
Okay, send me some of those bullets. I'll see how they work in my Marlin 92.
I think you're onto something with your theory about my bullet design: that the long heel tips in the bore as it travels down it.
Just last week I received an old Ideal reloading tool, with a bullet mould on the end, for .32 Long Colt. I purchased it off Ebay for $50.
The tool is the tong type and is nickel plated.
The bullet cavity is pristine: no rust, pitting or burrs. No damage at all. I hope to cast some bullets with this mould this weekend (after I've waddled off my turkey dinner ...<burp>).
This will provide me with an original design heeled bullet and I'll be able to see what the ol' Marlin 92 can do.

Incidentally, the bore on my Marlin 92 is new. When it was given to me, there was a widening in the bore about five inches back of the muzzle. I suspect that long ago, it was fired with an obstruction in the bore.
This ruined it for any accuracy. I could barely keep factory, hollowbased ammo on a 9" paper plate at 25 yards from a benchrest.
About six years ago, I noticed that Numrich arms still sold factory original barrels for the Marlin 92, but they were round. My old rifle had an octagon barrel.
What to do? I wanted to keep the octagon barrel. I searched long and hard but couldn't find an octagon barrel.
Then a gunsmith suggested that I purchase a round barrel from Numrich, longer than my octagon barrel. I did. He bored out my octagon barrel, turned down the longer, round barrel on his lathe and made it a liner.
Then he sweated the liner into place. It worked like a dream. I kept the original look of the old rifle but got a new bore from it.
A barrel longer than the original is necessary, so the gunsmith has enough left over at each end for his lathe to purchase.
I have a very nice Winchester Model 94 in 30 WCF made in 1899. It's the full length rifle and the takedown model to boot! It was reblued years before I got it, and the wood refinished, by someone who did an exceptional job. However, it's lost a lot of value as a collectible because of the refinishing.
Alas, it's bore is badly pitted and looks like a gopher hole. I'm thinking of having the barrel relined the same way. It will keep the exterior original yet give me a new bore.
Anyway, I'm still pondering whether to do that.

I'd very much like to try your bullets. I'll leave you my address in the private section.
I'd like to get the little Marlin up and running regularly. The recent purchase of this old mould, with its heeled bullet, will do much to get the old Marlin speaking again.
Thanks for your generous offer to send some bullets. I look forward to receiving them.
 
#7 ·
Lee Liquid Alox?

Gentlemen:

Have either of you tried Lee Liquid Alox bullet lube for your outside lubed/heeled bullets? With smokeless loads this should do the trick without the low melting temperature of the old style/homemade lubes.

I use the Lee lube to double lube Remington LSWC bullets for the .38 Spl. Reloads with just the factory lube showed leading in the last inch of a 4 inch barrel with a low end +P load of 3.8 grains of Red Dot. Using the Lee tumble lube ended the leading problem immediately. This lube dries to a semi-hard varnish finish and might help with outside lubed bullets also.

Good luck with your project.

Ralph
 
#8 · (Edited)
Original U.M.C. / W.R.A. CO. .32 L.C.F. Cartridges

Gatofeo.

Sounds like you have really done a lot of work to restore that historic '92 Marlin's barrel to "new" status. Hopefully with your new mold/tool, you will see nice groups as a result of your work. Too bad about the bore on your '94 Win. .30 W.C.F. No doubt the result of someone firing the early .30 W.C.F. cartridges with mercuric priming and not cleaning the barrel thereafter. Hopefully, you will follow the same route to restore that fine old firearm's bore to "new" status.

I rec'd the cartridges I ordered from a cartridge collector and had modified my .30 W.C.F. auxiliary chamber to fire the .32 Colt cartridges. I used my Marlin 336A which has a 24" barrel to get '92 Marlin equivalent velocity readings.

Please bear in mind that from an accuracy standpoint, the bullets had to jump over 1" to reach the rifling so accuracy, although not too bad would have been better in a '92 Marlin.

ORIGINAL .32 L.C.F. HEADSTAMPED CARTRIDGES
(long center fire) I dissected these original cartridges to determine the powder and charge used. I replaced the mercuric primers with Remington 1 1/2's (unless otherwise noted) and relubed the bullets with SPG before firing them. (number fired)

Groups were fired @ 25 yards

W.R.A. CO. - 88 gr. bullets - outside lubricated
> 12 grs. b.p. (looks like 2F)- 1,001 f.p.s. (2)
> 4.0 grs. DuPont No. 2 bulk smokeless - 980 f.p.s. (3)
accuracy for both 2" @ 25 yards

U.M.C. - 83 gr. hollow based - inside lubricated
>10 grs. fine b.p. (looks like 3F) - 1,031 f.p.s. (5)
accuracy 2 1/4"
>2.5 grs. smokeless (type ?) - 1,016 f.p.s. (5)
accuracy 2 5/16"

Reloaded U.M.C. cases - 83 gr. hollow based
> 10 grs. Swiss 3F - 1,117 f.p.s. (3)
accuracy 2.9"
> 2.7 grs. 231 - 1,063 f.p.s. (4)
accuracy 1.3"

Reloaded U.M.C. cases - 90 gr. Hornady SWCbase resized to .301"/ forward diameter .310"
> 2.4 grs. 231 - 947 f.p.s. (5)
accuracy 2 1/4"

Reloaded U.M.C. cases - 98 gr. RCBS 2 base bands reduced to .302" / forward band .311"
> 11 grs. Swiss 3F- 1,053 f.p.s. (3)
accuracy 1.28" (after 13 b.p. rounds fired - no cleaning)
> 2.4 grs. 231 - 871 f.p.s. (5) WSP primer - load from Winchester data showing 765 f.p.s. in the 32 S&W long - barrel length not specified
accuracy 1.30"
> 3.3 Accurate No. 5 - 822 f.p.s. (3) Federal 100 primer - accuracy .82"

All in all I was pleased with the results. No data was published by Marlin or U.M.C. that I could find, showing velocities of the .32 Long in a rifle length barrel. It was like stepping back in time firing the original U.M.C. (1886-1911) and W.R.A. Co. (1886-1930) headstamped cartridges.

Interestingly, accuracy wasn't too bad with the hollow based bullets in these cartridges with either b.p. or smokeless. The 2.5 grs. of the smokeless powder used in the U.M.C. factory cartridges did upset the bullets. Obviously, later loaded hollow based bullets in R-P headstamped cartridges don't do nearly as well in your experience.

The modified RCBS bullet gave good accuracy with the base bands at .001" over the bore diameter. It will be interesting to see how they perform in your rifle.

Cartridge history sure is interesting!

Sincerely,
John
 
#9 ·
Ralph:
I'm ahead of you. :D When I assemble smokeless powder loads with a heeled bullet, I upend the cartridge and dip the bullet --- up to where it meets the case --- in Lee Liquid Alox. Been doing this for quite some time and it's worked well.
I don't want to tumble-lubricate the bullets because I don't want the heel of the bullet to be lubricated. It may not stay friction-tight in the case, as needed.
Lead has a certain amount of cohesiveness to it, when in a brass case. I'll take all I can get.

I've been writing a rough draft article about restoring the little Marlin 92, and reloading for it, to which I add more information on occasion. At the moment, it's over 8,000 words! I'll have to pare it down for magazine publication but in its present form it keeps all the information together for me.

John Kort:
Thank you very much for the reloading info. As you know, it's difficult to find. Using vintage components is an interesting practice.
Tell me, though. Are the old cases you used solid-head or balloon head? Balloon head cases would have more powder capacity.
Greater capacity wouldn't matter with smokeless powder but it would with black, especially on such a small case.

Somewhere in my vast collection of American Rifleman, Rifle and Handloader magazines I believe I have a reference to velocities for the .32 Long Colt from a rifle barrel. It would be from either a Marlin or a Stevens single-shot.

The reloading of that hollow-based factory bullet shows it to be an accurate bullet. That's rather a surprise. Factory ammo with the hollowbased, undersized bullet hasn't proven to be very accurate in my Marlin: 4 inch groups or so at 25 yards from a benchrest.
This is with both Remington and Winchester .32 Long Colt ammo, made within the past 30 years or so. Factory ammo for the .32 Long Colt stopped in the late 1970s or early 1980s, near as I can tell.
Winchester still makes .32 Short Colt ammo, with a heeled bullet, that may be used in any .32 Long Colt chamber. A word, though: Winchester packages its 32 Long Colt ammo in a plastic box with a hard foam insert containing holes for each cartridge.
Because the .32 Short bullet is out-side lubricant, much of the bullet lubricant is wiped off when the cartridge is pulled from this hard foam block.
I'd suggest that, should you find .32 Short Colt cartridges in such a block, you remove them. Then, relubricate by dipping the bullet in Lee Liquid Alox. Stand the cartridges base down on a sheet of waxed paper and allow to dry overnight. Then repackage into a plastic cartridge box such as MTM.
The bullet needs all the lubricant it can get for that long trip down the rifle bore. In revolvers it probably wouldn't matter.
I noticed, when shooting my Marlin with its 24-inch barrel, that accuracy was not as good if I used the cartridges fresh from the Winchester foam box.
I had a little pill container of grease in my shooting box, so I liberally smeared the bullet with that, then single-loaded each cartridge. Accuracy was markedly improved, going from a 5" group to a 2" or 3" group.
I'm sure accuracy could be better. The day I fired this was cold, windy and my glasses kept fogging. This was some years ago but it pointed out the need for ample lubrication on heeled bullets.
I have some .38 Long Colt, .38 Rimfire and .41 Rimfire cartridges in my collection --- all outside lubricated --- that show very little evidence of lubricant on them. Over time, the lubricant dries and flakes off.
Keep an outside lubricated bullet well-lubricated goes a long way toward getting an accurate load.

Incidentally, some years ago I melted some of that newer, hard lubricant currently favored for bullets. I think it was Red Rooster or something like that.
I dipped my heeled bullet in that, after the bullet had been seated in a case.
It was a dismal failure. The harder lubricant, when dry, simply cracks and falls off the bullet, leaving it naked. You need a lubricant with a bit of tackiness, to stay on the outside lubricated bullet. Beeswax provides that tackiness.
For smokeless powder, I'd suggest a lubricant such as Lee Liquid Alox or any traditional Alox and beeswax blend.
For black powder, I'd suggest SPG, Lyman Black Powder Gold or the old, original factory recipe for outside lubricated bullets:
10 pounds paraffin
10 pounds tallow
5 pounds beeswax

I've modified the above recipe and, using a kitchen scale, reduced the amounts to:

Canning paraffin: 200 grams
Mutton tallow: 200 grams (sold by Dixie Gun Works)
Beeswax: 100 grams

This is goes into a quart, widemouth Mason jar. The jar is placed in a pot with 4 inches or so of boiling water. When all ingredients are melted, stir well with a clean stick or disposable shopstick.
Allow to cool at room temperature. Hastening cooling by placing in the fridge may cause the ingredients to separate.
This creates a lubricant so very close to SPG that many will assume it is just that. However, it's much cheaper and just as good, if not better. I use this for all black powder applications: felt wads for cap and ball revolvers, patches, bullets, etc.

When I lubricate heeled bullets, after they've been seated in the case, I put some lubricant in a clean tuna or cat food can. Then I heat it to where it melts, but doesn't cook.
The cartridge is up-ended, then the bullet held in the lubricant right up to where it meets the brass case.
You'll see a ring of surface tension while doing this. When the surface tension suddenly snaps and is gone, remove the bullet. This tells you that the bullet has reached lubricant temperature.
Remove it before this and you'll get a big glob of lubricant on the bullet. No problem, however: simply return the globby bullet to the lubricant and hold it in there a little longer.

Well, I'm at work and I need to run off. Thanks for your information. I'll print it out and add it to my files.
Adios!
 
#10 ·
Gatofeo,

Yes, the U.M.C. & Rem-Umc were of the solid head button pocket type as were the W.R.A. CO's.

In a comparison between them and the modern R-P .32 Long Colt cases, the U.M.C. / Rem-Umc held 11 grs. of Swiss 3F as compared to 10 grs. in the R-P case under the .25" long heel of the modified RCBS bullet at .06" powder compression.

Note: The lot of Swiss B.P. I have is 10% denser than my lot Goex. Using my Goex, the powder charges would be 10 grs. / 9 grs.

Winchester used a compression of .15" in their 12 gr. load of b.p. under a 88 gr. bullet.

In comparing the case capacities to the current .32 S&W Long, on which the modern smokeless data is based,
I found that the U.M.C. / Rem-Umc cases had the same capacity under a bullet seated .30" deep as the current, solid head .32 S&W Long case.

A bullet seating depth of .25" in a R-P .32 Long case gives the same case capacity of a bullet seated .30" deep in the .32 S&W Long and was the seating depth used in the Hodgdon and Accurate data for the 90 gr. Hornady bullet in the .32 S&W Long.

Thank you for the "heads up" regarding the .32 Short Colt ammunition and the additional info regarding bullet lubrication.

Sincerely,
John
 
#11 ·
.32 Colt Rifle Factory Published Velocities

I was looking through some of my reference material and came across some early published velocities for factory .32 Colt ammunition in rifles.

The following data was for the .32 Long Colt, rim fire. Center fire cartridges would give similar velocities.

1932 Shooters Bible
Black Powder - 90 gr. bullet - 1,075 f.p.s.

1941 Winchester Ammunition Guide
1954 Western Handbook

Smokeless Powder - 90 gr. bullet - 945 f.p.s.
100 yard vlocity......................... - 850 f.p.s.
mid range trajectory .....................5.3"

As we can see, the smokeless powder loading lags behind the b.p. velocity. As far as I can tell from dissecting factory cartridges, faster burning smokeless powder was used.

By going to slower powders like Blue Dot, 2400 and 4227, black powder velocities should be able to be achieved at the same or less pressure, just as they are in the .32-20, .38-40 & .44-40.

Hopefully, I'll have the chance to try this between Christmas & New Years ........ if the weather cooperates.

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
John
 
#12 · (Edited)
im sorry, but am i missing something?..i have a nice marlin model 92, in .32 aswell, and i have allways shot .32 S&W short in it. the bore in this rifle is mint, as im sure it was never shot before i got it.
Anyways, with the standard over the counter 32 S&W short,. this lil gun will shoot a 5 shot clover leaf at 50 yards.
I know that the 32 S&W long is a bit to powerfull for it, but why not use that brass to load with?. i have a 100 grain bullet that is .313 that was originally ment for the 32-20, that works perfectly in this lil gun. i load 1.2 grains of bullseye, for around 700 fps. a fun lil load, and deadly acurate, for gophers.heres a pic. LtoR , 32 colt, 32 S&W, my load


anyways, just my 2 cents worth.
Brian
 
#13 ·
Brian,

Thank you for the picture and the info. If you are able to shoot .32 S&W's in your Marlin, somewhere in it's life it has been rechambered.

The case diameter of the .32 Colt is about .315" as compared to the .32 S&W which is larger in diameter.

The .32 Colt uses heeled bullets like the .22 L.R. where the O.D. of the case and the bullets are close to the same. The .32 S&W's larger case diameter allows the use of standard bullets as you described.

What can be somewhat confusing is the .32 Colt New Police. It is different than the .32 Colt even though it has .32 Colt in its name. It actually is the same cartridge as the .32 S&W.

The .32 S&W is a neat cartridge with reloading components readily available. Not so the .32 Long Colt. No reloading components are currently available for it. One would have to find an obsolete bullet mold or acquire an NEI mold with the bullet that was designed by Gatafeo.

The thought occured to me about having my '92 Marlin rechambered for the .32 S&W, but I prefer to leave it in its original chambering.......at least for the forseeable future.

Sincerely,
John
 
#14 ·
well, that is entirely possible that the chambre was reamed, as i dont know the history of the rifle ,before i got it.
i hesitated to mention, that i also discovered that it will function and shoot .32ACP perfectly aswell. never did put any of that over the crony ether. i dont do that to often, as the FMJ bullets are way to hard on the bore. i have however used 32 ACP brass, to make up ammo.
I have never miked any 32 short colt ether, i will have to and just from my pic there, it looks thinner.
Anyways, food for thought, i really enjoy the lil gun, and if i was haveing a hard time loading for it, i wouldnt hesitate to change the chambre. it will even function with the 32 S&W long,so, i can use that brass to
Brian
 
#15 ·
Max Power: I concur with John Kort. Somewhere along the line that rifle's been rechambered.
I have my Marlin 92 right and just tried to chamber a .32 Short and .32 Auto. Won't take either one.
But if you're happy with it, no worries.
However, I'd be mighty careful about the loads you use in it. Factory loads with lead bullets should be fine. I wouldn't exceed factory pressures, however, if you reload.
The Marlin 92 is not a strong action. The lever pivots on its attaching screw and, when closed, bears against a ledge in the bolt. That's ALL that keeps the bolt closed.
It works fine for black powder loads or their pressure-equivalent.
As you wisely noted, I'd steer clear of jacketed bullets. They generate higher pressures, all things equal, than lead bullets.
I don't know if jacketed bullets will wear that bore out significantly faster than jacketed ones.
Some years ago I read of a torture test of two identical .38 Specials. One shot lead factory loads, the other jacketed factory loads.
As I recall, the barrel was obviously worn in 10,000 rounds, whereas the barrel using lead bullets showed no wear. It was estimated that you'd have to fire at least 100,000 lead bullets through it to measure wear.
But even 10,000 rounds would be a lot in the old Marlin. Still, I'd avoid them. Maybe they'd do for an occasional shot at a grouse or rabbit for the pot, where you didn't want meat damage.
 
#16 · (Edited)
yes, just had a look at the chambre, and it has definatly been worked on. good job whoever did it.
i put a 32 short colt in it, and touched off a round, case was terribly buldged at the front after.
yes, i load for it, and use 1.2 grains of bullseye with the lil 100 grain bullet. gives me right around the 700 FPS mark, which is under factory speed.
anyways, this has been a very informative board for me, spent a few hours tonight reading.
anyways, just incase anyone is interested, hear is another pic of some .32s. i am a sorta collector of cartridges aswell.
L toR: long rimfire,short colt,long colt,S&W,S&W reload,and a somewhat rare UMC S&W shot cartridge, ACP

Brian
 
#17 · (Edited)
Max Power,

It is certainly safe to use factory .32 S&W Long's in your rifle and equivalent handloads. The .32 S&W Long has a SAMMI MAP (max. average pressure) of 12,000 CUP.

I have shot a number of different loads in my Marlin 1892
since acquiring it about a year ago.

I use 93 gr. bullets (Lyman 311244 & 311245) made from w.w.+ 2% tin and use a special sizing die to reduce the back driving band to .305". That diameter fits nicely into a .32 Long Colt fired case neck.

In the .32 S&W Long, Hodgdon shows a load with a 90 gr. Hornady lead SWC bullet of 2.4 /HP 38 giving 831 f.p.s. in a
5.3" barrel @ 10,600 cup.

The same load in my Marlin with the 93 gr. bullet goes about 1,050 f.p.s. which is pretty close to original ballistics.

My favorite reload, though, is a capacity load of H4227 with a CCI500 primer for 1200 f.p.s. and is safe in my rifle. Accuracy is excellent even though the barrel isn't in the greatest condition.

One of these years I am going to harvest a Turkey with it.

These are really NEAT rifles.

I am a cartridge collector of sorts as well. Thanks for the nice pics.

John
 
#18 ·
im haveing a hard time finding a set of dies for the 32 S&W , so i may go to the longer smith case. i just handloaded up a few, to test with. now that the lil rifle works/ shoots so good, im going to get serious. id sure be interested if anyone had a spare set of dies, or could send me in the right direction for a set. i did do some searchin on the net, but havent had much sucsess with dies, or short brass yet.
turkey, yes, i was thinking partidge/ tarmigan myself, should be a perfect gun for that.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Thought I would update this vintage thread on the Marlin 1892 .32Colt in case there are others that have this rifle and would like to reload for it.
Today, if one can find ammunition it is likely to cost close to $2 ea.!

Accurate Molds offers molds for two different bullets, both shoot well in my '92 Marlin.:)
For the .91" case: Accurate Molds: Custom Bullet Molds
For the .78" case: Accurate Molds: Custom Bullet Molds


1. .32 Short Colt factory
2. .32 LC Outside lubed factory
3. .32 LC Outside lubed Accurate 31-090S bullet
4. .32 LC inside lubed factory
5. .32 LC Inside lubed Accurate 31-090A bullet
6. .32 LC Shot cartridge factory

John
 
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