Infamy - Page 2 - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > General > Military News
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree37Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12-08-2016, 03:01 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 480

Registered Users do not see the above ad.


what do you call the bataan death march
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12-08-2016, 05:16 AM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
Surrender. With 75,000 able, fighting soldiers. And then "murdered".

We had a similar to Edward King, surrendering kind of Boer general by the name of Piet Cronjé.
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-08-2016 at 05:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12-08-2016, 05:24 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by cptjack View Post
what do you call the bataan death march
I would call it barbaric, but the japs were not signatory to the Geneva Convention (if I remember correctly). Added to the fact they were from a non judeo-christian belief based country.
Their bushido did not allow for them to surrender. It was a loss of honor and shameful thing to do therefore they had no compassion for those enemy that did surrender.
It was what it was.

Last edited by ikesdad; 12-08-2016 at 05:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
 
  #24  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:21 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 189
This date in 2016

I found it interesting, that when one of our Marines had to eject near Japan yesterday, 8 Japanese military planes and 4 of their ships searched for him. Much has happened in 75 years.

Rescuers said they have found a US military pilot who went missing after his fighter jet crashed off the coast of Japan, but his condition was not immediately clear.

The unnamed pilot ejected from the Marine F/A-18 before it plunged into the Pacific on Wednesday evening, setting off a major search and rescue operation.

Japan's defence ministry said Thursday it found the airman and handed him over to the US military.

But when asked if the pilot was still alive, a ministry spokesman said that "we don't have that information".

Earlier Thursday, Japanese and US rescuers said they had expanded their search following the accident, which happened some 90 kilometres (56 miles) off the coast of southwestern Kochi prefecture.

Japan dispatched four ships and eight planes to assist in the rescue operation, it said.

Another jet was also flying on the same mission, Japan's defence ministry said.

The crashed plane is assigned to the US Marine Corps Air Station Iwakuni, one of the main US military bases in Japan, which hosts tens of thousands of US military personnel.

The accident comes as US defence secretary Ashton Carter visited Japan as part of his last Asian tour.
Tnhunter and MusgraveMan like this.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12-08-2016, 06:30 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,348
I spent a year in Korea ten years after the 'cease-fire' (I guess the Norks believe in tapering off over several years) and hatred of Japan was part of their very soul. I saw semi-lynchings on the streets of Oijongbu several times of merchants said to be Japanese, part Japanese, or acting like a Japanese. It seemed to make little difference. A visit to the national museum clarified some of the animosity. Japan ran rough-shod over everything Genghis missed.

I think history has shown a militaristic and cruel people CAN be changed through utter defeat.
laidback likes this.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 12-08-2016, 07:43 AM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by laidback View Post
I found it interesting, that when one of our Marines had to eject near Japan yesterday, 8 Japanese military planes and 4 of their ships searched for him. Much has happened in 75 years.

Rescuers said they have found a US military pilot who went missing after his fighter jet crashed off the coast of Japan, but his condition was not immediately clear.
Sad news - there were some flashbacks. I ejected at night from a fighter jet over the sea. It is very difficult with a back vertebra fracture - which many pilots suffer from the 32G ejection - to free yourself from the parachute and getting into your dinghy especially in high waves and strong wind. If you never had dedicated, very similar conditions training the risk to drown is very high. It appears that a shark got my weapons system operator before he even could get his dinghy inflated. I had one with me very shortly after I was finally able to get onto it.

Reading about the many search vessels and aircraft I fear that this man may not have lived because the ability of modern voice-able locator beacons that pilots carry only needs a single ship or aircraft to plot and find you. Let us hope that he is alive to tell what was the cause of the need to eject and maybe so prevent a repeated similar tragedy - in my case it was a fuel transfer issue in the firmware of a certain batch of pc boards. Pse follow the news.
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12-08-2016, 11:35 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 372
Marine pilot Capt Jake Frederick has been confirmed dead.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 12-08-2016, 08:59 PM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
Sad. Any time I read or hear that a fighter pilot anywhere had died it feels personal in some way. And it was not even a combat mission.
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-09-2016, 03:28 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 480
your posts are anti american
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:21 AM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
??

My friend, how you personally perceive factual history is of course beyond my control or perception or anticipation. Anyone who wishes to put his own personal spin to the facts of a moment in history of course can do that, but when objective analysis reveals a different view then the adult scholar reads and understands that.

Imagine that at West Point where cold analyses of battles and the strategic and tactical mistakes around it are not made to teach future battle commanders to not repeat them, but that every detail gets spinned the way you seem any observation of facts need to be, in order to be "American". Now that will mould our future tacticians and strategists to be real good, will it not?

What did you find factually incorrect in my feelings about the deceased fellow fighter pilot, or for that matter anywhere in any of my posts on the forum as you allege, CPTJack? Tell me and I shall bow to your superior knowledge. If you cannot, then well...

Added: On another forum I may give you from memory the pre-strike strategic and tactical blunders made at Pearl Harbour as is analysed by military academies in Israel, South Africa, Taiwan, France, and I bet you West Point as well - in schooling of cadets to be future battle commanders. I did none of that in any of my posts. Real military leaders are not impressed by PC spin by media. Real leaders anywhere are not PC puppets.

So, my friend, have your own feel good emotions which I greatly respect. At the same time understand that America is not isolated on a little island anymore, cut off from observation and review and analyses. This very forum in its international dress-up is a very example of that world wide web that has brought us all into one living room. Not YOUR living room or mine, but somewhere in the cloud from where we can and may and must view and review the world below us objectively.

The world is but a village, and outside of the beautiful land and the beautiful people of the US of A is another world and other civilisations; some maybe with unexpected, remarkably acute abilities and civil societies of free speech and an open invitation to new views and ideas and knowledge. Go visit those and take whatever new real, factual knowledge you possess to them.
oloutlaw likes this.
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-09-2016 at 05:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:55 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 480
massacre ,sums up my superior knowledge
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 12-09-2016, 05:01 AM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
Indeed it does seem so, but one can not expect the English language - the mother tongue of the American dialect of it to bow to the emotional innuendo the dialect had inflicted upon itself.

I repeat that I greatly respect you, the American land and the American constitution including every single amendment to it, indeed of the first as it stands as The First.

Fight directly with the Americans who burn the Flag - although from what I read that is not at all un-American?
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-09-2016 at 05:26 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 12-09-2016, 08:31 AM
MikeG's Avatar
The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 32,513
I thought about it a while and decided 'massacre' was appropriate for the a-bomb use, as well as the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden, etc. All very one-sided affairs intended to reduce not only the military capability of the enemy, but also demoralize the civilian population with maximum casualties. There will be debates about the effectiveness of each in that regard. The soviet invasion of Manchuria was another major factor in the Japanese surrender so it is probably difficult to assign all of the credit, or blame, to just one event.

Certainly the surprise attach on Pearl Harbor was intended to reduce the military capability of the U.S. in the Pacific theater and demoralize the American public, but it had the opposite effect with regards to U.S. resolve.

Whether or not the 'massacres' via the bombing campaigns were justified is another matter entirely. Usually judgment is given by the victors. It is probably fair to say that avoiding the invasion of Japan may well have saved millions of casualties on both sides, judging from the stubborn resistance of the Japanese military forces on various island campaigns, and reaction of the civilian population on Okinawa.
__________________
MikeG

Quote:
Originally Posted by faucettb
Welcome to the forum. Rules are simple, be nice and join in.

Last edited by MikeG; 12-09-2016 at 08:33 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 12-09-2016, 08:41 AM
MusgraveMan's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Craig, Colorado / Pretoria, South Africa
Posts: 5,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I thought about it a while and decided 'massacre' was appropriate for the a-bomb use, as well as the firebombing of Tokyo, Dresden, etc. All very one-sided affairs intended to reduce not only the military capability of the enemy, but also demoralize the civilian population with maximum casualties. There will be debates about the effectiveness of each in that regard. The soviet invasion of Manchuria was another major factor in the Japanese surrender so it is probably difficult to assign all of the credit, or blame, to just one event.

Certainly the surprise attach on Pearl Harbor was intended to reduce the military capability of the U.S. in the Pacific theater and demoralize the American public, but it had the opposite effect with regards to U.S. resolve.

Whether or not the 'massacres' via the bombing campaigns were justified is another matter entirely. Usually judgment is given by the victors. It is probably fair to say that avoiding the invasion of Japan may well have saved millions of casualties on both sides, judging from the stubborn resistance of the Japanese military forces on various island campaigns, and reaction of the civilian population on Okinawa.
Indeed, and NO judgement was even proposed in any of my posts. Simple facts, and the application of the word massacre was given as examples. To read "judgement" into a common word as was done - and labeled as un-American is simply mischievous - to use a PC expression
__________________
"Animals show their superiority outside. Men show it inside."

Russian proverb
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 12-09-2016, 09:20 AM
recoil junky's Avatar
Elk Whisperer (Super Moderator)
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Craig CO. Elk Hunting Capitol of the World!
Posts: 6,862
I've known, learned form and worked beside men from the Big Red 1. One who made from Guadalcanal to Iwo Jima and was wounded on the way down 3 days after the flag was raised. Another who made it trough the whole shebang, Guadalcanal to Okinawa "without a scratch" and until his last breath hated everything Japanese. I mean EVERYTHING!!!!

A sailor, who at 15, lied about his age, joined the Navy and arrived at Pearl December 10th. That's as much as he will say to this day at 92 years old about "the war".

Another sailor who was already serving in the ETO at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. He hunts with me every fall from my deck.

A German soldier who was brainwashed by the Third Reich but somehow made it to the United States and taught (of all things) as a professor of botany at the University of Montana for over 40 years.

Another who was in Germany and Italy in the artillery where he learned to hate mules because that's what they used to pack their pieces on. Hated mules, much to Dad's and my surprise because he had some of the best pack strings and teams in Montana.

We hear about the Bataan death march and how the Japanese treated prisoners generally. We don't actually know what went through those boy's minds because it was a different time, no one talked about stuff like that. They were glad the war was over by whatever means. Glad to be done killing, glad to be out of the stench of war.

Dropping the A-Bomb and calling it a massacre? Not to them. Not then. It was a shame, yes, that civilians had to die but that war was over and no more had to die.

RJ
Marshal Kane and oloutlaw like this.
__________________
Keep your powder dry and when you go afield take the kids and please..........wear your seat belts.
I am the ORIGINAL recoil junky ©, often imitated, but never equalled.
Proud Father of a SoldierMedic in The 82nd Airborne 325thAIR White Falcons
IUOE Local #9
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 12-09-2016, 01:29 PM
Irv S's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Colorado/Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,394
Much is made of "civilian casualties", collateral or not (called "massacre" as in above posts). The news media generally refers to them as "innocent civilians", but many are are not at all "innocent" in that the are supporting and comforting the enemy combatants. Should those providing arms, food, etc to the enemy combatants not also be considered the enemy and treated as such? I only consider some who cannot flee and pre-teen children to possibly be "innocent".
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:12 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 911
Irv S, I have long contended that there are no innocents in war.
__________________
There was only one era in my life when I was truely free. An airboat, 50 gallons of aviation fuel and a good machete. Just God and me and the Everglades.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 12-09-2016, 04:23 PM
Tnhunter's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,871
War is not black or white. War is not something that can be defined definitively. War at many times is pandemonium. I hated every minute I spent in those places.

My opinion today is that the A-Bombs we dropped stopped the suffering and the scars war puts on men & women. My other opinion is that anyone who did to this country what happened on 7 December 1941 deserved even worse than those two bombs. Flame me all you want
__________________
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote
a blank check made payable to The United States of
America
for an amount of up to and including my life.
That is honor, and there are way too many people in this
country who no longer understand it.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 12-10-2016, 05:30 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: South Central Arizona
Posts: 4,583
Hiroshima, August 6, 1945
Nagasaki, August 9, 1945

It made an entire nation rethink their Code of Bushido and it made Emperor Hirohito do the unthinkable, that is surrender.

Last edited by Marshal Kane; 12-10-2016 at 05:51 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:21 PM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1