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  #1  
Old 12-06-2016, 05:15 PM
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Infamy


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Yes tomorrow is that very day said to live there. A an American born only 13 years from that "day" I somehow figured it would always live there, infamy.

Seems life is different today. Stop someone on the street tomorrow and ask them about the significance of 12/7 and they will most likely look at you with a very blank look on their disinterested faces. A **** shame.

Should some have forgotten(?) over 400,000 men and women from the US of A DIED in that little skirmish. I'm not going to even mention the MILLIONS of others that died (20 million?) or the MILLIONS we saved ending the war.

The way that people lived here in the states completely safe from intrusion was also something some today would never understand.

I am here, alive today, due to those who sacrificed their all for all of us. I try to take pause and keep that in perspective each and every day of my life.

Enjoy your evening. Keep a military person in your heart. And never, NEVER, forget what those folks did for you. And please keep their intent and love (LOVE) for this nation in mind. Thanks.
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Old 12-06-2016, 09:26 PM
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This Date in History

1787 Delaware becomes 1st state to ratify the US constitution
1862 Battle of Hartsville, TN.
1862 Battle of Prairie Grove, AR.
1864 Skirmish at Ebenezer Creek/Cypress Swamp, Georgia.
1885 49th Congress (1885-87) convenes.
1891 52nd US Congress (1st to appropriate $1 billion) holds 1st session.
1900 Max Planck, in his house at Grunewald, on the outskirts of Berlin, discovers the law of black body radiation.
1912 Bust of Queen Nefertiti found in El-Amarna, Egypt.
1917 US becomes 13th country to declare war on Austria during World War I.
1937 Russian chess player Alekhine recaptures world title from Max Euwe.
1940 North Africa: British counter offensive under general O'Connor.
1941 Australian bombers land on Timor/Ambon.
1941 Futshida's air fleet passes coastline of Oahu.
1941 German siege of Tobruk ends after 8 months.
*1941 Imperial Japanese Navy with 353 planes attack US fleet at Pearl Harbour Naval Base, Hawaii, (killing 2,403 people) (Both the Fleet commander, Rear Admiral Husband E. Kimmel, and the Army commander, Lieutenant General Walter Short (the Army had been responsible for air defense of Hawaii, including Pearl Harbor, and for general defense of the islands against hostile attack), were relieved of their commands shortly thereafter. They were accused of "dereliction of duty" by the Roberts Commission for not making reasonable defensive preparations)
1941 1st Japanese midget submarine (No. 20) attacked by a US ship (USS Ward).
1943 Cairo: president Roosevelt travels back to the US.
1944 Convention on International Civil Aviation drawn up in Chicago.
1962 Great Britain performs nuclear test at Nevada Test Site.
1972 Apollo 17 (US), final manned lunar landing mission, launched.
1983 France performs nuclear test at Muruora Island.
1985 Atlantis (61-B) returns to Kennedy Space Center via Kelly AFB.
1987 43 die in Pacific Southwest Airline crash in California (man shot pilots).
1988 Gorbachev announces 10% unilateral Soviet troop reductions at UN.
1992 Galileo spacecraft passes North Pole of Moon (Peary Crater).
1993 The Long Island Rail Road massacre: Passenger Colin Ferguso.n murders six people and injures 19 others on the LIRR in Nassau County, New York.
1996 Space Shuttle STS 80 (Columbia 21), lands.
2014 The Syrian military accuse Israel of carrying out two stealth air strikes on Syria.
2015 US Presidential candidate Donald Trump proposes banning all Muslims from entering the US.

*Hitler awarded Imperial Japanese ambassador to Nazi Germany Hiroshi Ōshima the Grand Cross of the Order of the German Eagle in Gold (1st class) after the attack, praising Japan for striking hard and without first declaring war. This in itself was reason to declare war on Germany.

*FDR on declaring war on Germany (not Japan) after Pearl Harbour: "...Nazi forces are not seeking mere modifications in colonial maps or in minor European boundaries. They openly seek the destruction of all elective systems of government on every continent, including our own. They seek to establish systems of government based on the regimentation of all human beings by a handful of individual rulers who seize power by force". [Important for USA to know today, by the way].

*He concluded: "Yes, these men and their hypnotized followers call this a "New Order." It is not new, and it is not order. For order among nations presupposes something enduring, some system of justice under which individuals over a long period of time are willing to live. Humanity will never permanently accept a system imposed by conquest, and based on slavery. These modern tyrants find it necessary to their plans to eliminate all democracies — eliminate them one by one. The nations of Europe, and indeed we, ourselves, did not appreciate that purpose. We do now."

*So the war was started by not attacking Japan or even Hitler in Europe - British, American and South African forces instead attacked the Italian and German occupation troops in north Africa. The rest is history.
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-07-2016 at 12:58 AM.
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  #3  
Old 12-07-2016, 03:25 AM
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25 yrs ago on this date wwII airplanes flew over the statue of liberty and dropped wreathes .included was a mitsibusi ,which as a son of a father was in the pacific did not appreciate
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  #4  
Old 12-07-2016, 05:33 AM
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Tennessee Veteran

An article about the Tennessee Veteran (now 100 yrs old) who survived the attack at Pearl Harbor (includes an audio interview). Raised in rural Pikeville, Tn. he survived that attack and several other famous battles to have gone from PV1 to Lt Col at his retirement in 1961.


100-year-old Pearl Harbor survivor from Tennessee lives on to tell the story
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Infamy-tennessee-veteran-pearl-harbor.jpg  
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A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote
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America
for an amount of up to and including my life.
That is honor, and there are way too many people in this
country who no longer understand it.
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  #5  
Old 12-07-2016, 06:17 AM
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The first Floridan killed in WW-II was my third cousin, Roscoe Watson, on the USS Arizona.
I was born nine months after the second A bomb.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:31 AM
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What were the dates of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima massacres?
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  #7  
Old 12-07-2016, 06:55 AM
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August 1945 (?) when the bombs were dropped.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:05 AM
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Ahhh... I beat them by nine months!
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  #9  
Old 12-07-2016, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
What were the dates of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima massacres?
I don't know, which Dynasty were they committed under?

I'm certain you can not be referencing the use of nuclear weapons on the cities of Hiroshima, Aug 6, or Nagasaki, Aug 9, both in 1945, since both cities were legitimate military targets in that both contained industrial factories, while Hiroshima held a large military garrison and Nagasaki was a port facility that also contained shipyards for the building of warships for the IJN.

Now on Dec 7, 1925 my father was born on a farm is southeast Kansas. Sixteen after that he listened on the radio to the first reports of the attack on Pearl Harbor. In April 1944, just barely 5 months after his 18th birthday he was in the US Army and ultimately was trained to be a US Paratrooper, by late 1944 he was in New Guinea in the 11 Airborne Division, HQ Company of the 511th PIR, in January he was involved in the invasion of Luzon Island, in February the rescue mission at the Los Banos prison camp, freeing 2,147 prisoners that were scheduled to be murdered by the retreating Japanese forces.

As a member of the 11th Airborne division my father was one of the first American soldiers to land in Japan, landing at Atsugi airbase on Aug 30, 1945.

There was no massacre of Japanese by American forces at Hiroshima nor Nagasaki. Just collateral civilian losses from the act of ending a war which the USA did not want nor start.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
What were the dates of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima massacres?
I'm not sure massacres is the correct word.
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Old 12-07-2016, 08:27 AM
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GLS: I know the English definition of massacre:

Dictionary of Cambridge: "an act of killing a lot of people" The nightly bombings of the academic cities of Dresden and Hamburg were massacres of much larger numbers of civilians killed. The nuclear bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima only "killed a lot of people".

If the word massacre has a different meaning in the American language, or if you perceive a different meaning than the common English context I cannot account for that. I do know that in the US individuals' feelings have unique emotional spins on words and therefore the PC BS we have just experienced during and post the election. Will the thought police BS attach an emotional suffix to a very common English word and define how it must be interpreted? Would the attack on the military base at Pearl Harbour during wartime and leaving 2,403 dead be seen as an infamous massacre? Infamy means having been convicted of a particularly reprehensible crime / the quality of being famous for something considered bad.

Please do not attach emotion to simple English language. It was a question about the dates of two attacks that "killed a lot of people" and where a poster mentioned he was born nine months later. That prompted me to find where it was in relation to my own birthday and a kind response indicated I was born nine months before.

There was no distinction of or even inference about military or civilian targets. Being of military background and having commanded attack forces and being interested in military history I shall certainly now research the tactical significance or these two military targets for my own edification. From what you explain they do not seem to be infamous like the nightly fire bombing on Dresden and Hamburg and daily attacking the ambulance trains out of these two cities.
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-07-2016 at 08:47 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-07-2016, 09:32 AM
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My father was a survivor of the Pear Harbor invasion. Afterwards, he served in the Pacific theater as commander of a Duck Battalion, being in on some of the major island hopping battles. I have the Marble's knife that he carried throughout the war. It has bent hand guards and notches on the pommel. I sent the knife to a Marble's restoration guy because it was in terrible shape. He kept it in an old tackle box. The Marble's guy confirmed that the knife was the right age and also had battle scars and damage typical of those heavily used during the war. He said the knife itself confirmed its history. BTW, Marble's, to my knowledge, were not military issue, but many soldiers bought them for personal use.

I have no emotional attachment to his war artifacts so I am donating all but the knife to the local military museum. I like the knife and my son wants to give it to my granddaughter some day.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:37 AM
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1CC, can one look up "Marble knife" and find pictures? Never heard of it.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:43 AM
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Marbles was a maker of knives, rifle sights, & other goodies back in the day. In fact they are still in business but a more limited offering.

MarblesKnives

Marbles Gun Sights - Fiber Optic Sights, Catch .22, Gun Sights
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Old 12-07-2016, 10:09 AM
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Wow... I like! Agey AND classy.
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Old 12-07-2016, 11:37 AM
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MusgraveMan: Merriam-Webster has a somewhat different definition for Massacre.


https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massacre

Since the Empire of Japan was at war with The United States of America they were neither helpless nor unresisting. Unlike those residing in the Hawaiian Islands, especially Pearl Harbor.
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:42 PM
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MusgraveMan can call the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki whatever he wants to.

i prefer to call it something else. With the dropping of those two nuclear weapons there was no need for the planned invasion of Japan. That invasion would resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of US troops. The dropping of those bombs saved the lives of a few million Japanese.
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Old 12-07-2016, 03:30 PM
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MusgraveMan, this is the Marble's knife my father carried on Pearl Harbor 12/7/1941 and throughout the Pacific Theater. I hesitated to have it refurbished, but it was in terrible condition and I just could not leave it in that kind of condition.

The Gladstone, MI, made Marble's knives were of excellent quality. The early ones like this one were of good tool steel, but I cannot remember which one. I bought on of the last ones they made in Gladstone. It is very similar to this one, but the blade is of a different steel and not quite as long and as wide. Production of knives has been moved to China in recent years. I cannot say if they are of decent quality as I have not seen one of the China made knives, but they are relatively cheap.
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:57 PM
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ICalicoCat, I have one like that!! Picked it up at an old, old game pole on public land in Colorado - must have been a hunting camp ages ago. Rusted and pitted but intact. NOW it has even more value for me because working knives are like hunting boots and cold weather jackets: They live. Forever. I have slightly cleaned up the blade. Now there is a winter job for me when I get back to Colorado.

I bet your dad would have advised you to re-make it too because it would have made him feel young - and a good job was done.
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Old 12-07-2016, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by GLS_1956 View Post
MusgraveMan: Merriam-Webster has a somewhat different definition for Massacre.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massacre

Since the Empire of Japan was at war with The United States of America they were neither helpless nor unresisting. Unlike those residing in the Hawaiian Islands, especially Pearl Harbor.
Helpless or unresisting are not the defining conditions for a massacre. High numbers of dead are. Do not fall into the liberal PC style to add emotion to an everyday word in your mind, sir.

Ahhh... and Webster's .... with its prescribed interpretive adjectives added to definitions like church pastors are wont to do to enforce their own dogmas ("Brothers and sisters, THIS is how the Master wants you to understand these words,no matter that they are written differently ...") . I believe Webster is still banned at Oxford and Cambridge and exceedingly rare here (only found in university libraries for literature study (not even in schools) to interpret the unknown American words printed in books. I have come to understand and admire Louis L'Amour's language - one of the keenest observers of all time and an ability to put those mind images to words in a most admirable way. His style to not rely on swear words (the crutches of the literary challenged) to convey exact experiences and moments puts him in a higher position as even Tom Clancy and James Clavell.

Back to words and their meaning. I remember when the CIA asked and initially financed the South Africans to remove the Cubans from Angola and a Cuban armoured force with Russian tanks and troop carriers, significantly outnumbering the assault group carried out what they thought was a surprise attack on the advancing SA force under command of my friend Jan Breytenbach. Only, they made a small error of judgement - though there was no war declared Jan had set up proper defensive positions every night and early warning scout cars were out all the time. Man, did he massacre them when the attack came.

That scene of Cubans and their equipment being massacred by our forces, replayed itself battle by battle during the last 15 years of that war: always more troops out of Havannah and always more tanks and fighter aircraft and ground to air missiles and experts out of Russia and East Germany as the previous lots got massacred. That is what you do to enemy military forces - you massacre them. That massacre of Cubans in Angola over 20 years surely decreased the numbers of young men and their progeny that otherwise would have swam over and settled in Florida...

When the British forces advanced into the Western Transvaal a Boer Kommando (farmers hastily commandeered by couriers on horse-back, changing horses wherever they could, to bring their 7x57 hunting rifles) under Commandant Koos de La Rey was waiting for them in the hills. A boy of 13 asked his father: "Vader, how many men are we? "Hundred and seven", was the answer. "And the Engelse?". "I hear almost a full regiment - the scouts say about 900 men". The boy sighed: "Geez.... we'll be home late, and then I have to get the cows from that far field into the corral and milk them". It was a massacre.

Now, My Lai? What would Webster's call that if Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden and Hamburg fall outside that volumes's definition of the word massacre? It means nothing else but "to kill many people". By the way, how does Webster define" Infamy"?
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Last edited by MusgraveMan; 12-08-2016 at 02:29 AM.
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