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  #61  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:17 PM
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I am done with this thread. I don't like where it is going.
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  #62  
Old 04-15-2017, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Raymar77 View Post
Actually, Irv, my question and concerns have been answered. I am new to this forum, but not to the hunting/gun community. In my experience, folks apart of it are the most helpful and nice out there. It seems that that is not the case here as you have shown. I guess there will always be keyboard warrior pretenders though.
Quite the contrary. In the first post in which you told "us" that your planned load from a handgun should be more than enough to take a black bear, I could see you were going to be argumentative towards any answer that did not fit into your opinion.

You are more than welcome to do as you please, legally, but the members here have overwhelmingly told you that your idea was not a prudent one for someone "hunting" for a black bear vs someone trying to protect themselves while traveling in black bear country.

I'll simply mention, again, that your initial post was more an argument for your idea and opinion than it was a question to folks who may have actually killed black bears. Take what you like from the information that has been provided in good faith. If you do not like "our" site, I find it your loss as I did not read one rude comment about a question(?) you decided you knew the answer to before ever asking it.

Best of luck on taking a bear this coming season.
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  #63  
Old 04-15-2017, 08:32 PM
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@tnhunter,

Perhaps you misread my initial post. In detail I described a hand load available to me in a caliber I have and was curious about. I then asked if it would be sufficient for a scenario. Having received some great responses, (and a lot of good stories) others obviously thought that it was a valid question. Any way you want to interpret my initial post is fine, because in the end I decided not to use the caliber after getting some informative feedback. Perhaps you missed that post of mine. Its funny to think that I would choose not to use the 357 mag if, according to you, I already "knew the answer."

Thanks to everyone who took my posts seriously. There was good info, opinions, and stories going both ways, but In the end, like I said, I'll just be taking my rifle. I hope everyones has a good easter. God Bless!
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  #64  
Old 04-21-2017, 07:07 AM
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Raymar77, and others,

I didn't see anything in your original post to take offence to, and not really anything in the replies of others. I disagree with some, based on my experience of hunting bears for over thirty consecutive hunts, and not having the right to use a handgun here in Ontario, Canada.

A lot of good material here, and the fact that Raymar77 has changed, or modified, his view on these matters reveals something very positive about his character. I believe in the end he got the info he was looking for.

I'm just a few years younger than oldguide32 at 81, but have hunted nearly as long. Yet I didn't start hunting bruin on purpose until the spring of 1989, and I've purposefully hunted them every year since, and by times, when we had a spring hunt -- which we now have again -- I hunted them both spring and fall, mostly over bait but not exclusively. So, in all I've hunted them for about 33 seasons. On purpose, I don't take a bear every season, though I'm licensed to do so. After several years of working with a very good outfitter, I started baiting on my own. I've learned a lot about bears in the process. That's one reason for baiting them -- I learn something new every time.

As to rifle cartridges, I use medium and large bores. The Marlin in .45-70 and a Ruger #1 in .45-70 with select handloads are my favorites. I've never lost a bear to a big bore rifle. Also mediums from .338 to .375 are favorites as well. The simple truth is that unless one has "nerves of steel", or is stupid, to go after a bear (any size or kind) alone in thick forest or brush where ravens, swamps, bogs and unmarked small lakes and streams are too abundant to know all there is to know about physical conditions, you not only need to know your Creator but carry a "Big Stick"!

There are way too many variables to have it all put into neat packages before an encounter with "any" bear under such terms.

One brief story: I finished off a wounded bear that had a left front leg and a rear right leg practically severed, but was still "porposing" (I'm from the East Coast where father was a commercial fisherman) thru 30" tall grass on two legs. I finally caught up and finished it by a 9.3mm, 286gr through the short ribs and made exit at the top of the spine after taking out three vertebrae. A young hunter missed the vitals on his first shot because the bear was on the move at 75 yards. That bear was very determined and took a lot of punishment before it was finished. It weighed maybe 110 lbs!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
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  #65  
Old 04-21-2017, 09:42 AM
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I friend of mine and I went black bear hunting in Homer, Alaska a few years ago. We saw a small black bear eating grass like a cow about 400 yards out in a big meadow of knee-deep grass. It was early spring, and he had been out of the den just a very short time. He was very, very small and I didn't want him. My buddy did, so I stayed in the skiff on the bank of the little creek we had gone up, and he began a slow crawl through the grass to get closer. Once within about 75 yards or so, he rose up slowly out of the grass, sighted in and pulled the trigger. He shoots some wild cat round I am not familiar with, some .300-06 or something? It's pretty substantial. And he is an excellent shot. The bear was hit hard, but took off. We didn't want him to get to the edge of the meadow and into the trees, for the trees there were extremely thick and on a hill that went basically straight up. So Mike worked the bolt and hit him again. He keeps going. Mike empties the rifle, and every single shot was a killing shot. But that little bear doesn't know that. He's still going. The rifle is now dry. Mike pulls his .45 colt, which is loaded with heavy hard cast he loads him self, and walks up to finish the crawling bear. One slug goes into the back of the skull and comes out the front, blowing out he right eye. I've come up by this time with my 1895G to see what in the world is going on. The bear is full of holes, his intestines are strung out 20 feet behind him, his eye is blown out and he's still hissing, growling and talking fight. Mike's face is white and he looks sick. A very decent man, he's trying to end the bears's suffering, but it wont die. It just won't die. Alive, it probably weighed 100 lbs. It took 3 well place shots from a high-powered rifle and 5 hardcast .45lc rounds, 2 of which were through the head. Mike hasn't been bear hunting since.

There are too many variables to know. That was not a typical result of shooting a bear, I know, but it was a result. Arm chair hunter will quarterback this story to death, pound their chest and pontificate on how they know what went wrong and how they wouldn't make such-and-such mistake. But you just cant always know. You control as many variables as you can, do your best, and then adapt and humbly learn. Three of the variables you CAN control is your firearm, your ammo and your skill level. I applaud the OP for learning from the advice he received and consequently changing his approach. He is taking control of the variables he actually has control over. That is how it is done.
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  #66  
Old 04-22-2017, 11:45 AM
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Killing blackies

In Alberta, we are allowed two black bear tags per year (per family member). We are allowed to hunt over bait, or without. There are two seasons. The spring season starts May 1st, and ends June 15th.
The fall season starts Sept 1st and ends Oct 31st. Spring bears have better coats, fall bears are heavier with fat. Black bears are therefor better eating when killed in the fall.
MOST spring bears are killed over bait, and from a tree-stand. THE best bait is rancid beaver (see the local Indians) That means shooting distances of 50-100 yards maximum. Approximately 60% of spring bears are killed with archery tackle. I WILL KILL ANY BLACK BEAR YOU CHOOSE WITH A 22-250. People who choose cannons for black bear have read too many ghost stories.
In the last bear camp I worked at, we killed 57 blackies in 45 days. Those ranged in size, from a cub, to a couple seven footers. The color phases ranged from the common black, through, brown, cinnamon, to pure blonde (a seven footer that went to Arkansas with lawyer Brian Austin)
Man up. Use a gun suited to the semi-coward black bear (30-30 class), and leave your cannons at home.
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  #67  
Old 04-22-2017, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
In Alberta, we are allowed two black bear tags per year (per family member). We are allowed to hunt over bait, or without. There are two seasons. The spring season starts May 1st, and ends June 15th.
The fall season starts Sept 1st and ends Oct 31st. Spring bears have better coats, fall bears are heavier with fat. Black bears are therefor better eating when killed in the fall.
MOST spring bears are killed over bait, and from a tree-stand. THE best bait is rancid beaver (see the local Indians) That means shooting distances of 50-100 yards maximum. Approximately 60% of spring bears are killed with archery tackle. I WILL KILL ANY BLACK BEAR YOU CHOOSE WITH A 22-250. People who choose cannons for black bear have read too many ghost stories.
In the last bear camp I worked at, we killed 57 blackies in 45 days. Those ranged in size, from a cub, to a couple seven footers. The color phases ranged from the common black, through, brown, cinnamon, to pure blonde (a seven footer that went to Arkansas with lawyer Brian Austin)
Man up. Use a gun suited to the semi-coward black bear (30-30 class), and leave your cannons at home.
I do not oppose bait hunting on a philosophical level, so don't misunderstand where I am coming from here. Hunt as you wish, it matters not to me.

But sitting up in a tree drinking coffee from a thermos and reading a Louis L'amour book while waiting for a critter to come along and eat something you've tied to a tree below you is hardly grounds for blanket statements and broad brushes. Some of us hunt on the ground, spot and stalk, and go in after our game. If the bear shifts just as we pull the trigger, if the bear suddenly appears out of the alders 4' in front of us, if the sow appears just as we pull the trigger on her beau in spring, we are not safely up a tree. We cant just pour another cup of coffee and wait it out in safety high above the fray. And we certainly don't want to get caught stupidly holding a !@#$%^& .22-250.

"Man up"?

Seriously? Did you really say that?!
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  #68  
Old 04-22-2017, 01:03 PM
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Reply to Jaquimaman

Does your name refer to the Californio style "bridle" (yes I know it's not a bridle, that why I put those little marks on each end, just curious) Oh wait! One of your posts said something about Eastern Oregon, so yeah I guess it does. Reason I asked, is that I use them myself and love them.
Back to subject, I agree (emotionally) with almost everything you said. What you're maybe forgetting is that guiding is a BUSINESS, and it helps booking if we kill 57 bears a season, as opposed to say 12. And maybe you're forgetting that it is our CLIENTS who are sitting in the tree stand with the coffee, and the Louis L'amour (read every one of his books, by the way, before I was twenty) AND, many of those self same clients come from south of the 49, and are packing pretty serious firepower.
If you reread my last post you might notice that bait hunting is only one kind of hunting available, OR PURSUED. Personally, I have never killed anything over a bait, nor from a blind, yet I am aware that baiting deer is common practice in many states.
Lastly, I stand by my statement about killing black bears with a 22-250 (seen lots of Indians kill them with a 22 rimfire but that's illegal for us ;0) My point is this......black bears are no big deal, and you don't need a 105 to bring one down.
Lastly, "Man up"? Yeah! Why do people seek out the challenge of killing "dangerous" game? It's certainly NOT to eliminate every single chance they have to harm you (the hunter). Heck Bell killed ELEPHANTS (and plenty of them!) with a 7x57. Why did Ricky Guinn kill a 10 ft. Alaskan brownie with a compound bow (whilst standing in the same creek?) Why is it called hunting, rather than killing?
Why do bunny huggers scoff at guys using cannons to kill bambi? Is THAT a legacy you want?
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  #69  
Old 04-22-2017, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
Does your name refer to the Californio style "bridle" (yes I know it's not a bridle, that why I put those little marks on each end, just curious) Oh wait! One of your posts said something about Eastern Oregon, so yeah I guess it does. Reason I asked, is that I use them myself and love them.
Back to subject, I agree (emotionally) with almost everything you said. What you're maybe forgetting is that guiding is a BUSINESS, and it helps booking if we kill 57 bears a season, as opposed to say 12. And maybe you're forgetting that it is our CLIENTS who are sitting in the tree stand with the coffee, and the Louis L'amour (read every one of his books, by the way, before I was twenty) AND, many of those self same clients come from south of the 49, and are packing pretty serious firepower.
If you reread my last post you might notice that bait hunting is only one kind of hunting available, OR PURSUED. Personally, I have never killed anything over a bait, nor from a blind, yet I am aware that baiting deer is common practice in many states.
Lastly, I stand by my statement about killing black bears with a 22-250 (seen lots of Indians kill them with a 22 rimfire but that's illegal for us ;0) My point is this......black bears are no big deal, and you don't need a 105 to bring one down.
Lastly, "Man up"? Yeah! Why do people seek out the challenge of killing "dangerous" game? It's certainly NOT to eliminate every single chance they have to harm you (the hunter). Heck Bell killed ELEPHANTS (and plenty of them!) with a 7x57. Why did Ricky Guinn kill a 10 ft. Alaskan brownie with a compound bow (whilst standing in the same creek?) Why is it called hunting, rather than killing?
Why do bunny huggers scoff at guys using cannons to kill bambi? Is THAT a legacy you want?
Yes, it is referring to the jaquima. Ultimately, I arrived at the point in my horsemanship that I felt if I couldnt do it in a bosal or a snaffle, I was doing it wrong. That is not to say in any way that straight-up bridal horses in spades (you will know what that means) are not legitimate and amazing in their own right, but I never got to that point. It wasn't necessary. I've never been to Oregon, I cowboyed in Wyoming, Colorado, Kansas and Idaho. I was never on a true buckaroo outfit in those days, but I came to respect and follow their horsemanship.

Many black bears have been brought down with lighter calibers. True. Many more, I believe, have been lost. Bell is always brought up in these discussions, but what is never discussed is how many hunters have been killed trying to emulate that lone master at his unique craft, or how many elephants have been wounded and escaped to suffer by said ignorant, arrogant mimics. Bell was not some math teacher from Indiana who saved up for years for a once-in-a-lifetime hunt, and should not be held up as an example as to what is doable and what is not for the rest of us.

My exception to your point above is the blanket statement regarding all black bear hunting and hunters. I don't know about where you hunt, but up here, when you go seeking the "half-cowardly" lowly black bear you speak of in your post, you do so in Grizzly country. I realize that the OP of this post lives back east somewhere, and does not need to be concerned with 8 foot grizzly, but that is exactly my point. Blanket statements can get novices killed. (How's that for a blanket statement regarding a blanket statement )Or cause novices to wound and lose game. In your situation, for you, your way works. Great. I'm for it. Just don't try to fit everyone into your box, and then throw dirt on their manhood when they don't. Or won't.

I'm not looking for a fight here. I don't want one. And I don't think you do either. Let's just let folks of less experience, different circumstances, unique temperament, geographical variety, personal philosophy and questionable financial depth work out their own way to enjoy this sport we all love as best they can, simply offering insight and advice from experience when we have it to offer. If a computer tech from suburban Chicago reinforces his masculinity a little bit and throws off the drudgery of modern corporate life for a moment by heading into the wilds with a big gun throwing heavy lead, thus reconnecting with a faint echo of our primitive self, who are we to take that away from him? We can help him learn to handle the bigger rifle better, but not mock him and rob him of that little bit of momentary thrill he has. That's cruel.
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  #70  
Old 04-22-2017, 05:05 PM
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So I am a coward because I like my 375HH in the Canadian woods? OK you are a fool if you traipse around looking for a Moose or Elk with a 22-250, and you are a dead fool if you run into a Hungry or pissed of Grisly. Even more a fool if all you are packing is a 357.

There, I won't mince words either.
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  #71  
Old 04-22-2017, 08:23 PM
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There has been many African elephants killed with the 6.5 Mauser but I wouldn't recommend it. Alberta Guide should stay in Alberta and NOT in Pennsylvania where the black bears can be DOUBLE the size of the average Alberta bear. Anyone who uses a 22-250 for bear should have their hunting privileges permanently revoked.
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  #72  
Old 04-23-2017, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
Why do bunny huggers scoff at guys using cannons to kill bambi? Is THAT a legacy you want?
Anti-hunters are against hunting, not cartridge choice. Try going onto an Anti-hunting forum and explain to them you're using a 30-30 instead of a 35 Whelen and see how tolerant they are .
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  #73  
Old 04-23-2017, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
In Alberta, we are allowed two black bear tags per year (per family member). We are allowed to hunt over bait, or without. There are two seasons. The spring season starts May 1st, and ends June 15th.
The fall season starts Sept 1st and ends Oct 31st. Spring bears have better coats, fall bears are heavier with fat. Black bears are therefor better eating when killed in the fall.
MOST spring bears are killed over bait, and from a tree-stand. THE best bait is rancid beaver (see the local Indians) That means shooting distances of 50-100 yards maximum. Approximately 60% of spring bears are killed with archery tackle. I WILL KILL ANY BLACK BEAR YOU CHOOSE WITH A 22-250. People who choose cannons for black bear have read too many ghost stories.
In the last bear camp I worked at, we killed 57 blackies in 45 days. Those ranged in size, from a cub, to a couple seven footers. The color phases ranged from the common black, through, brown, cinnamon, to pure blonde (a seven footer that went to Arkansas with lawyer Brian Austin)
Man up. Use a gun suited to the semi-coward black bear (30-30 class), and leave your cannons at home.
I prefer to use a cartridge that will kill the animal as quickly as possible even when everything doesn't go exactly right. I believe I owe it to the bear to ensure as much as possible a quick kill and a recovered shot animal. Being under gunned doesn't make you a man it only makes you irresponsible.
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  #74  
Old 04-23-2017, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by frhunter13 View Post
So I am a coward because I like my 375HH in the Canadian woods? OK you are a fool if you traipse around looking for a Moose or Elk with a 22-250, and you are a dead fool if you run into a Hungry or pissed of Grisly. Even more a fool if all you are packing is a 357.
The first time my late hunting buddy and I went to Manitoba, we hunted Caribou and took our .270s. We heard later from the outfitter that the group after us had a problem with Polar Bears and one had to be killed. The guide with the hunter who shot it was my guide on a later Moose trip (fortunately another hunter videotaped the justified kill and that avoided prosecution). My late hunting buddy commented to me that we shouldn't take rifles for what we are hunting, but rifles that are adequate for what may be hunting us. On later trips for moose in Manitoba and British Columbia, he took his .375 H&H and I took my .340 Wby. My guide in BC where grizzlies were common carried a .416.
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  #75  
Old 04-23-2017, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
Does your name refer to the Californio style "bridle" (yes I know it's not a bridle, that why I put those little marks on each end, just curious) Oh wait! One of your posts said something about Eastern Oregon, so yeah I guess it does. Reason I asked, is that I use them myself and love them.
Back to subject, I agree (emotionally) with almost everything you said. What you're maybe forgetting is that guiding is a BUSINESS, and it helps booking if we kill 57 bears a season, as opposed to say 12. And maybe you're forgetting that it is our CLIENTS who are sitting in the tree stand with the coffee, and the Louis L'amour (read every one of his books, by the way, before I was twenty) AND, many of those self same clients come from south of the 49, and are packing pretty serious firepower.
If you reread my last post you might notice that bait hunting is only one kind of hunting available, OR PURSUED. Personally, I have never killed anything over a bait, nor from a blind, yet I am aware that baiting deer is common practice in many states.
Lastly, I stand by my statement about killing black bears with a 22-250 (seen lots of Indians kill them with a 22 rimfire but that's illegal for us ;0) My point is this......black bears are no big deal, and you don't need a 105 to bring one down.
Lastly, "Man up"? Yeah! Why do people seek out the challenge of killing "dangerous" game? It's certainly NOT to eliminate every single chance they have to harm you (the hunter). Heck Bell killed ELEPHANTS (and plenty of them!) with a 7x57. Why did Ricky Guinn kill a 10 ft. Alaskan brownie with a compound bow (whilst standing in the same creek?) Why is it called hunting, rather than killing?
Why do bunny huggers scoff at guys using cannons to kill bambi? Is THAT a legacy you want?
You sound like a troll to me rather than a guide! Tell all that to your clients and see if they believe you.... and how many will come your way. "we killed 57 bears in 45 days". How many did you kill?
Was the cub one of them? That's illegal where I hunt.

You pour contempt on those of us who use a .45-70, or something of that nature. The OP was speaking of STOPPING a bear that might be coming out of the bush in his direction in a surprise encounter, not popping one off that is posing side on at a bait! How many seven footers have you killed with a 22-250 charging head on from a few yards? You mention 57 taken in 45 days -- how many were wounded and took multiple shots -- or worse were lost?

It appears that you are looking for some kind of status along side Bell. It will take infinitely more than just bragging about what you can do with a 22-250 to achieve anything close to that.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
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  #76  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by albertaguide85 View Post
Man up. Use a gun suited to the semi-coward black bear (30-30 class), and leave your cannons at home.
And oh,

As a famous "confront what may" guide in Alberta, I assume you've had to track down a few "hit" bears, by clients, on the edge of darkness that made it into a swamp or very thick tangle of brush where you couldn't see where you might plant your next step, and when you had to crawl "in there" to find "blackie", whether it was dead or still alive, you did all that with your 22-250?

And you might want to give a call to the lady doctor here in Ontario to see how she might feel about the "semi-coward" black bear... That's right, you couldn't call her because what remained of her corpse was covered by debris from the forest where she and husband had been attacked by a black bear. Her husband barely survived. That happened in a remote camping area a few years ago in Northern Ontario. And, I could go on....

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
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  #77  
Old 04-23-2017, 02:38 PM
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And, one more thing for everyone else...

Black bears are not ""cowards", and they are statistically more dangerous than grizzly or brown bear. That is, more people have been mauled and killed by blacks than the others.

An adult male can, and does kill not only calf moose, but adult moose! It happens every year here in Ontario and Newfoundland. Any predator that by itself can take down an adult moose is to be greatly respected,if not feared, by anyone hunting them at ground level (I've done plenty of that as well as from blinds and stands). We don't have large open areas where I hunt. It's boreal forest, smamps, ravines, bogs, etc. When a wounded bear gets into any of that mess, you don't do a follow-up with a .22-250. My recommendation for such a scenario is a pump shotgun with Challenger or Brenneke type slugs or a Marlin in .45-70.

And, I've taken perhaps more than my fair share of 'em. ANY bear over 100 lbs is potentially dangerous! An equal weight bear to a man has five times his strength!

It HAS been pointed out, that even small bears can be very, very tough!

Edit to add: a couple of years ago a trapper from Sudbury, Ontario, left home to check his traps. He didn't return home. A search was made and his ATV was found on a trail with the motor still running. Scuff marks around it were followed into the bush where his body was discovered partially consumed and covered by leaves, etc. He was a woodsman of long experience but evidently believed he would never be attacked by a black bear. It's the ones who think they are always safe and don't need protection, that get mauled or killed!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Last edited by 458ONLY; 04-23-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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  #78  
Old 04-23-2017, 04:42 PM
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"Black bears are not ""cowards", and they are statistically more dangerous than grizzly or brown bear. That is, more people have been mauled and killed by blacks than the others."

Not to argue, but statistics are misleading. Like the one where you are in more danger of having a wreck within 20 miles of you home - so that's the statistically more dangerous area. Duh, you spend 98% of you time there so........ I always found that one funny.

Being in the NE there are way more people for the the bears to interact with. Thus the statistic. I would rather face off a 10 foot black bear than a giant Grisly or Brown. Either way, I won't consider myself a coward even if I have my 458! These animals deserve the same respect as an African Lion.
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  #79  
Old 04-23-2017, 06:44 PM
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Wow!

Well, I was looking for a discussion, Look what I got! The Jaquimaman is right, I WASN'T looking for a fight. And, I honestly believe that some of you m have assumed more than a bit, after my questioning the need for anything with 4 in the front of the caliber listing. 45-70 sure! If that makes you feel better. (.416? Not so much.) Jaquimaman is right on another point as well, "everyone has the right to use whatever it takes to make him feel comfortable". I just feel that many hunters are over gunned for the animals they pursue, AND I feel that it reflects poorly on us as a group. Should we offer all our prey a swift death? Absolutely! I simply would rather see that done through skill, than muzzle energy. And I also believe (completely) that it is our duty as hunters to acquire that skill, or to find another hobby. Some people are meant to be hunters, some aren't. Am I dictating who has the right to hunt? Of course not! Nature has already done that. I also think some of you are not reading the posts very carefully. Did I say that I hunted black bears with a 22-250? What I said was "I'll kill any black bear you want with a 22-250". That's a little bit different. I also stated "something in the 30-30 class" was optimal. Did you miss that?
I believe that many of us have gotten fat and lazy. We'd rather BUY hunting ability, though gadgets, super scopes and monstrous muzzle energy, completely forgetting the virtues handed down to us, those that drew us to hunting in the first place.
By the way, a 7x57 didn't kill Bell's elephants. Skill did!
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  #80  
Old 04-23-2017, 08:58 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Kenai, AK
Posts: 105
Fellas, sometimes what we say isn't as offensive as how we say it. Especially when it's a bunch of alpha males who sniff gunpowder and hunt down their own bloody, red meat. I sure would like to see this boiling pot simmer down some. It's getting a little immature all up in here.
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