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  #21  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:40 AM
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Right on the shims. Long ago we used those sold by Brownell's to level stuff up. Also, in the day we had list of Weaver bases where you could get different bases for the same rifle using different numbers. This allowed using, for example, numbers that allowed higher mounting. I'm glad I missed one of those cockeyed Remington receivers. This is the first time I have heard of this. Looks like who ever was mounting the scope would have noticed such being out of plumb. Weaver, Talley and Warne no more pivoting anything.
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  #22  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:53 AM
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I wonder how much 'ring lapping' is done to correct bad bases?

It wasn't just Remington, H&R Ultras were buffed to pieces as were some post 64 Winchesters.

There's a big difference in a store clerk mounting a scope and a gunsmith mounting a scope right.

NEVER assume the factory drill and tap is right, either! Lay a precision bar across two piece mounts and see how for wrong they are!
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  #23  
Old 03-04-2017, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
since the front ring has two screws, the mount was leveled with the action using the front screws and shims to make it right while the rear was glass bedded. Once the rear was bedded, the front was bedded if shims were needed to make it right. Then both ends are sitting on accurate surfaces to the bore line.
Gotcha.

So I take it you are using a release agent on the bases like you were bedding the action. Yes? Kind of a silly question other wise the bases would be permanent .

I use a Loctite (for Caterpillar) product called "Stud and Bearing Mount". It will take up space to .020" (more than that I think but at least .020") easily, but only really sticks to steel, so Weaver's aluminum bases can be removed easily with a few taps from a small brass hammer.

RJ
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  #24  
Old 03-04-2017, 12:28 PM
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Loctite (for Caterpillar) product called "Stud and Bearing Mount"
The same or very similar product that Remington used on the XMPs and then had to recall 8 years worth of them.
It's been 30 years since I've used LocTite on a gun. I either stake or clean and torque screws correctly. I don't like 'goop' in guns.
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  #25  
Old 03-04-2017, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
The M700 and Weatherby Vanguard use the same bases. This is a Vanguard with a Talley 2 piece Lightweight system (rings are integral with the bases) also very nice and secure.
I was just looking at these! I think they are around 38-40$? I really like the simplicity of these. Do you have any issues with bolt clearance and do you think I will have any issues with the 44mm lens or the "Bell" as I tend to call it? Also this scope comes with a sunshade that I do plan on using. That shouldn't be a problem if the 44mm has clearance?
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  #26  
Old 03-04-2017, 02:54 PM
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Talley 2 piece integral rings and bases

I really think I like these and they look good on your gun! How is the warranty with Talley if there is a fit issue? Or I guess it would be Midway USAs return policy?
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  #27  
Old 03-04-2017, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
The same or very similar product that Remington used on the XMPs and then had to recall 8 years worth of them.
No, it's an anaerobic that fills SPACE, not lock screws. I use it like you use your epoxy to "level" scope bases.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
It's been 30 years since I've used LocTite on a gun. I either stake or clean and torque screws correctly. I don't like 'goop' in guns.
Epoxy isn't GOOP?

RJ
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  #28  
Old 03-04-2017, 03:40 PM
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I know what it IS, I told you what it was used for BUT it caused a recall.

I don't epoxy screws or triggers.

Kmbateman--- Buy Talley stuff from Talley. They have a better reputation than Midway for customer service.
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  #29  
Old 03-04-2017, 03:50 PM
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Now I just have to decide between stainless or black! My scope is Black and my barrel is stainless and my stock is the reverse of yours you have the grey with some black and I have the black with some grey. Decisions Decisions!

Last edited by Kmbateman; 03-04-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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  #30  
Old 03-04-2017, 04:27 PM
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Use what rings?....Measure where?

Actually, Talley numbers for Howa/Weatherby are diffenent from Remington 700''s. There no accounting for this since most folks see them as the same. Talley numbers were used to order Vanguard rings.

Looks like there is a better solution than rocket science for uneven receivers. That solution is to use Burris Signature Rings. These rings are very well designed to cope. Incidentally, how do you measure an uneven receiver?

In this discussion it became a given that receivers are the culprit. It could have been that my mounts were faulty where the receiver is correct. Motivated by this discussion went to shoot rifles with Warne and Talley Mounts this afternoon. Personally, I'm convinced that, for me, these rings are the best. YMMY. Take care and be safe.

Last edited by William A. Reed; 03-04-2017 at 04:30 PM.
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  #31  
Old 03-04-2017, 04:30 PM
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I can only say that I've topped two Weatherby Vanguards with Talleys made to fit either. Both worked well lasted a long time and sighted in just right.
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  #32  
Old 03-04-2017, 04:53 PM
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Incidentally, how do you measure an uneven receiver?
All but very few rifles have 'un-even' receivers. The Model 30 Remington and Model 788 are straight and the Shultz and Larsen. Most have a lower rear bridge. Those offsets and the radius is what determines how scope bases are machined. I noticed there's sometimes a gap between the rear of the mount and the rear bridge if the front two screws were tight. I also noticed the rear screw of the front ring cause the mount to bend if the rear bridge was too high. The shop I was in had probably a thousand Redfield and Browning (Burris) scope mounts. The FIRST thing to do is measure the mount and compare it with another one. I've found wrong ones in every brand. If the mounts are the same it means the action is miss-cut or over buffed or badly ground or bent, warped, cracked or broken. The worst of course are the M-98s that suffered a Bubba attack on the rear bridge trying to make it like an FN.
Remember, I was working on guns from three states and a LOT of them were from stores that had a guy that could mount a scope and boresight it but no other skills or tools.

I have a big machine parallel bar in the top of the tool box. I automatically lay that on all scope base sets to see if the scope base(s) are level. It's common to see front and rear scope base holes off by enough to make a difference in accuracy. Many people like Weavers because one base can lean one way and the other the other way but the rings will clamp down and make it work where a rotary Redfield type wont.

The ONLY reason for the Burris take-up rings is the terrible job the factories do in keeping things straight.

Here's what I know for sure and I've proven it more than a dozen times. If I make a set of scope rings to fit Talley, or Conetrol rings and machine the mounts on the receiver, AND, the receiver and barrel are straight with each other, I can lay a brand new scope in the rings, tighten it down and go shoot within 2 inches of dead center at 100 yards without bore-sighting or changing the scope in any way. New scopes come centered. If the mounts and rings are RIGHT, there is no 'zeroing' to do outside an inch or two. NOW, what's different about the new rifle, new mounts, new rings and new scope that wont hit the paper? What is not straight?

Its important to note that Dave Talley is the one that first told me he'd made perfectly straight scope mounts. I'd never tried it until then...about 1985.
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  #33  
Old 03-04-2017, 06:45 PM
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Error...I did it.

An apology: I double checked the Talley numbers and they are the same. Seems like this number notion came from the Weatherby forums. My order was for the Vanguard mounts. All this was several years ago but as things stand now the part numbers appear the same.
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  #34  
Old 03-05-2017, 05:51 AM
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I was wondering about that. I saw them for the different riffles but they looked exactly the same and was not sure if there was some small difference in measurement or something something that couldn't be seen to the eye. Thank you all for the great advice! I'm going to go with the 2 piece Talley integral 1" high mount rings. And I think that will keep my clearances good and will work later on if I go with a bigger scope. I have many other rifles for those other areas I hunt under 100yrds. I picked up this rifle and chose this scope combination just for those days I want to hunt those 3-400 yard cut cornfields and be able to take a shot across the field on a nice bucks if it presents itself. Thanks again for all the great feedback it really helped! I had never even heard of Talley before this!
Thanks,
Kevin
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  #35  
Old 03-05-2017, 07:14 AM
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J BELK,
Where is Talley located (what state)? And can they (Dave) be reached during regular business hours Mon-Fri?
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  #36  
Old 03-05-2017, 09:48 AM
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They're in South Carolina and have a regular guy on the help desk that probably knows what works for more scope combinations that anybody on the planet.
Home - Talley Manufacturing

Dave Talley was an original Charter Member of the American Custom Gunmaker's Guild. At that time he was in Glenrock, Wyoming which he said was the geographic center of the N. American Prairie Dog population....and he and his wife Deb did their best to 'hollow out that tree'. Dave and Ted Blackburn were the first to embrace CNC machining centers for making custom gun parts for the trade. Until they came along, if you wanted scope bases and custom rings or a barrel band swivel or M70 safety for a M98, you made it.
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  #37  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Nobody should depend on a scope mount to fix a flexible action but the fact that a truss DOES stiffen any action is just mechanical fact. There are formulas to calculate it, even.
Do you have some data to support this notion? Harold Vaughn addressed this exact issue in his work, Rifle Accuracy Facts, and in his work the 4 tiny screws don't have the strength to hold the alleged 'truss' tightly enough to provide any support. He silver soldered a steel 1-piece base to the action, and that worked to stiffen the receiver. His receiver and barrel were instrumented with strain gauges and accelerometers to measure the effects of a number of things he tested.

You may be right about a bedded vs un-bedded base, but the only data I have encountered don't support your claim. This was disappointing to me in the past since at one time I had hopes of stiffening from a 1-piece base, but it apparently isn't true.
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  #38  
Old 03-05-2017, 10:10 AM
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It is a mechanical fact that a popsicle stick attached by rubber bands DO have a stiffening effect. THAT is mechanical fact. I NEVER said it made any difference in a rifle action, in fact I suggested it could be the figment of some gun writer's imagination.
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  #39  
Old 03-05-2017, 12:01 PM
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Take a look at Burris' Signature Zee rings with (additional purchase) Pos-Align inserts. The rings are not cheap, but I own 3 pair and they're very nice. Weaver style
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  #40  
Old 03-05-2017, 02:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
I NEVER said it made any difference in a rifle action, in fact I suggested it could be the figment of some gun writer's imagination.
Here's what you wrote that made us think you did say exactly that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk
Glass bed the mount with the screws just tight enough to locate the mount. THEN the mount makes the action stiffer.
I was simply hoping there was some testing I was not aware of, which showed that the theory translated into reality.
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