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  #41  
Old 03-05-2017, 02:35 PM
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It DOES make it stiffer. That's how RR trestles are built, but you can't measure it and it makes NO difference in any practical manner. If you want a stiffer action, sleeve it to keep the added structure centered to the bore.

If any scope mount was going to help an action it would be the David Miller one piece base and rings.

Straight, Solid and Square equals Accuracy.
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  #42  
Old 03-06-2017, 05:08 AM
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LOL!!!
'It does!'
'I NEVER said it does!'
'It does!'
You're a funny fellow, Jack. :-)

The only testing I've seen shows that it doesn't, so until more or better testing shows that it does, the wise rifleman might write this theory off as being _potentialy_ strictly accurate, but completely untrue. Or, accurate when applied correctly (via a joint such as a silver soldered one), but not when misapplied.
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  #43  
Old 03-06-2017, 05:19 AM
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When you pee in the ocean the sea level rises. How much?

It's pretty easy for those that do algebra to calculate EXACTLY how much extra resistance to bending you get by attaching a top scope mount. Parts of that equation will be the cross section of the mount and the action and HOW they are attached to each other. Bridge members and buildings are riveted for a very specific reason. The same calculations can be made with a bolted assembly by rearranging numbers.

The top mount becomes a "strut" or "bridge member". The scope does too. If you don't see that simple mechanical fact pliers must be a total mystery!
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Last edited by JBelk; 03-06-2017 at 05:25 AM.
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  #44  
Old 03-06-2017, 06:18 PM
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I know the theory well, possibly better than you(?). You're the one making simultaneous claims that it does and that you "NEVER said it (does)" stiffen the action. That's what you got called on by some, or asked for data by others, and since then you've been working very hard trying to distract people by obfuscating whether or not the theory translates into a reality, rather than just clarifying the fact that there's this theory about trusses which doesn't translate into on-target results in a rifle. Whenever you're ready to let that go...

If at some future point you encounter some testing data on this topic that suggests it _does_ make an on-target difference if you bed the base, or alternatively if you choose to avail yourself of the testing data I've pointed you to, go ahead and post up again.
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  #45  
Old 03-06-2017, 06:31 PM
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I pointed out rather clearly that MISS MATCHING of scope mounts to the action results in LOOSE mounts and suggested a way to remedy it and to solve that well known problem. That bedding makes the truss portion of the unit more SOLID to the gun and that is better for accuracy by any measure or protocol. Bending mounts and actions to make them conform is where INaccuracy comes from.

Do your own testing if you like. I don't like one piece mounts myself. If you don't like what I report please ignore the rest of my post instead of making a fool of yourself.
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  #46  
Old 03-06-2017, 06:32 PM
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Calm down, Jack. You're assuming too much and not thinking or reading clearly.
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  #47  
Old 03-07-2017, 03:19 AM
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Windage and Elevation?

I get the point about correcting mounts to compensate for poorly made receivers. Windage OK. How about elevation within 2". Looks the elevation would best adjusted using the scope. No doubt having the unmounted scope centered does make the job easier. In my experience repaired scopes are returned by the makers center along with test of adjustments etc.
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  #48  
Old 03-07-2017, 05:45 AM
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WAR--
By FAR the most problematic scope mounting jobs are on remodeled military rifles. Mausers especially suffer due to the weird shape of the rear bridge. FN did away with the clip guide in 1951 and so also did away with the guide hump. At that point, the offset was 'set' by FN at .180, but military actions are mostly .145 to .160. SO, when somebody grinds the guide hump off, what is the offset? What is the offset of scope mounts?

I use the drill and tap jig to figure out scope mounts. Simply level and square the action in the fixture and then use straight-edges and levels to see what needs done with the scope mounts.

It's common to have one end or the other off level side to side. With two piece mounts, usually a couple of center punch marks on the low side will level the mount up so it can be 'bedded' straight.

The "perfect mounts" that Talley started and most custom metalsmiths still make, are machined while mounted ON the receiver. As long as the barrel is straight and straight to the receiver, the bullet hits within two inches at a hundred without adjusting it off center.

Here's a M722 Remington with Conetrol bases machined in place. The 6.5-20X Leupold was used when mounted but centered first.
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  #49  
Old 03-07-2017, 06:40 AM
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Elevation?

OK, we go to lengths to make sure the mounts are level and parallel with the bore-as much as possible. OK, the windage is 2" away from POA and easily corrected with scope windage adjustment. How about the elevation? Is the elevation adjusted in the base? If this adjustment is possible it would be to my benefit to know how it's done. Thanks for your help.
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  #50  
Old 03-07-2017, 06:47 AM
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A good question, too!

I strive for level with the bore but you can 'build in' elevation by using the same formula as for adjusting open sights.

Use the distance between the front and rear contact area of the bases as 'sight radius'. Five inches is close on all centerfires. SO, if you want to dial in 10 MOA of 'slope' to the mount, the equation would be:

5 x 10 = 50 divided by range in inches, 3600, = .0138" That is the amount of 'out of level downward at the front' the scope base has to be to put a centered scope hitting 10 inches high at a hundred yards.

You could shim the rear base .014 but then the rings are not level with each other. This is where a one piece base and epoxy works great. All you need is a small piece of anything .014 to hold up the rear while the base is epoxy bedded front and rear WITHOUT cinching down any screws...just enough hold the base right until the epoxy sets, then cinch down the screws and the base is fully supported and wont warp.

Edit to add-- Five inch spacing is what's standard for the old target blocks. A five inch sine bar is standard in machine work and sine bar constants are in the Machinery Handbook. The offset for a TRUE MOA, not the approximate inch that we all tend to use, is .00145. So the ten MOA offset we calculated above is actually .0145" What's a half thou amoung friends?
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Last edited by JBelk; 03-07-2017 at 08:39 AM.
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  #51  
Old 03-07-2017, 12:56 PM
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Thanks for the additional information. Take care and be safe.
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  #52  
Old 03-09-2017, 03:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
That's a lot of scope for deer hunting to 100 yards, good luck with it. I have a Vortex Diamondback HP 3-1242 mounted on a Remington Model Seven in .270WSM and used two piece Warne bases with medium Warne permanent rings. Its a very secure set-up and mediums should work with 44mm objective. I'll try to post a pic of the system.

This is another Model Seven in 350RM that was in the room. Its wearing the same type system though, 2 piece Warne bases and 30mm rings just to show you the system.
Agree with the Warne Rings & bases....best and most secure in the business...I use them on every one of my big bore rifles....no negatives to report...
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  #53  
Old 03-09-2017, 09:07 AM
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Mounts and rings

Sir I have used Leupold two piece bases and Burris Signature rings on all my guns for years. I like the Signature rings because they will not leave ring marks on your scope if you decide to change it. Also, they have different thickness' of the inserts if you need to use them to get the rifle bore sighted before final sight in.
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  #54  
Old 03-10-2017, 11:25 AM
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Lately I've been using Brownells TSR rings with Weaver or Picatinny one-piece bases with good results.

Luisyamaha
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  #55  
Old 03-11-2017, 06:33 AM
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A bit on LocTite... Don't recall using it on cars much other than maybe to afix a bearing. Now on the 45 degree solid mounted 100 cu in motor on the warm weather bar hopper that's a whole nutter story, I buy LocTite by the quart for that. Tends to leak parts at a high rate if it isn't used. Never had to use it on any scope / bolt gun but on the violent acting AR the jury is still out. Haven't needed to yet.
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  #56  
Old 03-11-2017, 06:37 AM
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My knowledge base of 'warm weather bar hoppers' is a little shy. Could you fill it in some? Wot de 'ell is dat?

I've been watching too many STOL youtube vids of planes landing on sand bars. You mean your motor sickle is shedding parts?? Nyloc nuts AND loctite!!
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Last edited by JBelk; 03-11-2017 at 06:47 AM.
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  #57  
Old 03-11-2017, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
My knowledge base of 'warm weather bar hoppers' is a little shy. Could you fill it in some? Wot de 'ell is dat?

I've been watching too many STOL youtube vids of planes landing on sand bars. You mean your motor sickle is shedding parts?? Nyloc nuts AND loctite!!
So I had to google what STOL was. Watched a video and holeeey cheeet! That's pretty amazing.
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  #58  
Old 03-11-2017, 12:54 PM
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STOL aircraft are facinating, indeed. Youd enjoy seeing a C130 with JATO. Google Fat Albert JATO takeoff 2009 and have a look-see
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  #59  
Old 03-11-2017, 01:06 PM
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I've got a friend that has one of these on order. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzqkSx9d1_8

The co-founder of the aircraft company is a renowned back country pilot that does crazy stuff for fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeQP-H_31JQ
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