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  #401  
Old 01-10-2017, 05:30 AM
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My point...


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I meant no criticism of the 303 or of Enfields. A comparison of US military arms and those of other countries is difficult. This situation is caused by continued use, rebuilding, and other forms of use and abuse plus Bubba attacks. If anything, all that under loading of military rounds has to with the litigious character of Americans. In one instance a cartridge varied greatly from the accepted European standards. I agree with you on fit and finish. On the other hand quality of these entry level firearms has become better. Compare a thirty year old Winchester or Remington entry level firearm to those made today. I'm not real crazy about most plastics in firearms. If I recall correctly our German friends were the first to use large scale stampings in military firearms. This started an avalanche of stamped parts. Previously, their use in America had been mainly limited to "boy's rifles" and the like. I was shooting my #1 H in 375 H&H yesterday and found no fault with the castings.

This is my point: It sounds as if we are comparing hand built rifles to the $275.00 Savage's, Mossberg's and Remington's. How about we throw Kimber or Cooper and the like into the mix. How about we throw C. Sharps and Shiloh into our discussion then make a comparison. Also, how much would a domestic rifle cost finished to the level of your Musgrave? I always wanted an original Lee Speed Sporter.
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  #402  
Old 01-10-2017, 06:25 AM
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W.A.R. - completely understood, my friend - much of my last post was for general consumption by the core of attackers and their silent supporters against anything positive being said about this underrated action and original cartridge and wildcat versions. They do not like to read that it stands shoulder to shoulder with the excellent and well known Mausers or anything else. There will always be a belittling, emotional and non-factual based attack to cause a response in the hope that the forum administrators will lock the thread and in that way they in fact aim to control the forum ethos - one of insolence and poor debate / discussion skills.
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  #403  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MusgraveMan View Post
W.A.R. - completely understood, my friend - much of my last post was for general consumption by the core of attackers and their silent supporters against anything positive being said about this underrated action and original cartridge and wildcat versions. They do not like to read that it stands shoulder to shoulder with the excellent and well known Mausers or anything else. There will always be a belittling, emotional and non-factual based attack to cause a response in the hope that the forum administrators will lock the thread and in that way they in fact aim to control the forum ethos - one of insolence and poor debate / discussion skills.
i'm not college edumacated, tried it for 1 1/2 years, didn't like it. what i did do(sometime in college)is put myself into the US army. since being a combat engineer, i learned to build things(its much easer to destroy things). so i went into heavy construction. i would labor, be a dump truck drive, excavate(being either a back hoe or an excavater), skid steer, bulldozer, front end loader...you name it, i've likely did it. was i the best ever? nope! i was kind of the jack of all trades, the master of none. i was young (39y.o.) when i had my stroke. i've had a 15% chance of living, which i've done and considered myself a lucky [email protected]#$h. i try not to(i said try!!!!) belittle anyone. its been only 5 years since i had my stroke. it has taken away nearly all of my speech and 75-80% of my right leg/arm. i do walk a little( i do NOT use a wheelchair) and i do talk(i do write better) a little. i find the 303 brit interesting although i don't have it.

i've shot a 30-30, 30-40 krag, 308, 30-06, 300 savage, 300 win mag, 30 carbine...and others.i have never shot a 303 british, even tho i want too. i think that the 303 has had a bad reputation(it deserves better). during the mid to late '80s it was said that the 303 was nothing more than a piece of junk. the reciever, bolt, barrel... cracks, comes apart, doesn't fire, unaccurate... whatever( i think it was during PA deer season '84-85). i was told(i was 12 or so years old) not to buy one. i would be better off using a 30-30 or an '06. even 303 ammo back then was scarce.

now i know alot more than i did years ago. the 30-40 krag has become one of my favorites. although my krag has and still does, a good reputation. although the krag might crack the barrel lug, locking lug, blow up in your face due to bad reload....the krag hasn't suffered as much as the 303.

old cartridges(which i luv) are better than super dooper magnumitis cartridges today. although i "want" a 50-70 government in a springfield trapdoor m1866, a 500 linebaugh in a tc encore with a 23" MGM barrel is alot better finalancially.

but i'm done. i just wish to say i like the 303 british and i do want the conversation to continue...
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  #404  
Old 01-10-2017, 01:56 PM
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Life is too short....

Life is too short: It's too bad that we cannot function without these intrusions. Some of these things are worth reading twice to avoid quick judgements. Others appear to be acting out like hitting the baby highchair with the a table spoon. Those folks have earned the ignore button. We do ramble in our conversations. That's different than deliberately changing the subject-hijacking. Many of us have learned to slyly change the subject dealing with problem women in our lives. That's there not here. Me, I'm packing up my first Remington to be sent back in the recall. Take care and be safe.
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Last edited by William A. Reed; 01-10-2017 at 01:58 PM. Reason: About the same....
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  #405  
Old 01-11-2017, 02:50 AM
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Some more .303, and some plans

There may be another new Lee Enfield on my horison: a .356" or .375" based on the .303 case as a close in leopard stopper and for camp meat hunting in Mozambique. It will be on a No.4 Mk.1 action. The idea formed as I am planning a lever action .35-30/30 for deer size bushbuck and impala.

If the Australian members have any experience with such a conversion please talk to us.

Some more interesting photos:

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-20141213_095644-1-1.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-303-cartridges.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-images.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-4534897_01_british_303_rifle_and_50_plus__640.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-dsc00509.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-db24ec4056aabd523ce83f514c813ca0.jpg
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"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
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  #406  
Old 01-11-2017, 09:44 AM
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Just a point of interest to me that maybe those in the Commonwealth can answer---SMLE target rifles were offered by BSA and Holland and Holland in ".303 or .315 (8mm)" bore sizes, but I don't see any ammunition loaded that way.

There were three different loadings called ' Government, Military, or Sporting cartridges' (by Jeffery) but no mention of 8mm bore sizes or other 'wildcats' built off it.

According to Cartridges of the World, BSA built a Lee in .375 H&H Flanged Nitro Express. H&H put that cartridge in the Mannlicher rifles and not the Lee.

There seems to have been very few sporting rifles made on the Lee design up until about 1925. The Mauser, Mannlicher, Martini and Farquharson actions dominated the catalogs of the 1900 to 1925 period.

It's interesting to see the 'military' rifles offered as 'guard guns' to expeditions. A plain Jane Martini in .303 Brit from Westley Richards was about two pounds each with discounts for quantity. I'll bet a BUNCH of those guns are still rattling around Africa and India.
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  #407  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:18 AM
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The Lee (Enfield) design indeed was only actively "sporterised" about at the time that telescopes became fashionable in South Africa and Australia. Hunters simply used to hunt with their military clad rifles and standard sights. Most of these were done by army and police gunsmiths as on-the-side sources of income. No big production house did any commercialisation on the Lee Enfield actions. My forcast is that this will change in the foreseeable future when or if the thousands and thousands of crated still in cosmoline No.4s can be "liberated" from the local military, and when formalised laboratory testing proves its already field proven ability to handle 62,000 psi+ ammunition as a matter of course in the same way as the '98 Mauser does.

The .303 cartridge was soon used as a sporterised hunting calibre in Mauser type actions including the Pattern 14. Even up to 1964 when I started big game hunting very few hunters used telescopes and the old Mauser '93 and later models were seen side by side with the SMLEs and No.4 models (all in their military cladding), the more modern Mauser '98 "Pĺeziergewehr" (sporting rifle), BSA sporters and Mannlicher Scönauers.

Because SMLES were given away free to "shooting commando's" by the South African Government as they re-equipped with the No.4 Mk.1, and because of the pencil barrel of the SMLE compared to the standard profile barrel of the No.4s, most target shooters / hunters kept the SMLE covered, with its original cork "packing¨ inside, to maintain the accuracy. What many did not know was that the wood needed a lot of oil to maintain the design pressures on the action and particularly the barrel down and up pressure points as was done by the military- and as the wood dried and shrunk in the climatic areas away from the humid eastern coast these rifles would loose their accuracy.

Many .303s were produced by Musgrave in their Mauser based actions as well as the local wildcat that was commercialised, the 6mm Musgrave. A much wider commercialisation of .303 based downsized and upsized calibres were produced in Australia on the Lithgow Enfields. I am still waiting for Shreck to do us a write-up of those - he seems to be saving his sheep from drowning or something.
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"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-11-2017 at 08:34 PM.
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  #408  
Old 01-11-2017, 12:13 PM
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Have not heard of target guns with 8mm bores.
sporters with sportco barrels, field side mounts and parker hale stocks were common,still some nice ones getting around.
Attached Thumbnails
The underrated Three-Oh-Three-img_1430.jpg  
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  #409  
Old 01-11-2017, 03:18 PM
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I've been trying for a week too find a picture of what I thought was a very nice, classy, Lee-based rifle on the sales rack at John Rigby's shop in London is 1985. It was standing with the Mannlichers.

It was a Vickers Bros. marked ".256 Mauser Flanged". The salesman said "Think 7x57R". He didn't say that's what it WAS but I tried to buy it anyway. My boss on that trip didn't have a rifled arms import license, only shotguns or rimfire rifles so we let it go. It was $300 when the exchange rate was really close. It would have been neat to have at that price!
It was a tiny rifle, with a long, skinny barrel and four leaf express sights. The wood was pure, dark, marblecake Circassian walnut with buffalo horn grip and butt and fore-end tip. It had come from India but showed very little use. There was extensive metal work done to trim the rifle up so that it resembled the Mannlichers it was standing with.

I've seen a lot of butcher jobs like my first rifle done on Lee Enfields, carbines and others but that Vickers sporting Lee stood out as being attractive enough to fondle for a lifetime.

I've found no reference to Vickers doing a Lee sporting rifle and can't find one anybody else did one any nicer.
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  #410  
Old 01-12-2017, 12:54 AM
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Not about the .303, but maybe of passing interest

"It was a Vickers Bros. marked ".256 Mauser Flanged". The salesman said "Think 7x57R".

The salesman should have said "think .257 Roberts flanged, "6.5x55" flanged...

The 6.5 X 53 Dutch Rimmed? Maybe that rifle was what what the British listed as the ".256 Mannlicher Flanged" and produced sporting rifles for.

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-6.5-dutch-military.jpg
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"There are no models in a consumer culture that is truly fulfilling." Boyd Varty, in "A Lion Trackers Guide to Life".

"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-12-2017 at 03:17 AM.
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  #411  
Old 01-12-2017, 03:06 AM
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The interest in the USA for the Lee, and later Lee Enfield .303 is very wide

One must just surf the internet to see the number of US based forums and websites and blog spots to appreciate the interest in this rifle and calibre.

Another oldie:

RIA: Remington-Lee Model 1879 ? Forgotten Weapons

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-older-lee01.jpg Remington Lee.

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-older-lee02.jpg Remington Lee

The US Navy adopted an early version of Lee’s action before the British, in 1879, the first rifle ever to use a detachable box magazine, James Paris Lee’s patented invention.

He initially took his design to the Sharps company because Remington was producing the tube-magazine Remington-Keene rifle for military service. Because Lee’s design was an attempt to get away from the tube magazine with all its limitations Remington was not impressed.

Hugo Borchardt at Sharps was able to devise an effective way to manufacture Lee’s box magazine. The Navy’s requirement for 300 guns was put into production but Sharp fell into bankruptcy before they were completed. Meanwhile the Army had rejected the Remington-Keene, and Lee was able to interest the company in his rifle. Remington called it the Remington Magazine Rifle, but today it is known it as the Remington-Lee model 1879. These were mostly bought by the US Navy.

Then followed the Model 1885...
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"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-12-2017 at 06:29 AM.
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  #412  
Old 01-12-2017, 06:46 AM
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".256 Fl. Mauser" as marked on the Vickers rifle with a Lee action is most likely the 6.5x54 Mauser. The DWM catalog list it in flanged or rimless. It was loaded to about 38kpsi with 120 gr. bullet.
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  #413  
Old 01-12-2017, 07:46 AM
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Thumbs up Is this the rarest .303?

Definitely so in South Africa:

Built on a Mauser action by Stotz & Gössl (Stogos) Waffenfabrick and owned by local hunter / collector Org Hamman:

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-very-rare-german-.303-british-built-stogos-mauser-action-owned-org-hamman.jpg

To my eyes that is a beautiful rifle - it fits right in with the South African countryside scene too.
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"There are no models in a consumer culture that is truly fulfilling." Boyd Varty, in "A Lion Trackers Guide to Life".

"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-12-2017 at 09:33 PM.
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  #414  
Old 01-12-2017, 08:44 AM
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The rarest .303 in US made guns is probably the solid bottom single shot Model 54 Winchester. There was one that sold not long ago for more than $35K. Steve Barnett has a Solid bottom M54 in 32WS for sale now.

According to Olsen, there were no commercial M-98 actions made specifically for the .303 British, but they did make actions for rimmed cases which can be converted.

FWIW- The Mauser #6 action is for the 6.5x54 cartridge. There were twenty actions made for specific cartridges in all.
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  #415  
Old 01-12-2017, 06:00 PM
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Other guns chambered for 303 ? ..... cool
Hey MM what about a savage 4 303/338
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  #416  
Old 01-12-2017, 08:00 PM
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As you probably know Shreck, (and particularly with the thicker brass that PMP cases have for the .303 than any other manufacturer on the market) when going to the heavier bullets like the 215gr Woodleigh the .303 catches up rapidly with the 100 ft/sec it is behind the .308W with the 180gr bullet weights. Already not much difference between the Woodleigh 215 gr in the .303 and the 2,250+ ft/sec 220gr from my son's BRNO ZKK 601. The .303 with a 215 gr bullet penetrates deeper than a 7x57 with 175gr under similar conditions. Only hunters who have seen the penetrating ability of the 7x57 175gr bullet on a heavy animal like wildebeest or eland will appreciate the foregoing statement.

History, and mere calculation of pressure value onto the direct, flat surface area of a bullet's base shows that necking out a case always gives better efficiency with the propellant capacity than necking down does when one integrates the new bullet's momentum value with the amount of propellant used. I assume that the 2,350 ft/sec of a .308 Federal 225 gr will be easily surpassed because of the larger volume of the .303 case if the correct fill mass propellant for the required burn rate can be found. If the .303-338 with that weight bullet gives 2,400 ft/sec at 62,000 psi you have the eland killer that the 30-06 with 220 gr bullets is.

The 7x57/7mm-08/.303/.308W already are at the top of the list for large calibre cartridges when it comes to muzzle velocity and penetrating performance (momentum value) as a function of the amount of propellant used.
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"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-13-2017 at 08:53 AM.
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  #417  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:28 AM
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There was a .375 sporting cartridge, which was effectively the.303 case tapering to a straight neck.

BSA chambered No1 type commercial Lee speeds for their interwar period belted magnum cases. The cartridges did not catch on. There's one in the Pattern Room collection which was used in the ideal calibre tests after WW2. It's chambered for the .330 belted BSA case.
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  #418  
Old 01-13-2017, 09:36 AM
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"There was a .375 sporting cartridge, which was effectively the.303 case tapering to a straight neck."


I may be doing exactly that. Seems like at 60,000 psi from the No.4 Mk. 1 it will do a 286gr Peregrine .375" VRG 2/3 bullet at 1,900 ft/sec.
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"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.
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  #419  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:03 PM
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Just stirring MM ,i no you are not a fan of the 338 caliber
personally i like Humpies idea using a 30-06 parent reamer then a change of calliber , a no 4 whealan ? it just goes on and on , whatever you're heart desires.
yours sounds like a little brother to the H&H.
Take some of the over penatration out .
I think the original died out cause of bullet selection.
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  #420  
Old 01-13-2017, 11:13 PM
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The book

Earlier in the thread I mentioned the book recently published in South Africa on the .303 Lee Enfield. It was sold out even before the first publication run was started, so I was too late, having been in the USA when orders were taken.

What I like about this book is that it is not a coffee table style publication to randomly look at gun photos, but is a book to read being in the continuous excellent style of Man-Magnum magazine. The good looking rifle pictured on the one page is a Vrystaat (Free State") 26" Musgrave barreled and stocked No.4, built by Musgrave.

Here are some images of the first pages:

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-magnum-book.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-magnum-book-page2.jpg

The underrated Three-Oh-Three-magnum-book-page3.jpg
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"There are no models in a consumer culture that is truly fulfilling." Boyd Varty, in "A Lion Trackers Guide to Life".

"Many analogies have been drawn between the social insects and human societies. Fundamentally these are meaningless or misleading, for the behavior of insects is rigidly stereotyped and determined by innate, instructive mechanisms; also, insects show little or no capacity for learning".
Lewis Thomas, Associate of the Marine Biologial Laboratory, Woods Hole, Massachusets.

Last edited by MusgraveMan; 01-14-2017 at 03:04 AM.
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